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[Balb]

She made some good (if not elementary, if you're already knowledgeable about subjects related to the sociology of gender) but I didn't agree with her connection of the "mercy killing" trope and domestic violence. Even she seemed to admit that it was a stretch by putting a lot of disclaimers before making that leap.

If nothing else though the video shows that a lot of games from this generation have crap-tier storytelling.

 

[Tomat]

I'm curious about the video but I don't want any spoilers

 

[DragonSworne]

This guy debunked her last video thoroughly.

First time I've seen this video and his rebuttal still holds.

 

[K.Sabot]

Which character deaths have actually effected you as a player? Not how many female character have died or almost died, but which characters dying actually effected you?

Also, plenty of male characters get taken out as an attempt to illicit a emotional response. Mass Effect has that, and you can even play as a female character.

Fuckin Yakuza 3... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

[CaptainSchwann]

I can't make a statement on that until I played the game. There are many ways to be one dimensional. For all I know, Jenny could be the only woman in the game and she is treated in a unique way due to her being female. My point was that it is incorrect to say that Jenny wasn't "jackie's" because the relationship was well written.



Well, the one scene she showed was the villain saying he's going to take whats his, so that at the very least character does consider her jackie's possession and I don't know if there is anything in the game that disproves that. I wouldn't say that invalidates her position in the narrative as a possession...

but, for my 2 cents, I'm not sure that's such a bad thing, from a narrative perspective, fyi. Jackie is perfectly okay to consider Jenny his possession (which would be misogynistic, but that can be treated as a character flaw), and the best way to counter this would be to show outside evidence that she isn't. For example, find her diary notes where she talks about her life outside Jackie or outright defying him in some way. Something like that.

Again, play the game before dishing out critique. That particular line wasn't aimed at Jenny.

Spoiler

He was talking about taking The Darkness

 

[flatearthpandas]

It is when it is disproportionately affecting one gender over the other. And when every main character is a man...

...man, I sound like I liked this a lot more than I actually did, but I really just hate stupid arguments about it that show no attempt to actually understand what she was talking about. Because then we can't actually point out what she really DID get wrong

That isn't a product of sexism so much as a product of the fact that a lot of stories in general are indeed male power fantasies. I don't think this is a point that can really be argued. It is true, but that doesn't make it sexist or wrong. The shock of murder or kidnapping or whatever disproportionately affects women because the stories are created by males largely for males.

Could we stand to have a broader spectrum of mainstream storytelling? Hell yes we could. But it seems silly to accurately make a point, i.e. a lot of stories [in videogaming too] are male power fantasies, and then spend so much time harping off about non-harmful effects of the point you just made. I feel like the point of the video isn't even about the cause, it's just an endless litany of the effects.

Illuminate people to the existence of the trope, by all means. Open their eyes to the endless repetition of the same things that exists throughout all media and then either move on to the next trope or go somewhere meaningful with it.

 

[balohna]

Video wasn't perfect, but as expected male gamers are ripping it to shreds. Can we not take some criticism for our medium and just listen? You don't have to agree.

That being said, lolwtf @ Youtube taking it down. Did someone from here or /v/ complain?

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

Finished watching it.

All I am thinking right now is that I could have just read the relevant pages on TvTropes.com and gotten the same experience and insight.

Yeah. Granted, I got about 20 minutes in and now see its been removed, so I wasn't able to finish it.

For all the hullabaloo over these videos, I just don't find them terribly insightful. I'm just kind of watching them and nodding my head and waiting for her to say something profound but instead its mostly a steady stream of cherry picked clips to support whatever trope she came up with.

I just really dislike how obsessed people get over "tropes" in general. Yes, they exist and yes, they're often silly and/or stupid. But especially for analysis sake, I'd think there is a better way to analyze how females are represented in games than making up these "tropes" and "trope cocktails" as she said.

There just isn't much actual analysis in these videos and what is there is pretty basic.

 

[A Link to the Past]

That face palm was so forced.

Curious that she didn't bring up The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker for bucking some of the trends that the series has been so known for.

lol wtf someone filed a DMCA claim against it? (heeeeeey I was watching that!)

The Wind Waker transforms Tetra into a pure damsel-in-distress. Once she becomes Zelda, her character loses all of the design they worked into her, and she just became a regal princess who gets kidnapped.

 

[Mesoian]

I'm throwing this up on NicoNico right now. Should be done in about 15 minutes.

That face palm was so forced.

Curious that she didn't bring up The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker for bucking some of the trends that the series has been so known for.

lol wtf someone filed a DMCA claim against it? (heeeeeey I was watching that!)

Pfft, I know both those people.

 

[DragonSworne]

Video wasn't perfect, but as expected male gamers are ripping it to shreds. Can we not take some criticism for our medium and just listen? You don't have to agree.

That being said, lolwtf @ Youtube taking it down. Did someone from here or /v/ complain?

She is spoiling games without the permission of publishers maybe?

 

[Jooney]

I'm going to try to stay out of this thread and any of it's horrible thread-spawn this time.

Last time was just too much.

But I can assume this post will have utility in this thread as well.

Edit: Wait it got taken down because of a copyright complaint? Ell oh fucking ell. If there's one thing that pisses me off more than sexist nerds, it's overbearing copyright bozos. I definitely need to stay out of this thread.

Just wanted to say the linked post is great. Thanks for writing it.

 

[History]

For a lot of that you can replace "women" with "human" and it would basically be saying the same thing. The difference would be that it wouldn't fit under this hot topic and would be an overall critique on videogames being violent. She more or less makes this her point by the time she starts naming indie games.



The game is more focused on Jackie (he gives long monologues and stuff) and is not trying to build up the world like a BioShock or Mass Effect is. This is a weird ass solution to a problem that may not even exist. The only reason you are even looking at the Darkness weird is because OTHER games don't have enough female protags doing the same thing.

I think you must understand that women are humans. I think this shows that even though her points are generic, at heart, she's saying that people should have human decency.

 

[Wario64]

@femfreq 2:28 PM
Looks like my harassers abused YouTube's flag function to get my new Tropes vs Women video removed. Not the first time it's happened.

@femfreq 2:29 PM
We are looking into the issue and will update you all as soon as we know the full story and can get the video restored. #tropesvswomen

 

[A Link to the Past]

Youre generalizing the entire Youtube population to those people? Wow.

I guess in the future I will just ignore the fact that almost every popular video on YouTube devolves into racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, death threats, trolling, flaming, disruptive posting, etc. YouTube is a cesspool, and the people who defend it are too blind to be aware of it. Can you honestly say that for her videos, the discussion was in any way constructive?

 

[Gutsy Frog]

She kind of negates her own point when she says that we're not animals that automatically mimic what we see. Violence in games doesn't equate to violence in real life. I do agree these tropes are used to often (and often poorly), but attaching them to a larger problem within society is a pretty weak argument.

The idea that "video games are fiction, they have no effect on us" is very silly, I think. Absolutely everything we enjoy has some kind of message, whether intentional or not, and says a lot about us as people.

At the same time, linking the recurring "characters who are demonically possessed or otherwise taken over by a malevolent force and the player is forced to kill them" plot point to "she was acting up so I beat the shit out of her HEH B)" seems like a pretty big stretch that I don't buy at all. The context is VASTLY different.

 

[K.Sabot]

Maybe she can take the spoilers out and reup it so I can watch it please.

 

[flatearthpandas]

That's really stupid if true. I wonder if it's just a knee-jerk thing.

Not knee-jerking so much as totally automated.

Wouldn't be surprised if those Pandora's Tower endgame videos (grrr) tripped it, since Nintendo did just put the system in place recently and cutscenes with no voiceover dialogue are the easiest triggers.

 

[Shinta]

The Wind Waker transforms Tetra into a pure damsel-in-distress. Once she becomes Zelda, her character loses all of the design they worked into her, and she just became a regal princess who gets kidnapped.

This is ridiculous. She isn't kidnapped because she's a woman. She's kidnapped because her true identity - which she had been hiding the entire game - is revealed. She doesn't "lose all her design." And since when is "regal" a pejorative term? Zelda is a princess ... unless you want her to "lose all her design" over the last 25 years.

That's like saying Aragorn "loses all his design" at the end of Return of the King.

 

[ElFly]

First time I've seen this video and his rebuttal still holds.

*checks*

I skipped ahead and saw the ending of double dragon neon, that sarkessian discusses in the new video.

So the guy debunked shit.

 

[partyphone]

First time I've seen this video and his rebuttal still holds.

No it doesn't. But you guys keep tooting this horn. It's hilarious.

 

[Veelk]

Again, play the game before dishing out critique. That particular line wasn't aimed at Jenny.

Spoiler

He was talking about taking The Darkness

I apologize for the line in particular then, but I don't see how it takes away that he is treating jenny as an object though. She is a lever used to bring out Jackies darkness or whatever, right? I doubt that he killed her for no reason, so that means he was using her for something. To use a person as a means to an end is to dehumanize them. And she was only useful because of she was jackie's girlfriend. In essence, he saw her as Jackie's and killed her for that reason to get the reaction he wanted.

 

[Takuya]

I guess in the future I will just ignore the fact that almost every popular video on YouTube devolves into racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, death threats, trolling, flaming, disruptive posting, etc. YouTube is a cesspool, and the people who defend it are too blind to be aware of it. Can you honestly say that for her videos, the discussion was in any way constructive?

It's not supposed to be constructive. It's not called the discussion section, it's called the comments section.

 

[MormaPope]

She needs to talk to other people that play games for some of her assertions.

The player won't always feel like "Shit, I got to save this person because this happened!". I sure as shit didn't care about any of the story in Dishonored for the most part. I didn't feel motivated by revenge, I felt motivated to quickly teleport on rooftops and fuck around with the stealth systems in the game.

 

[partyphone]

Maybe she can take the spoilers out and reup it so I can watch it please.

Hard to talk about something when you can't talk about it.

It's super hilarious how people have turned spoilers into a fetish.

 

[Zoe]

@femfreq 2:28 PM
Looks like my harassers abused YouTube's flag function to get my new Tropes vs Women video removed. Not the first time it's happened.

@femfreq 2:29 PM
We are looking into the issue and will update you all as soon as we know the full story and can get the video restored. #tropesvswomen

How could it have possibly happened that way to this video and not her previous one?

 

[Mesoian]

She needs to talk to other people that play games for some of her assertions.

The player won't always feel like "Shit, I got to save this person because this happened!". I sure as shit didn't care about any of the story in Dishonored for the most part. I didn't feel motivated by revenge, I felt motivated to quickly teleport on rooftops and fuck around with the stealth systems in the game.

But that's a failing of the game, because you were SUPPOSED to care about that story.

How could it have possibly happened that way to this video and not her previous one?

Most of the games were older, they're not active IP's, most don't even have owners anymore. And most importantly, none of them are currently being sold for 60 bucks.

 

[andregnreis]

1 - Isnt the woman in the refrigerator plot just an easy way for a developer to get their game going and dont care too much about a story? A lot of time I think it is, but in some points it can be amazingly done, like in Max Payne 1 and 2.

2 - Dont developers usually use more male leads just because it sells more for their game? I mean, even some people behind Naughty Dog were afraid that Ellie was on the front cover. Maybe it isnt even the developer that needs to be blamed, but consumers that look for a game with a male lead and hot girls in plate bikinis.

3 - Why complain so much about women in videogames when its the same thing - or maybe worse - in movies and TV series? I mean, even J.J. Abrahms admitted that putting Alice Eve on her underwear in Star Trek 2 was completely unnecessary... but he did it.

 

[polyh3dron]

That face palm was so forced.

Curious that she didn't bring up The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker for bucking some of the trends that the series has been so known for.

"Occasionally they may be allowed to offer the hero a last minute helping hand, or to kick the bad guy while he's down, but these moments are largely symbolic and typically only happen after the core adventure is over, or the danger has passed."

 

[A Link to the Past]

This is ridiculous. She isn't kidnapped because she's a woman. She's kidnapped because her true identity - which she had been hiding the entire game - is revealed. She doesn't "lose all her design." And since when is "regal" a pejorative term? Zelda is a princess ... unless you want her to "lose all her design" over the last 25 years.

Your original argument was that they bucked the trends of the Zelda franchise in this context. Now, you're defending the fact that they simply didn't.

Explain to me the necessity for Tetra to have a different personality. Again, she is no longer feisty, she is no longer independent. Just because you turn out to be a secret Princess does NOT mean that you have to act regal. In fact, the fact that she was the leader of a group of pirates DEMANDS that she not be a very traditional Princess, which she became quite readily.

 

[Rebochan]

I think that arguments about proportionality are entirely pointless. You're not even arguing that the content is bad then. You're arguing about a ratio, literally.

Er...yes. I'm pointing out that disproportionately subjecting female characters to violence is bad. I'm not sure why pointing out that singling out one group for worse treatment is bad should be a problem to you. This isn't even feminist theory, this is common sense.

For example, I don't give Borderlands 2 crap and objected to its inclusion in the video because it's obvious from playing the game that gender is irrelevant to what events happen to what characters. Then again, Anthony Burch is pretty open about thinking of feminist issues in his writing, and he wrote Borderlands (he also critiqued Ico on HAWP a while back.)

Ironically, Tomb Raider (loved it) is exactly that and everyone tried to trash it and say it was sexist.

1) That criticism was from before the game came out and was largely based on some very poor marketing choices.
2) That criticism evaporated when the game actually came out.

1) happened because, as I pointed out, the significantly higher amount of titles that use violence against women to propel their MacGuffin plots is what got people worried that Tomb Raider was taking the same route.

Proportion matters. It establishes a pattern and when we can find a pattern of media utilizing female characters simply as Corpse MacGuffins, it does stand to reason that reducing EVERY significant female character to a Corpse MacGuffin is harmful.

Being offended by a ratio is pointless. These are market driven decisions.

Oh, good, we can just blame the invisible hand of the market for bad writing.

 

[richiek]

The removal was probably related to this: Nintendo going after Youtube Let's Play videos

But the second video barely had any Nintendo games at all. If anything, Anita's first video was pretty much all Nintendo.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah. She should have cut down on the examples to a third or so, and gone indepth. There's a lot of examples that are taken out of context, and aren't really sexist or playing the Damsel in Distress trope in the way she's indicating.

I also find her mention of Persona 4 Arena hilarious, given the game's plot is more or less rescuing a damsel in distress.

Well if you're talking about Labrys, then I disagree.

Spoiler

Labrys is initially kidnapped and dropped into the TV world, but she has freedom going forward; she can literally go anywhere or do whatever she wants as the student council prez. She isn't really "held" by anyone, (well she's held back by her own denial and trauma) and when she is "saved" she contributes to her own rescue by accepting her shadow. In short, she was kidnapped but I wouldn't really call her a DID. A victim of a very strange circumstances heh.

If you're talking about Rise then, lol yeah. Though there was a very good reason why she was captured hehe.

P4A mention was great ♪

 

[balohna]

But that's a failing of the game, because you were SUPPOSED to care about that story.

Maybe, but most truly great games (IMO, anyway) would continue to be great even if the story was shit.

 

[Cymbal Head]

Mods, I beg of you to update the OP when the video is back up so I don't have to wade through the same handful of rationalizations and knee-jerk defensiveness being repeated for 10,000 posts just to see if it's been rehosted.

 

[Zoe]

Most of the games were older, they're not active IP's, most don't even have owners anymore. And most importantly, none of them are currently being sold for 60 bucks.

She's blaming it on harassment, not IP.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It's not supposed to be constructive. It's not called the discussion section, it's called the comments section.

Video creators have the right to shut down the comments section. Explain to me the appropriate time and place to do this, if not to disable the rights of stalkers to make inappropriate comments.

 

[polyh3dron]

1 - Isnt the woman in the refrigerator plot just an easy way for a developer to get their game going and dont care too much about a story? A lot of time I think it is, but in some points it can be amazingly done, like in Max Payne 1 and 2.

Do it with female family members like in Max Payne and God of War?

BAD. Sexist. Women In Refrigerators.

But do it with a male family member like in Heavy Rain?

It's no longer sexist.

 

[K.Sabot]

Is Femfreq making revenue from these videos? That's seems key.

 

[MormaPope]

But that's a failing of the game, because you were SUPPOSED to care about that story.

No I wasn't. You aren't supposed to feel anything while playing a game, a developer may have the intentions of making you feel something, but they don't plan on it.

Why do you think games have a skip cutscene function?

 

[DragonSworne]

*checks*

I skipped ahead and saw the ending of double dragon neon, that sarkessian discusses in the new video.

So the guy debunked shit.

Not really

The Ending scene/credits are viewed as rewards for gamers. Having that particular scene be the ending to the game is actually more impactful than if it wasn't.

Nice try by Anita though.

 

[ElFly]

I'm curious about the video but I don't want any spoilers

The video had a list of spoilers for games

It also spoilers a small part of wreck it ralph

SPOILER WARNING LIST: Major plot points or endings in the following games:

Spoiler

· Bionic Commando (2009)
· Borderlands 2 (2012)
· Breath of Fire IV (2000)
· Castlevania: The Dracula X Chronicles (2007)
· Castlevania: Lament of Innocence (2003)
· Castlevania: Lords of Shadow (2010)
· Dante's Inferno (2010)
· The Darkness II (2012)
· Dead Space (2008)
· Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs The Soulless Army (2006)
· Double Dragon Neon (2012)
· Gears of War 2 (2008)
· God of War: Ghost of Sparta (2010)
· The Godfather: The Game (2006)
· Grand Theft Auto III (2001)
· Hotline Miami (2012)
· Ico (2001)
· Infamous (2009)
· Inversion (2012)
· Kane & Lunch: Dead Men (2007)
· The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006)
· MediEvil 2 (2000)
· Ninja Gaiden 3 (2010)
· Pandora's Tower (2011)
· Prey (2006)
· Resident Evil 5 (2009)
· Shadows of the Damned (2011)
· Tenchu: Shadow Assassins (2009)

 

[Aeana]

But the second video barely had any Nintendo games at all. If anything, Anita's first video was pretty much all Nintendo.

I didn't mean to allude that it was Nintendo's fault, just that in general it seems like copyright claims from gaming property holders seem to be stepping up. Of course, this also could just be due to massive user complaints, too. Could be either.

 

[royalan]

Oh My God, but complaining about spoilers in something like this is childish.

Regardless of what you think of the quality of her work here, this series is designed to be an in-depth dissection of the video game medium and how it relates to women, particularly their depiction.

If you're concerned about spoilers of any sort then, I'm sorry, but this video series (and thread) simply aren't for you.

Geez, this would be like me refusing to read literary analysis of any sort for an English Lit class because of fear of any Faulkner spoilers. Get over it.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Whur da vidio @?

 

[Riposte]

Let me put it like this: If you removed the feminist angle and just said it was about violent games and then said "this is why videogames are harmful" instead of "this is why videogames are harmful towards women" you wouldn't actually need to change much. This is partly due to her losing sight of the damsel trope she says the video is based on and just begins lamenting violence against women in games which feature violence against everyone. Any good examples are drowned out by just how weird and out of context others are and she just floods you with them.

It all comes off as an outsider preaching morals at the community. If this was ever suppose to be about the female gamer perspective (that is, the female gamer who doesn't hate all modern games and just wants to play indie games), then it doesn't look that way here.

 

[Shinta]

Your original argument was that they bucked the trends of the Zelda franchise in this context. Now, you're defending the fact that they simply didn't.

Explain to me the necessity for Tetra to have a different personality. Again, she is no longer feisty, she is no longer independent. Just because you turn out to be a secret Princess does NOT mean that you have to act regal. In fact, the fact that she was the leader of a group of pirates DEMANDS that she not be a very traditional Princess, which she became quite readily.

Why does Aragorn not dress in black rags at the end of Return of the King? Clearly misandrous writers who want to "lose all his design" and feistyness. He's not even smoking a pipe.

He doesn't even have his sword. Totally emasculated.

 

[Aeana]

The video had a list of spoilers for games

It also spoilers a small part of wreck it ralph

SPOILER WARNING LIST: Major plot points or endings in the following games:

· Bionic Commando (2009)
· Borderlands 2 (2012)
· Breath of Fire IV (2000)
· Castlevania: The Dracula X Chronicles (2007)
· Castlevania: Lament of Innocence (2003)
· Castlevania: Lords of Shadow (2010)
· Dante's Inferno (2010)
· The Darkness II (2012)
· Dead Space (2008)
· Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs The Soulless Army (2006)
· Double Dragon Neon (2012)
· Gears of War 2 (2008)
· God of War: Ghost of Sparta (2010)
· The Godfather: The Game (2006)
· Grand Theft Auto III (2001)
· Hotline Miami (2012)
· Ico (2001)
· Infamous (2009)
· Inversion (2012)
· Kane & Lunch: Dead Men (2007)
· The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006)
· MediEvil 2 (2000)
· Ninja Gaiden 3 (2010)
· Pandora's Tower (2011)
· Prey (2006)
· Resident Evil 5 (2009)
· Shadows of the Damned (2011)
· Tenchu: Shadow Assassins (2009)

Spoilering the titles of the games serves absolutely no purpose. They're also in the OP.

 

[ElFly]

Not really

Ending credits are viewed as rewards for gamers. Having the scene be the ending to the game is actually more impactful than if it wasn't.

Nice try by Anita though.

Yes really.

What would have happened to the villain if the girl hadn't been there.

He would have died because of the fall. So the girl input was nil.

Nice try.

 

[Gutsy Frog]

"Occasionally they may be allowed to offer the hero a last minute helping hand, or to kick the bad guy while he's down, but these moments are largely symbolic and typically only happen after the core adventure is over, or the danger has passed."

But that does not apply to the final fight with Ganon AT ALL. You fought side-by-side with Tetra as your equal. The fight was SPECIFICALLY designed so that Ganon could ONLY be damaged through teamwork. If not for the team-up, Ganon would have won. That much was obvious.