Ragingnight
Member
playing a char deemed as the scrubbiest character in the game isn't as hard as learning how to fight the character.
Floe and a few other SF players according to Brady had issues as well.
also from viscant twitter
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- Thread starter enzo_gt
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playing a char deemed as the scrubbiest character in the game isn't as hard as learning how to fight the character.
Floe and a few other SF players according to Brady had issues as well.
also from viscant twitter
In SFIV, you can see the other character jumping in and you are able to see (or should be at least, thanks Capcom) what side you should block.
Scorpion's teleport punch is 2 frames at max! You can't see! You have to guess throght the entire game, that's not cross up, that's HELL
Enordash
Member
So I guess the general sentiment here is that the NRS community is just not used to blocking cross-ups and the problem will go away eventually? In the podcast, Pig, REO, and Brady pretty much said that all they want is for MB Tele to not be safe on block. Or more accurately, the MB part would only come out on hit. If that gets patched, people will probably settle down a bit. The fact that he breaks interactables is another thing entirely, though.
I understand that people dealt with Vanilla Phoenix and the like in the past. I'm honestly pretty torn about this situation myself. I've always been pretty staunch with the "stop complaining and figure out how to beat it" stance, but if something breaks the basic rules of the game, there might be room for adjustment.
Edit: I missed where Karsticles pretty much pointed this all out.
after playing p4 arena i´m in the mood for an airdash / anime fighter.
is there anything available on pc with an alive mp?
i reinstalled BBCT .. but guess what - its more than dead
Maybe Melty Blood is up your alley? I'm sure you could find some matches on #mizuumi and I think there are a few players here as well.
All I'm seeing is a lot of not blocking and lack of patience on RunawayMafia's part. And failing to block crossups. And failing to capitalize on mistakes.
So basically he's lacking fundamentals that pretty much is required for almost every other fighting game. It's crazy to think this video as some sort of proof that Scorpion's broken when all I see is a guy who just sucks at basic level mechanics.
http://www.twitch.tv/kombatnetwork/b/420521717
6:25:09 for Reo vs. Tom Brady. More recent but it's not much different from the other video.
6:25:09 for Reo vs. Tom Brady. More recent but it's not much different from the other video.
Ragingnight
Member
I think runawaymafia is actually a good player or something in mK9. Unless you are talking about crossup in general.
but how do you explain Floe's statement. He wants him ban as well.
Karsticles
Member
Exactly.
Maybe Scorpion is broken, but this video definitely does not demonstrate that point.
Who cares what Floe wants?
I'm sure Runawaymafia is a good MK9 player, but the specific problem here seems to be blocking cross-ups, which MK players are not used to. From what I've seen of Injustice, few characters demand that you learn to block cross-ups consistently. Just because a character demands a player learn new skills does not mean that character is overpowered.
I can't speak for Floe. Hell I didn't even know he played Injustice. That said, I want to see some actual tournament results. If CEO is stacked with Scorpions in top 8 and just dominates, then fine. Otherwise let it rock.
It took Damdai a couple of major wins to get HDr Akuma banned. For some odd reason people are just willing to spot ban characters based on theories, not actual results.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Why don't you just hold forward at fullscreen if people that play Injustice can't react to the screen exploding and the camera launching towards them?
Ragingnight
Member
http://testyourmight.com/threads/kh-cats-scorpion-mix-up-guide.34750/
Does this help?
Theres an hour long podcast that goes in depth about it.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/th...ig-of-the-hut-reo-tom-brady-and-m2dave.34709/
I honestly thing its way too soon for a DLC to be in for EVO and judging by what people are saying I think its the right decision.
Can you identify when Scorpion is going to teleport? That's the problem. He can whiff punish you from ANYWHERE on the screen, because he teleport-punches behind you.
And that gets worst when you are trying to use interactables. Those have startup, you can react to it. All the other characters have to dash back or jump over them, ONLY Scorpion punish you with a full combo, because if he see you starting to pick up a object, he can just teleport BEHIND you, avoiding completly the interactable and hitting you with a combo
Yet AE was allowed less than a month before EVO.
So Scorpion makes you play honest and requires you to make good reads? If he teleports he has to commit so you can punish him if he makes a bad read?
Not seeing how this is a bad thing.
Sentinel Patch IIRC came out exactly a month after MvC3 came out. MS Cert can take UP TO a month, but even if that's a few weeks that's not enough time to even gather reactions and implement them, do internal testing, etc.
My money is on that being a pre-release decision. They probably always meant to give Sent some shine before "fixing" things as intended with the first free title update they get before they get charged for them.
My money is on that being a pre-release decision. They probably always meant to give Sent some shine before "fixing" things as intended with the first free title update they get before they get charged for them.
Ragingnight
Member
and yet skarlet and co were banned from MK9 at evo as well. Your point? AE was only allowed because it was in arcades.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/skarlet-banned-evo-all-dlc-officially-banned-for-evo-2011.4900/
how do you punish MB TP? The video clearly shows him crouching and still blocking the attack. The only thing he has to commit to is the meter.
From a viewer's perspective, you're right. And maybe that's the problem with 3D fighters in terms of their popularity. I don't know fucking anything about Tekken, but in VF you kinda need to know how things work before you can start seeing the crazy hype stuff for what it is.
Lets say you're watching VF and Jacky throws out an elbow, which Akira blocks. Jacky crouch dash fuzzy guards to escape the mid/throw mix-up that he's in because Akira blocked his elbow. Anticipating Jacky's cd fuzzy, Akira goes for a guard break slow enough to catch Jacky standing up from his fuzzy guard. Akira now guarantees 40% damage on Jacky.
That's not even an uncommon read really. The casual viewer who has never seen VF before can't make sense of it though. Jaxel makes this point in one of his videos
I can confirm this sounds like gibberish
Enordash
Member
Exactly, you can't punish MB TP since it's something like +9 on block. People thinking that Scorpion just forces you to be an honest fighter isn't really seeing all there is to see here.
They should just ban him from EVO. There's already precedent for it with MK. People shouldn't be too upset when the latest DLC doesn't get in especially if it wasn't run by the testers first.
:lol
Scorpion made the game look interesting to me. Just need to speed up every other character and give them better moves.
And make it 2vs2 or 3vs3 while we're at it. With assists. There are enough characters in the DC universe. *nod nod*
Scorpion really does kinda break the style of the Injustice game.
That's the thing
Karsticles
Member
Help with what? I don't doubt that many people think he's very good, but I don't care what people say in theory.
But his teleport is punishable, yes? You can get big damage off of it on block? I'm not seeing the inherent problem. Chindogg has the right attitude: see how he performs in a tournament setting.
I don't think that's all important, though. At least half of the people who watch Marvel have no idea how the game is played. Most of the games I enjoy watching, I don't even know what's going on at the technical level.
Ragingnight
Member
You can't punish MB TP. Regular can be punished crouching I believe.
I guess the distinction is that 99% of damage in VF (and again, dunno if this extends to other 3d fighters) is from reads. Virtually (hawhaw) no damage is guaranteed. It's not like SF where someone blocks a wake-up DP and the crowd is like lollll what a dumb fuck HERE COMES THE DAMAGE
Karsticles
Member
What's the frame data for all the versions?
Street Fighter has tons of reads going on; it's still exciting. You'll hear an "oh!" when Ryu dps a Dhalsim c.HP, for example. Or when someone gets tick thrown, or command grabbed. Hell, Zangief is like 100% mindgames, and everyone loves to watch a good Zangief.
Nahh I have no disrespect for SF and don't mean to imply that reads aren't important. Things are just a lot more apparent to an uninformed audience member, I think.
Ragingnight
Member
no idea on normal TP. Thats punishable. MB is +9 on block.
Professor Beef
Banned
This is why I don't listen to theory fighters when it comes to bans. Or anything really.
Karsticles
Member
I think it's more apparent, that's true. But I think that's more due to the variance in characters than the combat system. But I won't go down that road again...
Nabs
Member
No Dieminion at CEO https://twitter.com/Di3mini0n/status/349613792163930112
This is definitely true for me. When I was learning fighting games, I had a much easier time telling what people were doing in 2D games. I've heard someone say matchups were more influential in 2D games, so maybe that might be a reason why things are more apparent.
Ragingnight
Member
I said personally, its not about how OP or broken he is. Its about how soon he got released from CEO/EVO.
The whole DLC cast was banned in 2011 in mk9. Why is it such a big deal to ban a character that came out just recently.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
Nope, he can meter burn to make it safe. Plus the teleport is a 50/50 anyhow with his jumping normals. So you can hold down to block the teleport, but can't punish, but still 50% you're getting hit with an overhead. You try to block or antiair the overhead, you get hit with the teleport.
Plus he makes any zoning based character (which is half the cast) completely unplayable.
Also the way meter burn works in the game, you don't have to commit right when you do the move.
Scorpions biggest issues are that he blows up zoning completely and the instant cross up telelport. With meter eveyrthing he has is safe I belive. It seems like something people can adapt to, but expecting people to learn the match-up in three(?) weeks is a bit much.
It would be like putting Vergil in UMVC3 a month before Evo.
would've been fine. He has weaknesses-- recovery frames out the ass on normals, teleport and helm breaker are punishable. Those optimized combos wouldn't have been so tight yet.
Karsticles
Member
If people want him banned for the "too soon" reason, I can respect that a bit. Just not the "he's too OP" reason, which seems the predominant argument. Though, if he is only out for 3 weeks, to me that means he won't be understood well by the people who use him, either. Vergil took a good 6 months to become scary. If he came out a month before Evo, he definitely would not have been in a significant number of teams. Most people thought he was a mediocre character on release; even Seth thought he was "mid tier".
Shouta
Member
It has a little bit to do with characters but a lot has to do with combat IMO. Reads in VF are often hidden in the little movement or defense options that occur and are very frequent. SF reads are usually really big looking like DPing a cr.hp or catching a really obvious backdash, etc.
irfaanator
Banned
should get his brother to go in for him
There are wayyy more common denominators between characters in VF, and in turn less matchup info. That's not to say that matchup knowledge isn't important, and it definitely doesn't mean if you know how to play Wolf you know how to play Shun. Personally, I think this is a good thing as VF has this rep of being impossible to get into but it's actually really beginner friendly in a lot of ways. It NEEDS to be more audience friendly though if AM2 likes American $$$
Karsticles
Member
That's true. But I feel that's more of a graphical issue than a game mechanic one. If the movements and defensive options were mo aesthetically pronounced, do you think the same problem would exist? Tekken roughly has wakeup DPs and such (not as good, of course), but it's not as graphically pronounced. Street Fighter does a good job of adding visual flare to make player actions recognizable even to laymen, and that doesn't seem to be the case with VF and Tekken (Soul Calibur seems more pronounced). Would you agree with that?
I think the same thing about Tekken. I thought the game would be a lot more complicated than it is. Tekken is surprisingly simple. From a game mechanics standpoint, I mean. Not characters.
They've always said the Sent patch was in the works pre-release, and given the timing (and Capcom's slow-as-molasses response times) I believe them.
BillyBones
Neo Member
You think that's bad?
Evo 2k7 ST Winner's finals John Choi (Ryu) v. Tokido (Claw.)
Yes, the whole match was pretty much like this...and grand finals were even worse.
Fun fact: before he was "fixing" Super Turbo. David Sirlin was advising on the "Arcade Perfect" version of ST in the capcom classics collection for PS2. He assured everyone that this version was arcade perfect and should be chosen for evo 2007. Yeah, turns out he was wrong about that, and it had input delay.
If you watch all Tokido's matches from that year you'll notice he keeps picking Zangief's stage. That's because that stage lags worse than any other. Making it even harder to react to Claw's off the wall mixups. There was one instance, though, where his opponent was wise to this and made him pick a different stage. That opponent's name? David Sirlin.
Scorpions most obvious tools are very powerful though. He's a bit like vanilla Wolverine or SF4 Sagat in that regard. He has a tool that's easily abusable and can be made safe like berserker slash or tiger uppercut. He has a better cross-up than most characters and he has all of the other tools needed to succeed in Injustice as a character as well.
I guess I could have used a better example than Vergil, I forgot the U.S. didn't use him during the early days of marvel. It would be like putting Wolverine or Dark Phoenix in Vanilla a month before Evo would be a better comparison.
Here's an example of scorpion vs good nrs fans who know how to block crossups:
http://www.twitch.tv/kombatnetwork/b/420521717?t=4h59m20s
http://www.twitch.tv/kombatnetwork/b/420521717?t=4h59m20s
AM2 is in a tight spot because their casual audience is practically non existing, especially compared against other SEGA IPs and other fighting games. If they betray the competitive community and fail to interest the general audience, there will be no VF6 verB.
With that in mind, making the already solid mechanics flashy seems like a pretty good compromise. VF isn't really realistic in the first place, let rockets go off and sparks ejaculate all over the place when someone lands a reversal or escapes a throw. As long as the game doesn't change, you can add gore for all I care.
There's a huge fundamental difference between ST folks and Injustice folks.
ST folks wanted a broken game.
ST would get laughed at today if it was released because of the brokenness. The standards have been raised massively for FG quality this gen.
As for VF, I think it did an ok job attracting new talent. They released it fairly cheaply, and it received a warm reception. Also, they've had sales. The problem is VF just requires a fundamentally different mindset than almost any other fighter- it's different than even most of the other 3D fighters- SC players have the easiest time transitioning, but even there you have a mental shift. That's what makes it hard to draw in players.
The big difference is almost every other fighter you can bully folks around, you just can't do that in VF- you have to give equal attention to your defense and your offense at all levels (I know, it's hypocritical for me to talk about it- my defense is crap)
Parallax Scroll
Banned
The point is that it's not only MK players who aren't used to crossups that are complaining.