Hours Left
Member
It was much more than that, he put their whole livelihood at stake.
Of course her past transgressions play a part, but to think it was solely a feeling of shame or regret driving her actions is not what I saw at all.
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Mad Men - Season 6 - Sundays on AMC
- Thread starter Cornballer
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Of course her past transgressions play a part, but to think it was solely a feeling of shame or regret driving her actions is not what I saw at all.
ZanzibarBreeze
Member
As aforementioned, I meant "a few thousand" figuratively. Put their whole livelihood "at stake"? The agency was running fine without a car account before. When have we ever seen Joan cry about business before? (Maybe we have, but I can't remember it.) I think the notion that she could be shocked by Don killing off an account -- shocked so much as to be moved to tears -- is off base. It had everything to do with the fact that it was Jaguar specifically; it had everything to do with what she had to do to get that account. Again, would she have lost some money if they hadn't picked up Chevy? Sure. Do we honestly think she would have started crying just over money? Even though she's already made a ton of cash just by being a partner? I just can't subscribe to that interpretation.
Her rant about Don was just stating the obvious. What she was really torn up about was herself and her acts. I like Matt Zoller Seitz's interpretation of it, and mine is pretty much consistent with him, though he places more emphasis on Joan feeling let down by everybody (because none of them appreciate what she had to do to get that account), whereas I wonder if it's not more to do with her and how she feels about herself.
Hours Left
Member
They weren't doing fine without a car. They were struggling. A car account is the key to being noticed by other big companies.
But what I'm saying is that Joan's reaction is a combination of many factors. She obviously has a personal stake in this account, but we have to remember why she did it. It was to secure herself a better position. She is a single mother with a baby, and she thinks it's too late to start from scratch again or try to take a different path. This is her life's course now, and she is doing everything in her power to keep things going smoothly, even trying to actively better the situation.
And then to have all that put in jeopardy because Don can't keep his ego in check, especially since he has almost no right to exhibit any sort of indignant behavior in this situation when compared to her? I do not blame her for lashing out at Don, and I think she had every right to do so. Don did not do it for Joan, or anyone else but himself. I'd be pretty pissed off too if my job, something I had sacrificed a great deal for, was threatened by someone's emotional instability.
If it was just a case of her feeling guilty, she would of broke down long ago. But it's been demonstrated quite frequently that Joan is a very strong person, and one that takes her role in the company very seriously. That is what was threatened, and that's why I think it caused her emotions to get the better of her.
Why are Don's actions so easily attributed to some sort of savvy business acumen, but Joan's are purely a result of deep seeded guilt?
Joan's reaction had two main causes in my mind. First was what she said out loud. That she had to screw that piece of lard to get the account but all she did wasn't worth offending Don's "artistic" sensibilities and titanically inflated self image. Second was the IPO. She was days away from being a millionaire. She started as a secretary and she was this close to being set for life. But Don unilaterally exploded that. I'm surprised she didn't throw a chair at him.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
She should have not been conspiring behind Don's (a partner) back, then! I do agree though that it was as much about the IPO's collapse than anything else. What she said was accurate too, though I agree with Zanzibar that she shouldn't really blame Don for it. Pete and Joan both absolutely nailed Don in their descriptions, though they were also venting at their own failings.
Cornballer
Member
- Poniewozik: Mad Men Character Study: Meet the Old Don. Same As the New Don?
More via the link.
So you can dismiss Bert, Joan and Pete's backroom dealings with the IPO? They are all hypocrites serving themselves. Pete said it himself. "He's already rich he doesn't care about this." Which is a completely false statement. And don't blame Don or Roger for being forced into a dinner with Herb who didn't want Pete there.
Don deserves all the hate for the decisions he makes in his personal life. When it comes to his business decisions and taking the company in a particular direction you can't hate him for that.
Everything he does is for the betterment of SCDP. Pete, Bert, Roger and Joan have been hitching a ride behind Don's bold ideas since day one so I can't help but not feel an ounce of pity when they cry about Don enforcing his power in a situation like this.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Joan finally said what she's always thought, because for the first time it affected her in a very huge way.
Regarding the IPO-- yeah, they should have included everyone, but they hadn't actually done anything yet.
The irony is that if they had tried to go public, even if Don had cowtowed to Herb, they probably still would have had an issue with Vick's leaving. The IPO probably would have failed anyway, or they would have gone public and then tanked.
Regarding the IPO-- yeah, they should have included everyone, but they hadn't actually done anything yet.
The irony is that if they had tried to go public, even if Don had cowtowed to Herb, they probably still would have had an issue with Vick's leaving. The IPO probably would have failed anyway, or they would have gone public and then tanked.
The neighbour doctor was almost like an alternative reality Don in this episode; being the first to do a heart transplant in the US was like his Chevy except he quit when he didn't get it (in his head because of the hospital just like Don would blame the agency). Don could have done the same after Ted shared the truth about what would happen but instead he took the opportunity and turned it around to make it work for him.
Disagree with this, everything Don does is for his own ego. Going public would increase the size of the business, how is that not for the betterment of SCDP? Also you're acting like the rest of the partners do no work which is clearly not true.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Don has cared deeply about making the business a bigger success ever since Lane killed himself. He thought they were doing great but realized they not and people were struggling. That's why he made that big pitch at Dow. He cares more about the business succeeding than anyone else (Roger maybe, except he plays it like a game). He never was happy about Jaguar, especially with what the firm had to do to get it.
Cornballer
Member
- NY Times Auto Blog: Mad Men Shifts Gears
- Business Insider: Don Draper's Fake Ads Are Terrible Compared To Real 1960s Ads
- Business Insider: Don Draper's Fake Ads Are Terrible Compared To Real 1960s Ads
chris121580
Member
Hard to really blame Don when he was against what Joan agreed to do and told her not to do it. It's on her for choosing to go through with it. That shouldn't have to rest on Don's conscience.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I can.
If she made the million they were talking about, she could move to retire, and get away from an environment where she feels she's treated like crap. This is her ticket.
That would be like 6.5 million today.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I agree with the bolded, I think they were all aware of why Don wasn't there and it wasn't because he wouldn't care. It was because he would be totally opposed to being controlled by shareholders.
Don has always been a driving force in SCDP and will continue to be so for the newly merged agency. What I believe however is that more than ever this season has shown that the entire office has been thinking and acting in divergent ways. Going after the ketchup account despite the conflict of interest and the promise to Ken Cosgrove's that they wouldn't, investigating a public offering when Cooper, Joan and Pete were fully aware Don would have likely hated the idea etc...
Don truly has saved the agency at the last moment in many circumstances and this merger will likely go down as another boon in that same vein. My point is that as they grow larger and more familiar with Don's ways I see more deceptive and self-interested actions taking place and I don't think Don will be spared out of respect for who he is. The more desperate and hungry people like Pete get the more I see them having little to lose in betraying him down the line because he really has little to lose in the business if he goes on the way he is.
Perhaps it won't be due to his past but I am still putting my chips on Don getting his just desserts in a worse way than ever before sometime before the season is out.
I forget, do we know how many seasons are after this one? Is it just one or has Weiner not set an end date?
edit: also, Joan was absolutely right to be pissed at Don. Yes, she got a partnership, but she also did it for the firm (which she then had a vested interest in). Don intentionally tanked Jaguar out of his misplaced sense of moral authority. Yes, obviously Joan made her decision, but she did it with certain ends promised to her, ends that Don has deliberately thwarted.
edit: also, Joan was absolutely right to be pissed at Don. Yes, she got a partnership, but she also did it for the firm (which she then had a vested interest in). Don intentionally tanked Jaguar out of his misplaced sense of moral authority. Yes, obviously Joan made her decision, but she did it with certain ends promised to her, ends that Don has deliberately thwarted.
Cornballer
Member
chris121580
Member
In her defense...she's had a shitty go of it most of the show. Lots of horrible things have happened to her to make her be that way however blaming Don is not something she should've done. He's the only one who has always truly been there for her
eh, when has Don ever been there for her? He even admitted that he was scared of her in S3 (the lawnmower episode, I think ?). Just because he never fucked her over (or, for that matter, fucked her) doesn't mean he's been there for her imo.
PhoenixSFT
Member
Man, I don't think I agree with anybody!
Don isn't good at business. This is a repeated theme in the show. Season 3 revolves around him getting a company-defining account dropped in his lap and then blowing it because he can't handle accounts, but there are plenty of other examples of Don losing accounts basically every time he opens his mouth. It's not his job to be good at business. There are other people in the agency for that, and they're generally quite good at their job. You should be able to tell just from the last few episodes that Pete and Roger, at least, are good at their work.
This episode is about trust, and what you know that others don't. Pete and Cooper and Joan knew about the IPO, and if they'd told Don, he might have acted differently -- but they didn't trust his reaction enough to tell him. At the same time, Don is the only one who was actually at the dinner, so he's the only one who saw that Herb is deliberately trying to destroy the account. Herb's previous ploys had the effect of getting Herb stuff he wants; this one can only piss off Don and damage Jaguar's campaign. But Don's record of pissing off clients is so bad that nobody trusts him when he tries to explain that. It's also worth noting that if Don had let him get the local advertising he wanted, he wouldn't be trying to kill the campaign, so he still doesn't get a pass from the perspective of handling accounts. Fundamentally, the conflict between partners is a result of mistrust, which will not go away as a result of this merger.
Joan is absolutely angry more about Don's pretensions to high moral principles than anything else. I didn't even think there was another reading of that scene! Remember, Don is screwing Herb because Herb screwed Joan. He thinks Joan will be happy when he goes into that conference room. But Joan isn't interested in a white knight, and she recognizes that losing Jaguar will not erase the rumors around the company of what Joan did to get Jaguar. As Joan more or less explicitly says, if she can do it, so can Don.
Don isn't good at business. This is a repeated theme in the show. Season 3 revolves around him getting a company-defining account dropped in his lap and then blowing it because he can't handle accounts, but there are plenty of other examples of Don losing accounts basically every time he opens his mouth. It's not his job to be good at business. There are other people in the agency for that, and they're generally quite good at their job. You should be able to tell just from the last few episodes that Pete and Roger, at least, are good at their work.
This episode is about trust, and what you know that others don't. Pete and Cooper and Joan knew about the IPO, and if they'd told Don, he might have acted differently -- but they didn't trust his reaction enough to tell him. At the same time, Don is the only one who was actually at the dinner, so he's the only one who saw that Herb is deliberately trying to destroy the account. Herb's previous ploys had the effect of getting Herb stuff he wants; this one can only piss off Don and damage Jaguar's campaign. But Don's record of pissing off clients is so bad that nobody trusts him when he tries to explain that. It's also worth noting that if Don had let him get the local advertising he wanted, he wouldn't be trying to kill the campaign, so he still doesn't get a pass from the perspective of handling accounts. Fundamentally, the conflict between partners is a result of mistrust, which will not go away as a result of this merger.
Joan is absolutely angry more about Don's pretensions to high moral principles than anything else. I didn't even think there was another reading of that scene! Remember, Don is screwing Herb because Herb screwed Joan. He thinks Joan will be happy when he goes into that conference room. But Joan isn't interested in a white knight, and she recognizes that losing Jaguar will not erase the rumors around the company of what Joan did to get Jaguar. As Joan more or less explicitly says, if she can do it, so can Don.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I'm not saying SC's/SCDP's ads are all great, but this seems like cherry-picking a few bad ones.
I agree that the key point is mistrust. Making the business bigger is the aim of all the partners at SCDP, what I see causing the clash we saw is that Don in particular uses it as a driving force for his own ego while the others don't have a problem with being team players if it will benefit everyone in the long run. Whenever Don needs to work with a team he makes it clear they're working for him and not with him, and that's pretty much how he goes about all aspects of his life. Someone mentioned about Don's face whenever someone disagrees with him and it's a constant reaction that's as funny as it's true, from close family to clients. Obviously all of the partners think of themselves first and foremost, but when it comes to the agency Don is the one who's always making harsh decisions that affect everyone without discussing things first.
I do think it was a bad idea for Joan, Bert and Pete to go about the IPO conversations without informing the others outright, but the entire episode was full of quick dealings and chance circumstances, with characters not aware of what was going on until it was too late, and being at the right/wrong place at the exact time they needed to be. Still not sure how I feel about this actually, having too many of those at once to advance the plot can be overwhelming.
I do think it was a bad idea for Joan, Bert and Pete to go about the IPO conversations without informing the others outright, but the entire episode was full of quick dealings and chance circumstances, with characters not aware of what was going on until it was too late, and being at the right/wrong place at the exact time they needed to be. Still not sure how I feel about this actually, having too many of those at once to advance the plot can be overwhelming.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I think this is incorrect. It is indeed a slight at Don, but it's also a power-play with the other Jaguar guys. He wants control/leverage of that relationship, and is trying to get it by forcing SCDP to go through him. If Don hadn't been insulted (or if Roger had been there), he might have volleyed back with "Ok, as long as your group all approves it."
So this is a two-birds-with-one-stone thing for Herb. Humilate Don, control the ads.
The BI article is taking them all out of context as well.
"In reality, Jantzen was fairly modest in its ads."
No shit sherlock
Cornballer
Member
Unfortunately, it's how a lot of these articles work - choose a title that'll get people to click and then pick the evidence accordingly. I still think it's interesting to see what was actually going on at the time ad-wise.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Oh, I agree. And I like some of the SC/SCDP ones better anyway.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Oh absolutely. There's nothing quite like the satisfaction of Don firing a stupid client. I dying when Megan's mom was practically suicidal in reaction to how stupid Herb's wife was too.
This is a fair point, but I'd observe that Herb ALREADY has control over that relationship. That's the whole reason he can kill the account in the first place! So I don't really get why he would really benefit from even more power over the account. I guess if you think Herb really thinks that he can write better copy than Don this makes sense, but I don't think Herb is stupid, just corrupt. It seems to me that he should know that, while Don is a dick, he's actually pretty good at writing ads, so I don't see that Herb benefits from having control over the copy except inasmuch as it allows him to jerk around Don.
Cornballer
Member
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
He can kill the account, but as seen by his first appearance this season, he can't steer it. This is an attempt to steer things to his benefit.
Herb wants to funnel the ad money and copy towards the dealerships, where presumably he stands to gain from their short-term success from that in some way. He doesn't have the control to do this on his own, which is why he's trying to go the long way around through SCDP and his already corrupt relationship to them.
All of this is why it's a toxic client that was going to end sooner or later anyways.
Cornballer
Member
- Rolling Stone Q&A: 'Mad Men' Actor Kevin Rahm (Ted) on Sundays Game-Changing Episode
Business is two guys in a bar seizing an opportunity. Business is urging a future partner to fire the core team to found a new agency. Business is responding to losing a company defining account by writing a letter of disgust at an entire industry that the account belonged to.
The ad business is about selling great copy and increasing product sales for an account. The ad business is in large led by creative. Don is ultimately the brains behind creative. He had his moment with Ginsberg but his work was a campaign they went with anyway so who cares?
You call it Don's ego but when it comes down to business he is a pioneer. Whether he is driven by ego or not is irrelevant. Look where his actions has gotten the company. Its expanded tremendously from its start in a Manhattan hotel suite. Its acquired large prestigious accounts. Its been a team effort but Don has had his hands on the steering wheel the entire time. Without Don, Pete would be some expendable shmuck in a larger firm. Same with everyone else.
To say Don isn't keen on business is crazy. And whether everyone likes it or not they are working for Don because he is the most important person at the firm.
Dominican Power
Member
Pete's father in law was also a scumbag.
At this point, are there any characters on this show who aren't utterly terrible human beings? Peggy...?
joeyjoejoeshabadoo
Member
GoldenEye 007
Member
I was hoping he had a heart attack.
Don is perfect for the firm and the way he functions is a huge part of their success, I wasn't trying to point his personality as a negative jab on that front, it's a fact.
I talked about the team and the business, but my point was regarding why they reacted so loudly in that argument in a way that clearly had personal-level issues involved. Pete and Joan specifically were way past discussing business-only in that scene and were airing pent-up feelings with what they were saying. It had more than one layer, they reacted to what Don did in how it affected both the agency and themselves. The human drama is always intertwined with how they function after all, and the other explosions in this episode also had to do with trust and respect (the Vicks and Jaguar fallouts).
Don's ego is irrelevant to how the business plays out in the end, but it's relevant in his relationship with the partners (and his family), and the cracks are getting wider.
Putting your child up for adoption makes you a terrible person?
sixteen-bit
Member
right? it's not like she left it in a trashbag at the local walmart
ZedIndyLil
Member
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