I agree with you, listening to that 911 call with the screaming in the background a few times today it really doesn't make much sense. If ZM was getting pounded he wouldn't be consistently yelling as you can hear in the call. I'm still surprised about the lack of remorse that he shows during this whole thing. I just Googled the crime scene photo's and man it makes me feel sick seeing it. If I was the one who had done that I would expect there to be a overwhelming sense of emotion reliving those moments fighting for my life (as he says) then taking a kids life. A lot of things don't add up on both sides.
George Zimmerman (killer of unarmed Florida teen Trayvon Martin) found not guilty
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I agree with you, listening to that 911 call with the screaming in the background a few times today it really doesn't make much sense. If ZM was getting pounded he wouldn't be consistently yelling as you can hear in the call. I'm still surprised about the lack of remorse that he shows during this whole thing. I just Googled the crime scene photo's and man it makes me feel sick seeing it. If I was the one who had done that I would expect there to be a overwhelming sense of emotion reliving those moments fighting for my life (as he says) then taking a kids life. A lot of things don't add up on both sides.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
What about Zimmerman following him for a while in his car, then on foot, then confronting him? Would that be justifiable? Clearly Trayvon saw Zimmerman following him, which is why he ran/walked fast. Would a punch in the nose be justifiable then? Personally, I would be scared this guy wanted to kidnap/rob/hurt me, but maybe that is just me. The laws seem so backwards.
empty vessel
Member
I think we know that did not happen, though. Approaching somebody and asking what they are doing is different from noticeably following them at night for a period of time before approaching them. Especially when the person doing the following is an adult male and the person being followed is a juvenile.
And while you are right that Martin didn't know Zimmerman was armed as far as we know, it's the "as far as we know" that makes all the difference in the world. Martin can't tell us what he saw and knew leading up to the confrontation. It would be highly material if Martin saw that Zimmerman--a person who he had noticed following him--was armed as he was approaching him. For all we know, Zimmerman may even have been holding him at gunpoint (or otherwise displaying his weapon) before the struggle ever ensued. We'll obviously never know the answer to these questions, and Zimmerman will obviously get the benefit of the doubt, legally.
Interesting that Zimmerman was allegedly screaming for help while Martin had his hands over his mouth, and beating his head into the concrete, and reaching for his weapon, and punching his face repeatedly.
Keep in mind, Martin had just turned 17 years old, and he wasn't exactly a buff individual.
Keep in mind, Martin had just turned 17 years old, and he wasn't exactly a buff individual.
I hate mysteries like this it's really to bad half of these neighbors didn't look outside when they first heard the noises.
With no DNA on Martin I think we can rule out that, I now your being sarcastic. Looking at the crime scene pics Martin is maybe as tall as Zimmerman but definitely still a kid ZM has some advantage on weight.
crackhead_bob
Member
If he doesn't testify, then his interview with Det. Serino at the crime scene should then be permitted in lieu of Zimmerman's refusal to take the stand. With only one person alive to recall the events, the defendant should provide his side of the story if his claim of self defense is to be taken into consideration. At the very least, the interview does provide some testimony to what happened that night, which if I were a juror, would be better than nothing, since he seems reluctant to tell his side of the story in court.
RustyNails
Member
Just going by the recording which I am hearing for the first time, I think the person screaming (for help?) is Trayvon.
It's hard to say since we haven't heard either of their voices in distress, but this was my first thought as well especially because it stops after the shot. If it were me and I shot someone I'd be yelling for help still and call the police! Someone help etc.
Portugeezer
Member
100% accurate lie detector tests would fix all of this. We need this to be made!
RustyNails
Member
Yeah Zimmerman screaming for help doesn't make much context.
Dude Abides
Banned
Thanks, that is what I assumed, I just didn't know for sure.
You're very welcome.
Yeah. I really do hope Zimmerman takes the stand. His whole account is just off in crucial ways.
What about Zimmerman following him for a while in his car, then on foot, then confronting him? Would that be justifiable? Clearly Trayvon saw Zimmerman following him, which is why he ran/walked fast. Would a punch in the nose be justifiable then? Personally, I would be scared this guy wanted to kidnap/rob/hurt me, but maybe that is just me. The laws seem so backwards.
Maybe, EV also brought up that very good point.
Do you think following in one's car and then on foot establishes a reasonable belief in imminent physical harm? It may, but I don't think it should. I think threatening language or brandishing of a weapon (or of course an actual attempted battery) should be required before you can use force against someone. I think loosening the standard generally would result in more legally justified vigilantism.
I do agree that seeing someone armed might make it reasonable to physically defend oneself to prevent the pursuer from drawing the firearm.
faceless007
Member
Supposedly Zimmerman's story is that Martin was on top of him pummeling him, and Z was able to reach for his gun and shoot him. It seems a little odd to me that he would have the presence of mind to simultaneously be screaming for help while panicked, and get his gun out, aim it and shoot.
Yeah certainly harder to do in close combat like that, what would make more sense is if the gun was already out and he was struggling to point it at Martin that's why the help screams seem to get more desperate right before the shot.
Big Baybee
Member
Was there any of Trayvon's blood on Zimmerman after he shot him?
I would love to see him get on the stand and have the prosecution spend 7 hours nit picking every part of his story, not even necessarily because I want to see him behind bars (only do if he actually did wrong) but because I still don't get it.
How long was the struggle, at least 30 seconds right? Why in those 30 seconds did he not like... punch Martin? Martin has no wounds to show he was physically hit, but he is smaller, weaker and not as trained in martial arts as Zimmerman is... how did that fight go down? The claim is that during this fight there were points where he was held down (by someone not as heavy as him, but okay), punched repeatedly in the face, while also having his head smacked against the concrete, and also having his screams muffled. If he is claiming the recorded screams are his screams... when did that muffling happen? Why didn't he do anything -other- than scream until the gun came into play? In fact how did the whole gun thing play out, as far as I remember there was no sign that martin even touched the gun. It's all very confusing, and just a clear statement would be really interesting.
I don't think anyone here is saying the kid deserved it or ZM had reason to do it. We are all trying to figure out how all of this went down the stories just don't match up. I really haven't heard enough to sway me either way at this point nothing is clear and probably never will be. He could get off because the jury is just as confused as we are much like the Casey Anthony case the jury knew she had something to do with the daughters death but couldn't prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that's all it takes unfortunately.
I believe they already have something that can do this already, but it involves electrodes in your brain and a whole bunch of invasive stuff.
And this case is very interesting in that it brings out the racists of all skin colors. Always fun to watch.
empty vessel
Member
I don't know Florida law, but I can't imagine they use anything but a totality of the circumstances test. And that means every case that goes to trial will boil down to the jury's judgment. I imagine states may have built up some case law about what is reasonable or unreasonable as a matter of law, but that would likely just become an appellate issue rather than something that is settled at trial. I'd be interested in seeing how the jury is instructed in this case.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
I realize instructions are going to vary case by case (nor do I know where Florida case law falls on this issue), but for what it's worth I copied over the Standard Florida State Jury Instruction form for justifiable use of deadly force. I cleaned it up a little and took out what I thought was clearly irrelevant.
Xenon
Member
I don't think anybody thinks he should have shot that kid.
that's not true.
PotatoeMasher
Member
Too bad Edward Snowden can't just leak the phone calls that the Rachel lady had with Trayvon. There's honestly no telling what was actually said on them and whether they actually have any info on the case. I trust her so little that I basically assume she knows nothing. But imagine if they contained an accurate recording of everything that preceded the shots and how that could basically clear up this case.
thats what I was thinking, where is the NSA when you actually need them?
Did she really tell Trayvon that he should run home, or did she tell him to beat that crackers ass? I don't trust her testimony for shit.
DragonSworne
Banned
The most likely event that makes the most sense in context of the evidence is Zimmerman chased Martin down, tackled Martin when he started running away, got punched in the nose, then in anger shot the kid as Martin continued to struggle free while screaming for help.
I see it happen all the time when cops chase people down, the difference is cops are trained professionals and don't just kill people out of frustration.
Second degree murder is going light on the guy given what he said on the 911 tapes, but there just isn't enough evidence to say it was first degree.
I see it happen all the time when cops chase people down, the difference is cops are trained professionals and don't just kill people out of frustration.
Second degree murder is going light on the guy given what he said on the 911 tapes, but there just isn't enough evidence to say it was first degree.
PotatoeMasher
Member
What specifically indicates second degree murder to you from the call? Honest question as I haven't listened to it in a long time.
If I recall correctly there was a cut or something on Trayvons knuckes/hand. I could be wrong.
I get the impression Trayvon had several minutes to go inside. Instead he lingered.
Zimmerman the stalker.
Trayvon the lurker.
PotatoeMasher
Member
Zimmerman's story (as best I recall from the reenactment) was that Trayvon went behind the houses (turning right at the top of the T intersection, which is when he says "he got away" on the tape) and that Zimmerman continued straight through the top of the T intersection to try and get a street name to give the cops. When he ended the call and and got past the middle of the T intersection Trayvon yelled at him and he turned around. His claim at that point was that Trayvon rushed him as he went to grab his cellphone.
It's really too bad there doesn't seem to be any useful evidence of what transpired when they actually encountered each other (neither Rachel Jeantel or Zimmerman are trustworthy on their own).
edit: Is the reenactment going to be used in the trial?
I don't find anything odd about that.Screaming is very much a natural reaction for some people.
Still too early to tell, but does anyone think Zimmerman will get off? They've charged him with second-degree murder, and while he did in fact shoot and kill Trayvon, is there enough evidence he willfully did it? I haven't been following it much, but it's basically he said/she said, followed by eyewitness testimony which has historically been shown to be quite inaccurate.
Haven't followed the trial closely but I did watch Rachel Jeantel.
People defending Zimmerman have tried to label Martin as a thug and at the same time have denied racial bias from their side. Now Jeantel is using "cracker" slurs and acting disrespectfully - as if to legitimize their argument.
Not only does this work against the prosecution but once again the whole nation is witnessing a young black American who is barely able to conjure up words properly. A testimony to wasted trillions and an utter failure as far as education is considered. How do people like her exist in a modern society, a senior in high school who is not able to read or write in the cursive style?
I don't see how Zimmerman could possibly be convicted after such a freak show - "beyond reasonable doubt" and all that.
People defending Zimmerman have tried to label Martin as a thug and at the same time have denied racial bias from their side. Now Jeantel is using "cracker" slurs and acting disrespectfully - as if to legitimize their argument.
Not only does this work against the prosecution but once again the whole nation is witnessing a young black American who is barely able to conjure up words properly. A testimony to wasted trillions and an utter failure as far as education is considered. How do people like her exist in a modern society, a senior in high school who is not able to read or write in the cursive style?
I don't see how Zimmerman could possibly be convicted after such a freak show - "beyond reasonable doubt" and all that.
Velcro Fly
Member
I think labeling Martin anything based on her testimony is exactly bias because of race.
If a white person was testifying and using slurs such as "and then that creepy n..... was" do you think it would play well for the defense in a similar situation?
Her testimony was a disaster considering the tactics that the defense has used. They have tried to raise questions such as :
-We don't know what happened exactly. What kind of person was Trayvon Martin? An upstanding citizen or possibly a thug who attacked Zimmerman? Who did they associate with and so on...
And then you bring in this witness. There are no excuses and second degree murder isn't going to fly. Should have gone for manslaughter but that was never going to happen, because millions of people decided they had an emotional connection to this specific incident.
Dude Abides
Banned
I dont know why you think her testimony makes Martin some kind of gangbanger.
A manslaughter charge makes no sense. People seem to think it's some kind of catch all for where someone dies and they have a vague feeling murder can't be proven, but the word has a specific meaning.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
He was black and had shifty eyes.
The whole problem is the jury system, it is completely antiquated. A relic of the past when small communities were given the chance to convict a person from their own village thus negating possible tension.
A bunch of non professionals trying to figure out what the circumstances were. I believe after this testimony they might be more inclined to question the validity of the prosecution's argument. Depending on their background they might also have a slightly altered view of Trayvon Martin after witnessing what kind of people he associated with. Who knows, it's all smoke and mirrors. Racial slurs and poor behavior during trial doesn't determine the outcome but it helps the defense significantly when they are trying to draw this mental image - people who behave inappropriately, are not educated, have a short fuse and what not.
Dude Abides
Banned
But it doesn't fit. If Zimmerman just rolled up on Martin and shot him unprovoked, it would certainly be 2nd Degree murder. The only reason were having a trial is Zimmerman claims self defense, which negates the charge of 2nd Degree murder, it doesn't reduce it to manslaughter. If it turns out theat Zimmerman provoked the alleged assault by Martin, that takes away the self defense defense, leaving us back at murder, not manslaughter.
In some states manslaughter is appropriate for "imperfect self defense" where the defendant used force in self defense but was unreasonable in doing so, but Florida is not one of those states.
RoninChaos
Member
I'd agree with this. My coworkers and I were taking and one felt that not only was the defense badgering her for credibility's sake, but there was the part where he asked her to read that letter. My coworker feels like the defense wanted this girls lack of education to come thorough so it could run with the narrative of Trayvon being and uneducated weed smoking thug that the right wing news media ran with. A lot of older people believe you are who you hang out with. Because of her, because she lied, and she was definitely the most important witness, this plays into that idea. The defense has now been able to bring that attitude and bias into the court room.
And then there was the exchange where she was asked if she thought this was a racial thing. She said she didn't watch the news, she said no one told her it was racially motivated and her response was "oh it was because he was being followed in the rain. I mean c'mon" and before that she's stating Martin desribed Zimmerman as a cracker. The only person showing any "race" bias was her and Martin because of her testimony.
This girl is obviously uneducated, and did not want to be there. That was what made it worse. Her friend was MURDERED and she looked irritated that she even had to be there. That's the part that stuck out to me the most. I can't see how that can be seen as a positive.
Was kind of hoping for a serious response
This is one of those things that I also do not understand. The apparent indifference towards the trial itself. Lack of education obviously is a factor but one would assume she had received at least some sort of training etc.
Gorechylde
Member
Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch liaison(sp) and there had been thefts in the community prior to this incident. He saw a hodded male walking around "As if on drugs or something" and called the police.
I don't believe the defense claims Martin was engaging in any illegal activity.
If they can't prove the depraved mind, but self defense doesn't stick, it fits
As I understand it, he was the neighborhood watchdog for a gated community right? I live in a "gated" community (well not really as there is no actual gate) ... is Zimmerman claiming Trayvon was trespassing or something? I mean, I'm struggling to understand why Zimmerman thought Trayvon was a threat. What was he doing? It was simply his profile?
Dude Abides
Banned
No, it doesn't. Shooting someone in the chest proves the depraved mind. They might ask for an instruction on it anyway in the hope the jury will just convict him for something out of a sense he is partially responsible, but it won't make legal sense.
I agree with you, but I've seen several FL criminal defense lawyers make the same point, so I'm taking their word for it.
He already called the police and they were already on the way. He followed Trayvon so he could give give the police an accurate location of where he was.
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