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[A Link to the Past]

Actually, DK is somewhat of a melee version of said moves. You already spotted the Up B, but there's also the B to charge, the down B which has an AoE effect (like explosions do), and I guess you could argue the headbutt changes the trajectory of your opponents, so there you go.

Dude, don't be such an elitist.

 

[SkyOdin]

YOu mean is specials. Not those claw attacks, and the moves where he throws his entire body... because fox cant do that. At all.... so his specials... all of his normals are different.

No, I mean his design paradigm. Like Falco, Wolf was designed by taking Fox, then modifying it until you get something that looks a bit different. At his core, he is still a mobile fighter who uses nothing but bare-hand A attacks and the same basic framework of B moves. He still has a generally similar weight, speed, and size. Not the same, but in the same close range.

In comparison, look at the versatility of what kinds of characters they have. On the extreme end, we have characters like Snake and Megaman, who have projectiles in their A attacks. Marth and Ike manage to be fairly different, being in totally different weight classes. Just looking at Fox and Captain Falcon can show the pretty big difference in handling between two bare-handed fighters.

You also can't understate the importance of B specials and final smashes. They do a lot to define characters. They make them unique and give them personality. And personality is one of the key elements that makes characters not feel like clones. For example, a characters up-B escape move is rather key to SSB gameplay, since it is an essential part of recovering from a bad hit. Ike feels different from Marth because he has a different escape move; Ike's is a lot riskier to use, and unlike Marth he can use his forward-B to get back to the field. On the other hand Lucas feels just like Ness since they both share the same floaty double jump and the same PK-thunder recovery. If two characters have the exact same response to a bad situation, it makes them feel more like clones.

So you can't really understate the significance of B moves. They tend to be more important for defining a character's play and personality than A moves. Stuff like speed, weight, and size are also disproportionally more important than A moves.

The accusation of being a clone character comes down to characters being too similar, not that they are actually identical. It might just be a matter or perception, but one can't deny that perception plays a big part in hoe much people enjoy a game.

 

[BY2K]

Pit, Snake and Sonic were planned for Melee, but it was too late to add them.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No, I mean his design paradigm. Like Falco, Wolf was designed by taking Fox, then modifying it until you get something that looks a bit different. At his core, he is still a mobile fighter who uses nothing but bare-hand A attacks and the same basic framework of B moves. He still has a generally similar weight, speed, and size. Not the same, but in the same close range.

In comparison, look at the versatility of what kinds of characters they have. On the extreme end, we have characters like Snake and Megaman, who have projectiles in their A attacks. Marth and Ike manage to be fairly different, being in totally different weight classes. Just looking at Fox and Captain Falcon can show the pretty big difference in handling between two bare-handed fighters.

You also can't understate the importance of B specials and final smashes. They do a lot to define characters. They make them unique and give them personality. And personality is one of the key elements that makes characters not feel like clones. For example, a characters up-B escape move is rather key to SSB gameplay, since it is an essential part of recovering from a bad hit. Ike feels different from Marth because he has a different escape move; Ike's is a lot riskier to use, and unlike Marth he can use his forward-B to get back to the field. On the other hand Lucas feels just like Ness since they both share the same floaty double jump and the same PK-thunder recovery. If two characters have the exact same response to a bad situation, it makes them feel more like clones.

So you can't really understate the significance of B moves. They tend to be more important for defining a character's play and personality than A moves. Stuff like speed, weight, and size are also disproportionally more important than A moves.

The accusation of being a clone character comes down to characters being too similar, not that they are actually identical. It might just be a matter or perception, but one can't deny that perception plays a big part in hoe much people enjoy a game.

Wolf's specials are harsher than Fox or Falco's. The red, constant shield; the wider, slower projectile; the Up B being more sudden and giving Wolf more visibility; the Side B being slower and seemingly more physical; etc.

If he didn't have the Landmaster, no one would notice.

 

[Green Mamba]

Pit, Snake and Sonic were planned for Melee, but it was too late to add them.

I don't know if you could consider Kojima asking Sakurai if Snake could be in Melee and then Sakurai saying no as "planned."

And I would like to see a source on Pit.

 

[Troubled Bat]

If we had Banjo & Kazooie...

 

[Roo]

Preferably with these weapons

I don't undestant why people always picture Daisy like a butch

 

[Kouichi]

Pit, Snake and Sonic were planned for Melee, but it was too late to add them.

Really? I've never heard about Sonic being planned and I know Snake was requested, but the game was too far into development.

 

[Jintor]

I don't undestant why people always picture Daisy like a [REDACTED]

Hmmm... careful there.

 

[Red Arremer]

In comparison, look at the versatility of what kinds of characters they have. On the extreme end, we have characters like Snake and Megaman, who have projectiles in their A attacks. Marth and Ike manage to be fairly different, being in totally different weight classes. Just looking at Fox and Captain Falcon can show the pretty big difference in handling between two bare-handed fighters.

But Wolf and Fox both have entirely different moves. Not a single A move of Wolf is the same as Fox's.

And good point bringing up Ike, because he would also fall into the clone line here. Think about it:
B: Chargeable stab move
Up + B: Vertical recovery
Side + B: Horizontal movement with the sword
Down + B: Counter
Final Smash: Superstrong sword slash with lots of knockback.

Boom. Ike is a clone of Marth. You can't just call a character a clone due to their B moves being similar. That's the entire point here.

 

[Ezalc]

Ezalc dude, you are getting so riled up over this. You're also very obviously showing that you don't understand what a clone is. A clone would literally be two characters that do the exact same thing (exact same animations) to the exact same mechanical effect (similar hit stun, similar launching/spiking ability, similar start up and recovery, etc.). All this stuff you're relegating to "Smash elitists" are things that are obvious to ANYONE playing the game at any level and your continued persistence in the idea that this stuff is for elitists only is revealing a willful blindness to the idea that maybe your argument is just flat out weak.

I can also guarantee that the "casuals" you speak about would most definitely notice something's up when suddenly Fox is using a Falco alt over being in when he's been around since Melee. You want to talk about clones then advocate a system where tons of them would be running around because of popularity of certain characters driving people to only pick them or their alt and nothing more...

See, it's not that I don't know what a clone is. It's that you and Beef and some others, have a different definition of it than I do. To you, a clone is what you said. To me a clone is somebody like falco and wolf comparing to fox. All three have the reflecting shield, all three have the side dash, all three take out a pistol and shoot a laser as their standard special, and all three have the up dash. The differing properties of each of these things, whether Falco kicks his reflector or not, whether Wolf goes slightly diagonal on a side dash or not, whether or not his pistol shot has stun or not. Those things, those move properties to me and to many others don't matter. Now when I say many others I just mean that, if some guy went to play smash and instead of having Falco have his own spot on the roster, he'd just be an alt costume of fox. He'd still have the blaster, the shield, the two dashes, it's just that he'd be "choosing" Fox. The thing that irritates me is that I don't want characters like Falco or Wolf that have these minimal differences. You want them in the game? Fine, just give them completely different moves. COMPLETELY different. No shield, no pistol, no dashes. Do something else, do something different. If you can't do that, then make him an alt costume. "Clones" are boring, they offer nothing new to somebody who won't be looking to get into competitive smash.

Oh, I get what you're saying - you want Smash to be your game, no one else's, because you would rather people have fewer options to appease your preferences.

When does it stop being okay to be a "lazy developer"? Clearly, for you, stylistic rips are perfectly fine.

Also, good to know that elitism is not "I want only what I want! Clones suck! I don't care if people like them, I would rather there be nothing than there be clones!", but rather "I like clones. I like playing as them. They're different. Just don't use them." You're basically being the mouthbreathing conservative of the Smash community - interpreting anyone who takes Smash as a serious fighting game, or looks into the finer details as "elitists".

I'm seriously confused by the harm. As a matter of fact - yes, fact - no one is harmed or even inconvenienced by clones. Not even you. Their existence does not prevent other characters from existing, it just makes for a larger roster. It's apparent that you are a very selfish gamer, and, in fact, are the elitist in this discussion. You act superior because you don't take Smash seriously, and you act like you're better because you play Smash casually. When I act superior to you, it's because you're upset that the game has more options, rather than fewer. That's not elitism, that's a natural reaction to your ego.

Jesus, your ability to twist my words is amazing. Never once have I stated that I was superior, this is you putting words in my mouth, yet again.

Never once did I claim I was better because I don't play smash competitively. Elitism is a person like yourself and like Beef. Oh we play on a higher level than you, sure must suck to be stuck down there with all the other idiots huh? Guess you can just wallow in your ignorance. You don't understand the fine details of a rushdown, mix-up, of counting how many seconds of super armor or invincibility you get from doing this one move. You're telling me you don't see the arrogance in your own goddamn statement? Are you serious?

To an ordinary person none of that matters. They don't want to become some smash champion. Their choice will come down to whether or not they like the character aesthetically or from their personality or by how they are portrayed in the games of their own franchises.

Let me put it another way. Let's take a game where there is a stick figure, the simplest rendition of a character. No then, this fighting game has 20 characters in it's roster. They are all stick figures, the same stick figure to be exact. Their names are just numbers so 1 through 20. These last two things are just to ensure that no aesthetic preferences come into play. Now all of these stick figures have the same moves. All of them a kick, a punch, an uppercut, and a sweep. The only difference is that, with stick figure number 5 the uppercut hits multiple times so you get that bit of damage more but otherwise it's the same exact animation and everything. With stick figure number 13 the kick goes at an 100 degree angle instead of a 90 degree angle. All stick figures have this. Minor differences in the properties of their moves, but they all have the exact same moves.

Are these stick figures clones? Not according to the FGC. Why not? Because of their different move properties.

Now give this same fighter to a casual fighting game player. Do you honestly think they'll care whether or not the walking speed of stick figure 18 is slower than that of stick figure 3? No they won't. They'll quickly get bored with it because, taking out the whole of the aesthetic part of it. They all do, the exact same thing but with slight tweaks. And these exact tweaks are what I and many others don't care about in regards to the "clones" in smash. So make new characters, keep Falco and Wolf and whoever else. Just make them do different things, not simply have their moves have different properties.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I don't know if you could consider Kojima asking Sakurai if Snake could be in Melee and then Sakurai saying no as "planned."

And I would like to see a source on Pit.

Same here but I heard same thing from forums. Anyway, I'm sure that people might look at me as paranoid poster.

I would like to play it safe and assumed that some of characters that I would like to see wouldn't make into SSB4, such as Palutena, Hades, Medusa, Takamaru, Little Mac, Isaac and many more, so I'm going to make it easier for me and play it safe.

 

[Troubled Bat]

I don't undestant why people always picture Daisy like a [?]

Daisy is a Tomboy.

 

[SkyOdin]

Wolf's specials are harsher than Fox or Falco's. The red, constant shield; the wider, slower projectile; the Up B being more sudden and giving Wolf more visibility; the Side B being slower and seemingly more physical; etc.

If he didn't have the Landmaster, no one would notice.

The fact that you can you describe him as a harsher Fox who has a "harsher" equivalent to all of Fox's moves doesn't really disapprove my point.

There is room for overlap between characters. Bowser and DK have similar up-B moves, after all. But in that case, the overlap is fine because everything else is different between the two characters (other than weight and size, I guess).

The problem comes when the overlap is so comprehensive that the comparison you made above actually works.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Really? I've never heard about Sonic being planned and I know Snake was requested, but the game was too far into development.

Yuji Naka claimed that he pushed to get Sonic into Melee but Nintendo refused (which is interesting, since Sega still had their own console at the time), so that's the same situation as Snake. I don't believe Pit was planned for Melee, though.

 

[ffdgh]

Preferably with these weapons

Now how did I miss this beauty. Dat peach...

 

[Chet Rippo]

I don't undestant why people always picture Daisy like a butch

Because Nintendo likes to call her the tomboy princess in a way to make her different than Peach. That's why in like MG:TT and MPT had Daisy wear shorts instead of the skirt Peach wore.

 

[Jintor]

She does rock a soccer outfit pretty well

 

[Zonic]

Yuji Naka claimed that he pushed to get Sonic into Melee but Nintendo refused (which is interesting, since Sega still had their own console at the time), so that's the same situation as Snake. I don't believe Pit was planned for Melee, though.

I've never heard of Pit for Melee either. However, in my History of Sonic The Hedgehog book, this is what it says about Sonic:

"Early on, Nintendo asked Sega if Sonic could be included in the game, but the Haneda company refused. It was only later, when the development of Super Smash Bros. Brawl was nearly finished, that Sega changed its mind. This is why the game's release was delayed."

It would also explain Sonic's last-minute inclusion in Subspace.

 

[onionfrog]

Guys can we stop arguing about clones?
What's the next part of the smashgaf cycle anyways? Lets do that instead.

 

[Forever]

To an ordinary person none of that matters.

What is an ordinary person? I'm not a competitive player, I don't pretend to understand the mechanics like a pro, but I like it better when the game is geared for competitive play because it makes things more interesting to me. I like games that are based on skill, even if my own skills aren't very impressive. That's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Kouichi]

If we had Banjo & Kazooie...

It hurts to think that Banjo would have been a shoe-in by now if Rare was still owned by Nintendo

Yuji Naka claimed that he pushed to get Sonic into Melee but Nintendo refused (which is interesting, since Sega still had their own console at the time), so that's the same situation as Snake. I don't believe Pit was planned for Melee, though.

Ah I see. Didn't know that. I thought Sonic made it into Brawl because he was heavily requested so Nintendo struck a deal. Well, I'm sure that was still part of the reason.

Yeah, I think Pit was just another fake rumor started by his trophy.

 

[DaBoss]

Guys can we stop arguing about clones?
What's the next part of the smashgaf cycle anyways? Lets do that instead.

We can cross out Ridley is too big and clones. What is the complete SmashGAF cycle? I wasn't a lurker or member here during Brawl's pre-release.

 

[Camjo-Z]

This post here is sarcastic, but if you don't have a proper rebuttal other than that, I assume you know that you lost this argument because you accepted either Samus as a Link clone, or Wolf as a full fledged character.

No, but I figured a post silly enough to oversimplify the mechanics of B moves to the point where every character can be considered a clone deserved an equally silly response. But since you asked, I would have said something like this:

Fox, Falco and Wolf all share 4 B-moves with the exact same concepts (laser pistol, a fast dash, a slower dash, and a reflector), and no other characters do. You can try to argue things like "but Pikachu's Up+B is like Fox's then! Or Ike's Side+B!" but the fact is that if Wolf wasn't a clone then they would have put more effort into differentiating his moves like they did with every other character that isn't a clone.

also sorry onionfrog! uh...

ridley is too big!!

 

[IntelliHeath]

Guys can we stop arguing about clones?
What's the next part of the smashgaf cycle anyways? Lets do that instead.

Next step in cycle is Ridley.

 

[Green Mamba]

"Clones" are boring, they offer nothing new to somebody who won't be looking to get into competitive smash.

This is absurd. I've never even contemplated about getting into competitive Smash, but Dr. Mario was by far my favorite character in Melee, and I hated playing as Mario.

You have a serious problem with projection. You don't speak for all non-tourney players and thank fucking god you don't.

 

[Clefargle]

I know a new meme for Wii Fit Trainer that I don't think anyone used yet...Should I post it?

Yes, yes you should

 

[JazzmanZ]

They should just give Ganon, Ike's moveset, everybody wants Ganon to use his sword, and Ike is most likely not going to be in SSB4, it's a win win.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Yes, yes you should

if it's safe picture.

 

[Chet Rippo]

She does rock a soccer outfit pretty well

Well nowadays Peach usually wears the same outfits as Daisy. Probably in an effort to avoid upskirt moments. Something you don't really have to worry much with golf.

 

[L00P]

They should just give Ganon, Ike's moveset, everybody wants Ganon to use his sword, and Ike is most likely not going to be in SSB4, it's a win win.

But then he would just be another clone

 

[DaBoss]

also sorry onionfrog! uh...

ridley is too big!!

Next step in cycle is Ridley.

Again? Can't we just relive it by re-reading it? Start here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63636701#post63636701

 

[Ezalc]

Basically SkyOdin is presenting my argument much more eloquently than I am.

This is absurd. I've never even contemplated about getting into competitive Smash, but Dr. Mario was by far my favorite character in Melee, and I hated playing as Mario.

You have a serious problem with projection. You don't speak for all non-tourney players and thank fucking god you don't.

Explain to me why you liked Dr. Mario better.

 

[SkyOdin]

They should just give Ganon, Ike's moveset, everybody wants Ganon to use his sword, and Ike is most likely not going to be in SSB4, it's a win win.

But Ike has the exact same problem Ganon does! Neither one has the ranged attack they both deserve!

 

[Red Arremer]

No, but I figured a post silly enough to oversimplify the mechanics of B moves to the point where every character can be considered a clone deserved an equally silly response. But since you asked, I would have said something like this:

Fox, Falco and Wolf all share B moves with the exact same concepts (laser pistol, a fast dash, a slower dash, and a reflector), and no other characters do. You can try to argue things like "but Pikachu's Up+B is like Fox's then! Or Ike's Side+B!" but the fact is that if Wolf wasn't a clone then they would have put more effort into differentiating his moves like they did with every other character that isn't a clone.

But I'm not listing a single move for Link/Samus, I'm listing ALL of their B moves. Every single B move for Link and Samus is, in regards to their concept, the same.

What exactly makes Wolf's B moves more "cloney" than Link's and Samus' are? What exactly differentiates Samus' B moves from Link's enough to call their B moves not a copy of each other? Is it just the visuals? Because Samus shoots a rocket and Link a boomerang, etc.?

Since you completely disregard Wolf's entire A moveset, you have to narrow EVERY character down on ONLY their B moves. And going just by that, Samus is literally a clone of Link.

 

[Ryce]

I'm guilty of partaking in it, but my god, Smash Bros. speculation is so vapid and fruitless. Nobody cares who anyone else wants on the roster. It feels like we've been having the same discussions for five years.

 

[Troubled Bat]

It hurts to think that Banjo would have been a shoe-in by now if Rare was still owned by Nintendo

Isn't it!? D: By now we could have been smacking people around with Kazooie! You know how great that would have been.. WHY NINTENDO, WHY!

 

[Ezalc]

Because I'm tired of all of this bullshit I'm just going to link to funny pictures.

 

[A Link to the Past]

See, it's not that I don't know what a clone is. It's that you and Beef and some others, have a different definition of it than I do. To you, a clone is what you said. To me a clone is somebody like falco and wolf comparing to fox. All three have the reflecting shield, all three have the side dash, all three take out a pistol and shoot a laser as their standard special, and all three have the up dash. The differing properties of each of these things, whether Falco kicks his reflector or not, whether Wolf goes slightly diagonal on a side dash or not, whether or not his pistol shot has stun or not. Those things, those move properties to me and to many others don't matter. Now when I say many others I just mean that, if some guy went to play smash and instead of having Falco have his own spot on the roster, he'd just be an alt costume of fox. He'd still have the blaster, the shield, the two dashes, it's just that he'd be "choosing" Fox. The thing that irritates me is that I don't want characters like Falco or Wolf that have these minimal differences. You want them in the game? Fine, just give them completely different moves. COMPLETELY different. No shield, no pistol, no dashes. Do something else, do something different. If you can't do that, then make him an alt costume. "Clones" are boring, they offer nothing new to somebody who won't be looking to get into competitive smash.



Jesus, your ability to twist my words is amazing. Never once have I stated that I was superior, this is you putting words in my mouth, yet again.

Never once did I claim I was better because I don't play smash competitively. Elitism is a person like yourself and like Beef. Oh we play on a higher level than you, sure must suck to be stuck down there with all the other idiots huh? Guess you can just wallow in your ignorance. You don't understand the fine details of a rushdown, mix-up, of counting how many seconds of super armor or invincibility you get from doing this one move. You're telling me you don't see the arrogance in your own goddamn statement? Are you serious?

To an ordinary person none of that matters. They don't want to become some smash champion. Their choice will come down to whether or not they like the character aesthetically or from their personality or by how they are portrayed in the games of their own franchises.

Let me put it another way. Let's take a game where there is a stick figure, the simplest rendition of a character. No then, this fighting game has 20 characters in it's roster. They are all stick figures, the same stick figure to be exact. Their names are just numbers so 1 through 20. These last two things are just to ensure that no aesthetic preferences come into play. Now all of these stick figures have the same moves. All of them a kick, a punch, an uppercut, and a sweep. The only difference is that, with stick figure number 5 the uppercut hits multiple times so you get that bit of damage more but otherwise it's the same exact animation and everything. With stick figure number 13 the kick goes at an 100 degree angle instead of a 90 degree angle. All stick figures have this. Minor differences in the properties of their moves, but they all have the exact same moves.

Are these stick figures clones? Not according to the FGC. Why not? Because of their different move properties.

Now give this same fighter to a casual fighting game player. Do you honestly think they'll care whether or not the walking speed of stick figure 18 is slower than that of stick figure 3? No they won't. They'll quickly get bored with it because, taking out the whole of the aesthetic part of it. They all do, the exact same thing but with slight tweaks. And these exact tweaks are what I and many others don't care about in regards to the "clones" in smash. So make new characters, keep Falco and Wolf and whoever else. Just make them do different things, not simply have their moves have different properties.

Why would he want less!? Why would someone look at Falco and say "I wish this game had less content"!? Christ, I can't understand the mentality that losing content that doesn't affect other content is a GOOD thing. There are MANY people who like Falco, Ganondorf, Young Link, etc., and even better than their originals. Fact is, you are asking that either A. they delay the game to make the clones less "cloney", or B. they make fewer characters. Clones exist because they wanted to add characters at the last minute.

And you know what? Smash isn't only for you casual Smashers. You constantly reinforce yourself as an elitist because, yes, elitist casual Smashers exist, and are quite obnoxious, too. Your post basically states that losing clones is okay because casuals like yourself wouldn't care. I want you to wrap your head around the idea that appealing to more people is better than appealing to fewer; Fact is, the number of people who casually play Smash and care that these characters exist - and in fact that having fewer characters is a better option - is ridiculously low. The people generally either "don't care", want new movesets instead of clones, or enjoy them. Your straw casual player simply doesn't exist.

I also like how your stick figure scenario suggests that clones are a plague to Smash, as if less than 25% of the roster of Melee being clone-based affects anything, or that less than 10% of Brawl's roster was clone-based. If EVERY character in the game was a clone, then yes, that'd be a problem in your fictional scenario.

Adding clones doesn't diminish the fun for (sane, rationale) casual Smashers. Adding clones creates more options for core Smashers. Your proposal is that Sakurai make a decision that helps nobody except for you and hurts the people who enjoy options.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Again? Can't we just relive it by re-reading it? Start here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63636701#post63636701

Oh right, then what's next step. I would guess metaknight = top tier or Melee > Brawl

 

[Village]

Next step in cycle is Ridley.

He Big.

 

[Hieberrr]

Am I the only one that doesn't care about regular smash bros and just loves playing Special Brawl 300% damage? Shit is mad fun with 2-3 people and really puts an emphasis on speed, dodging, countering, and precision.

 

[Azure J]

She does rock a soccer outfit pretty well

Daisy as basically the Mario Sports/Party/Kart rep playing off the angle of her being more hands on and athletic than Peach while wearing something in the vein of her Strikers gear is something I've wanted to see forever. Make Peach and Daisy the Mario and Luigi of the princesses. Rosalina as a witch/magical third would round out the Mario cast in the best way.

 

[Green Mamba]

Explain to me why you liked Dr. Mario better.

Because I liked his Forward Smash for not requiring a sweetspot. I liked his forward aerial for being the ridiculous killing machine that it was. I liked his jumping height in relation to how his aerials functioned. I liked his Megavitamins, how they bounced and how much damage they did.

I liked his moves and physics better than I liked Mario's. Is that not a valid opinion to have? Or is that too elitist?

Is there no middle ground between lowest common denominator press the special move buttons a few times before writing a whole character off and super hardcore no-items/fox-only/final-destination tourney chasers?

 

[RM8]

I also liked Dr. Mario much better. It's hardly just a re-skin, it's a much better character than regular Mario in Melee.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Basically SkyOdin is presenting my argument much more eloquently than I am.



Explain to me why you liked Dr. Mario better.

Why the fuck does he have to? If he said "he's more fun", then that's a God damned eloquent answer that verifies Dr. Mario's worth.

I like Dr. Mario because his attacks have more weight to him, and in general, I like his properties better than Mario.

But hey, that must make me an asshole, because I'm discussing things that casuals don't care about.

Effectively, it's a matter of theming exclusively versus gameplay. Changing Wolf's moves wouldn't make him different in gameplay, because as close to Fox as he is, at the end of the day, you're still playing Wolf in a different way because there is a specific way to play him well that doesn't apply to Fox at all.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I'm guilty of partaking in it, but my god, Smash Bros. speculation is so vapid and fruitless. Nobody cares who anyone else wants on the roster. It feels like we've been having the same discussions for five years.

Pretty much. That's why I went in different direction and it called Paranoida. That's why I'm worried about roster for SSB4. I'm sure that we will have a great roster but I'm worried that I mightn't able to get few characters that I would love to see.

Villager and Mega Man are two of the characters that I have been wishing to see, but would I have a chance to see more characters that I want to be in SSB4. I would put them as low chance to be in the game. Once I see them in the game then I will be very exciting.

 

[NeonZ]

"Clones" are boring, they offer nothing new to somebody who won't be looking to get into competitive smash.

You never saw some casual player loving Roy and not caring about Marth? You never saw someone that liked Ganondorf but disliked Captain Falcon's speed?

Now give this same fighter to a casual fighting game player. Do you honestly think they'll care whether or not the walking speed of stick figure 18 is slower than that of stick figure 3? No they won't. They'll quickly get bored with it because, taking out the whole of the aesthetic part of it. They all do, the exact same thing but with slight tweaks. And these exact tweaks are what I and many others don't care about in regards to the "clones" in smash. So make new characters, keep Falco and Wolf and whoever else. Just make them do different things, not simply have their moves have different properties.

Your example is completely inappropriate though. You say that people won't care about these slight changes, but, if their alternative is the same game with only one fighter, they'll certainly take the one with 20 figures with adjusted stats. The game you're talking about wouldn't be successful either way, but I don't see how having only one character would help.

This is the issue here - In your example, you seem to be replacing unique characters with clones, when that isn't what happens in reality.

Besides, alternate costumes can't really replace every stance of clones. Ganondorf as a C.Falcon costume would be even weirder. Someone like Toon/Young Link could never be a costume for Link due to different sizes requiring different proprieties. Even in the recent Mortal Kombat, when they made human forms for Cyrax and Sektor, they basically had to make them as different characters internally, changing some of the proprieties and animations of their special attacks, even if they share the same slot in the character selection screen and are selected as costumes, because there's only so much a voice/model change can achieve by itself.

 

[EatChildren]

yo they should add naruto goku digimon and shadow the hedgehog

 

[Red Arremer]

yo they should add naruto goku digimon and shadow the hedgehog

This man. This man right here. He won.