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[Canadian Psycho]

Also maybe am wrong but Serenas race has to be one of the deciding factors in people choosing to not recognize her as a great athlete (and one of the best ever in her sport).

You are wrong. She's a poster child because of her success and the fact that it is reflected in her appearance moreso than others. Errani was linked to Fuentes (or was it Del Moral?), one of the top doping doctors in Europe. Now David Ferrer, does anyone think the guy is clean?! Freaks of nature are playing 4.5 hour matches at top level, retrieving balls like madmen as if it were the first game of the first set. It's all happening before our eyes yet nobody does anything except deify the cheats. Like someone else said, tennis doesn't have a reliable testing system in place. Much like every other sport, they don't want any of their stars getting caught because of the $ they bring in. Sad, sad, sad.

 

[Smellycat]

Steffi Graf

 

[Reno7728]

I'd like to see Serena compete with the men just to see how far she'd get.

Admittedly they were young at the time but there is this

And mens tennis has got far more physical since then thanks to a not-in-anyway-related-to-high-profile-recently-busted-spanish-doctor and a high profile Spanish player

 

[Ducarmel]

Well she is AN anomaly, just not the only one.

Explain the anomaly of Serena's physique.

That is what Mooseking was talking about, he is making his claim she uses because of her physique.

He selectively chooses photos of her flexing/exerting strength and claiming no women can look like, but if you see her in a relaxed state that ripped/hugeness/definition effect is missing in photos of her in the same game.

I can post photos of other tennis players or female athletes flexing but I would not conclude they are doping because they have muscle and are flexing. Serena obviously bulks up a little bit more then her competition but she is not this physically ripped specimen that can only be achieved in a lab.

Just to put it out there I do believe pro level sports is full of ped cheats, imo if you do not have mandatory random blood test in the off-season, during the season and scheduled testing before and after tournaments your sport/league is a joke in terms of curbing ped use.

 

[Moral Panic]

I wouldn't go that far. But there is a difference between a real american like lance and the rest of them.

Are you actually serious? I can't tell.

 

[inm8num2]

Tennis is really the only sport I care about at this point, still being more or less a gentleman's and ladies' game. But if we start finding out that top players have been cheating that would be a disappointment.

 

[Goro Majima]

Admittedly they were young at the time but there is this

And mens tennis has got far more physical since then thanks to a not-in-anyway-related-to-high-profile-recently-busted-spanish-doctor and a high profile Spanish player

Yikes.

That's pretty shocking.

 

[Canadian Psycho]

Tennis is really the only sport I care about at this point, still being more or less a gentleman's and ladies' game. But if we start finding out that top players have been cheating that would be a disappointment.

Why wouldn't they be? There's so much money at stake. It's not the 1920s anymore.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

I wouldn't go that far. But there is a difference between a real american like lance and the rest of them.

Lance is 5 Real Americans compared to everyone else's 1 Real American.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Lance is 5 Real Americans compared to everyone else's 1 Real American.

I'd say he has at least double the typical units of patriotism running through his veins.

 

[inm8num2]

Why wouldn't they be? There's so much money at stake. It's not the 1920s anymore.

I'd rather watch serve and volley tennis of the 1920s than power groundstroke overkill of modern day tennis.

 

[Canadian Psycho]

power groundstroke overkill of modern day tennis.

I can't stand it either. Yesterday's first semi-final match looked like a game of Virtua Tennis (much like the 2011 USO and 2012 AO finals, ugh). Commentators are unknowingly right when they talk about "superhuman" performances.

 

[Acorn]

Tennis is really the only sport I care about at this point, still being more or less a gentleman's and ladies' game. But if we start finding out that top players have been cheating that would be a disappointment.

Well the oversight by the tennis authorities is probably the weakest of any major worldwide sport. Draw your own conclusions from that.

 

[Bay Maximus]

I suspect the issue isn't how big she is but how black she is.
--------------

Top 3 female player, possibly the greatest.

 

[ndiicm]

And you are purposefully ignoring everything Serena went through, can you imagine were she would be today. Also maybe am wrong but Serenas race has to be one of the deciding factors in people choosing to not recognize her as a great athlete (and one of the best ever in her sport).

I suspect the issue isn't how big she is but how black she is.
--------------

Top 3 female player, possibly the greatest.

Look up Surya Bonaly. She could do a back flip in Ice skates but the Judges would deny her saying she needed to land Jumps on one foot. She did it again landing on one foot and she was denied a medal anyway lol.

Do a search there are lots of stills of her looking like ChungLi mid whirlwind-kick doing an insane move with blades attached to her feet on ice, in the 1994 Olympics that none of these "judges" had ever seen in their lives... but yet that was looked down on... I wonder why.

You know who could bend it better than Beckham? Roberto Carlos but you will never hear his name 'main stream'. The Beatles brought American music (mo-town) back to white America and people acted like they had never heard it before (Paul McCartney's own words). Same thing with Elvis (look up the origins of the words rock and roll as it relates to music). History shows whole groups of people are more than happy to keep living life deluding themselves.

Neogaf isn't like the yahoo or Youtube comments section (i.e. completely un-moderated) so the racists have to be a bit more subtle. It's actually kinda cute... but how do you really know who the crazies are.

 

[Clegg]

It's too early to say whether or not Serena is the most dominant.

She hasn't won as many Slams as Graf and her win percentage isn't quite as good.

 

[IISANDERII]

Serena would not stand a chance against any man ranked in the top 2000.
At my club, there are 2 players ranked inside the top 1000 and they would blow Serena off the court with ease.

One year at the Australian Open, the Williams sisters played an ATP player who was drinking and smoking. He didn't even break sweat. Google it.

 

[Vermillion]

Serena would not stand a chance against any man ranked in the top 2000.
At my club, there are 2 players ranked inside the top 1000 and they would blow Serena off the court with ease.

One year at the Australian Open, the Williams sisters played an ATP player who was drinking and smoking. He didn't even break sweat. Google it.

Who cares?

 

[inm8num2]

Well the oversight by the tennis authorities is probably the weakest of any major worldwide sport. Draw your own conclusions from that.

I conclude that the news will break one day. I didn't mean to suggest that tennis is pure, just that it has avoided this controversy longer than other sports.

We'll find out the only grand slam contender of the last 15 years who didn't dope was Tim Henman. LOL. Poor guy.

 

[WascallyWabbit]

I'd like to see Serena compete with the men just to see how far she'd get.

Not very far, I just looked up her Wimbledon win against Radwanska. Her first serve average speed is 107, which would get absolutely crushed by men

 

[Acorn]

I conclude that the news will break one day. I didn't mean to suggest that tennis is pure, just that it has avoided this controversy longer than other sports.

We'll find out the only grand slam champion of the last 15 years who didn't dope was Tim Henman. LOL. Poor guy.

Ah ok, Henman didn't even win a grand slam. I get what you mean though.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Look up Surya Bonaly. She could do a back flip in Ice skates but the Judges would deny her saying she needed to land Jumps on one foot. She did it again landing on one foot and she was denied a medal anyway lol.

Do a search there are lots of stills of her looking like ChungLi mid whirlwind-kick doing an insane move with blades attached to her feet on ice, in the 1994 Olympics that none of these "judges" had ever seen in their lives... but yet that was looked down on... I wonder why.

You know who could bend it better than Beckham? Roberto Carlos but you will never hear his name 'main stream'. The Beatles brought American music (mo-town) back to white America and people acted like they had never heard it before (Paul McCartney's own words). Same thing with Elvis (look up the origins of the words rock and roll as it relates to music). History shows whole groups of people are more than happy to keep living life deluding themselves.

Neogaf isn't like the yahoo or Youtube comments section (i.e. completely un-moderated) so the racists have to be a bit more subtle. It's actually kinda cute... but how do you really know who the crazies are.

This seems rather unfair. It's a fact that the ITF probably has the worst testing record of any major international sporting body. It's a fact that Serena Williams managed to go 3 years without a single OoC test. It's a fact the one time an OoC tester did come, she locked herself in her house until he went away. It's a fact that Fuentes was said to have had around 30 tennis players on his list. It's a fact that drugs are enough to transform you from a nobody to someone who can make a slam final, as Puerta demonstrated. It's a fact that on both the men's circuit and the women's circuit, matches have started lasting longer and longer, and players having become stronger and stronger.

The culmination of these facts means even if you can't say with certainty "x player is doping", you can say "there is a high likelihood at least some players are doping". Additionally, those who are doping are much more likely to be at the top of the game, so those at the top naturally get more suspicion. You can then add to that Serena has a chequered past in terms of her involvement with drugs officials. Even the staunchest fan should admit there is some not insignificant probability she may be doping, given the culmination of these factors. This doesn't just apply to Serena, either. I know Swizterland and Britain both have quite competent internal drugs testing bodies (it's one of the few things the LTA does well), but if you told me Djokovic or Nadal was doping? I wouldn't be that surprised. I really hope they aren't, for the integrity of the sport, but I really can't say I'd be that shocked.

To just say it's racism when it's long been rumoured tennis is a great big doping scandal waiting to burst just seems grossly unfair.

 

[inm8num2]

Ah ok, Henman didn't even win a grand slam. I get what you mean though.

Crap, I meant contender, but it still works. Henman never won, but if news of others' cheating broke he'd be the champ by default!

Sorry, bad jokes...

 

[DominoKid]

Look up Surya Bonaly. She could do a back flip in Ice skates but the Judges would deny her saying she needed to land Jumps on one foot. She did it again landing on one foot and she was denied a medal anyway lol.

Do a search there are lots of stills of her looking like ChungLi mid whirlwind-kick doing an insane move with blades attached to her feet on ice, in the 1994 Olympics that none of these "judges" had ever seen in their lives... but yet that was looked down on... I wonder why.

You know who could bend it better than Beckham? Roberto Carlos but you will never hear his name 'main stream'. The Beatles brought American music (mo-town) back to white America and people acted like they had never heard it before (Paul McCartney's own words). Same thing with Elvis (look up the origins of the words rock and roll as it relates to music). History shows whole groups of people are more than happy to keep living life deluding themselves.

Neogaf isn't like the yahoo or Youtube comments section (i.e. completely un-moderated) so the racists have to be a bit more subtle. It's actually kinda cute... but how do you really know who the crazies are.

false but nice try. should've went w/ Juninho.

 

[ndiicm]

false but nice try. should've went w/ Juninho.

I chuckled. He's pretty good too.

back on topic...

 

[Currygan]

looks like you should have seen some Steffi Graf. I assure you she was a goddamned unstoppable machine


Serena is a great athlete indeed, and sits among the best. The best? Nah

 

[curlyfriski]

looks like you should have seen some Steffi Graf. I assure you she was a goddamned unstoppable machine


Serena is a great athlete indeed, and sits among the best. The best? Nah

Slice backhand wouldn't cut it in the modern game.

 

[Currygan]

Slice backhand wouldn't cut it in the modern game.

you say it like it was her only weapon

 

[jimmypop]

Yes, Williams (ab)uses PEDs, like most other top tennis pros.

 

[ndiicm]

31yrs old, oldest woman to win a major title since 1990. Just another day at the office.

 

[curlyfriski]

you say it like it was her only weapon

You misunderstand me. She had great weapons, but she almost never hit anything but a slice backhand. The modern game is all about pace and topspin, and the slice doesn't give you either. An athletic player can abuse a weaker shot like that, which is what Seles did to much success against Graf. The strength of her forehand doesn't matter much if her opponent is always going to her backhand.

 

[Vox-Pop]

Maria Sharapova will always be my #1.

 

[Currygan]

You misunderstand me. She had great weapons, but she almost never hit anything but a slice backhand. The modern game is all about pace and topspin, and the slice doesn't give you either. An athletic player can abuse a weaker shot like that, which is what Seles did to much success against Graf. The strength of her forehand doesn't matter much if her opponent is always going to her backhand.

oh yeah, that's absolutely correct, although I still think she would make short work of the majority of today's hitters. Speed, footwork, court coverage, general athleticism were and would be tops. But it's a moot point, we all know it would be impossible to predict; would Pele be still one of the top footballers of all times if he played today?

it's a shame she didn't go further into developing the topospin backhand during the later eighties, maybe for a lack of confidence, and that's when Seles stepped in

 

[IISANDERII]

Who cares?

People who are capable of reading[this thread]?

 

[Vermillion]

People who are capable of reading[this thread]?

Thread title is something completely different, mang.

 

[Steelrain]

If you don't agree that Serena is the greatest of all time, you're probably a racist. That's just how it works out.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Look up Surya Bonaly. She could do a back flip in Ice skates but the Judges would deny her saying she needed to land Jumps on one foot. She did it again landing on one foot and she was denied a medal anyway lol.

Do a search there are lots of stills of her looking like ChungLi mid whirlwind-kick doing an insane move with blades attached to her feet on ice, in the 1994 Olympics that none of these "judges" had ever seen in their lives... but yet that was looked down on... I wonder why.

You know who could bend it better than Beckham? Roberto Carlos but you will never hear his name 'main stream'. The Beatles brought American music (mo-town) back to white America and people acted like they had never heard it before (Paul McCartney's own words). Same thing with Elvis (look up the origins of the words rock and roll as it relates to music). History shows whole groups of people are more than happy to keep living life deluding themselves.

Neogaf isn't like the yahoo or Youtube comments section (i.e. completely un-moderated) so the racists have to be a bit more subtle. It's actually kinda cute... but how do you really know who the crazies are.

holy shit, that is the sickest move i have seen.

 

[Tookay]

I suspect the issue isn't how big she is but how black she is.

Also maybe am wrong but Serenas race has to be one of the deciding factors in people choosing to not recognize her as a great athlete (and one of the best ever in her sport).

Come on.

You do realize that you're on GAF, progressive capital of the internet, right?

 

[curlyfriski]

oh yeah, that's absolutely correct, although I still think she would make short work of the majority of today's hitters. Speed, footwork, court coverage, general athleticism were and would be tops. But it's a moot point, we all know it would be impossible to predict; would Pele be still one of the top footballers of all times if he played today?

it's a shame she didn't go further into developing the topospin backhand during the later eighties, maybe for a lack of confidence, and that's when Seles stepped in

Right, the equipment and the style of play is so different today that comparing across eras is really difficult, although Graf is recent enough that it's possible. She'd definitely have to change her style of play somewhat to match the modern game, but at least she has the build for it. Someone like Chris Evert would probably be screwed.

 

[Dereck]

Dat booty.

 

[freenudemacusers]

If you don't agree that Serena is the greatest of all time, you're probably a racist. That's just how it works out.

you sound like martina hingis

 

[ndiicm]

holy shit, that is the sickest move i have seen.

lol, I know right. ^_^

 

[Steelrain]

you sound like martina hingis

I did just do a shitload of cocaine.

 

[Acorn]

And you are purposefully ignoring everything Serena went through, can you imagine were she would be today. Also maybe am wrong but Serenas race has to be one of the deciding factors in people choosing to not recognize her as a great athlete (and one of the best ever in her sport).

Don't like Serena= Racist. Good to know.

 

[yyzjohn]

If you don't agree that Serena is the greatest of all time, you're probably a racist. That's just how it works out.

LOL so true. People whip out the race card as soon as you dare disagree with their argument. Forget looking at actual win/loss record when comparing her to other women. If you don't agree she's #1 you are racist!!!

 

[Enzom21]

Come on.

You do realize that you're on GAF, progressive capital of the internet, right?

GAF is far from being progressive when it comes to race.

 

[Canadian Psycho]

Who gives a shit about race, this is about opportunistic athletes.

 

[IISANDERII]

Thread title is something completely different, mang.

Who cares?

 

[Vox-Pop]

I don't think it's racism, but Maria does make more money than Serena in endorsements. She just signed a deal with Porsche. She's far more commercial to the higher/upper middle class that watches tennis.

 

[Vermillion]

Who cares?

Huh, I guess no one. See you around.