Really?
George Zimmerman (killer of unarmed Florida teen Trayvon Martin) found not guilty
- Thread starter Dude Abides
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Really?
Dude Abides
Banned
This guy is a bit snippy to counsel for both sides.
methane47
Member
A broken nose can occur from a very small amount of force. Even a child can break a grown man's nose. It could have occured from a punch, an elbow, he could have accidentally broken his own nose. He could have fell on his face and broken his nose, etc etc.
Anyways a broken nose is not indicative of a thrashing. I'm more suprised that in this bare fisted ground and pound thrashing, Zims came out with no bruising, No concussion, only scratches and a broken nose
Zoe
Member
It can take time for bruises and swelling to show up though. Doesn't sound like they did a thorough follow-up of his injuries after that night.
The testimony is relevant and credible, whether you think it or not and the prosecution has a duty to ensure fair trial. This includes calling every credible witness and disclosing every piece of evidence, including ones that are potentially exculpatory. Also, we don't know if TM committed a crime and witness testimonies are important in determining that.
Can anyone tell if his nose is broken in the police station pics?
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Not really. TM is dead because some idiot wanted to be a hero, got out of his car and stalked an innocent kid with a gun. Regardless of whether Zimmerman decided to confront an innocent kid with a gun, or TM STOOD HIS GROUND, and confronted a person who was harassing him, the death is the fault of Zimmerman.
While I do think Murder 2 is reaching, with the absence of eye witnesses, at the very least Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter due to his incompetence.
Zoe
Member
He actually didn't. His father's girlfriend lived there.
Can't say I'm familiar with broken noses, but that's not what his nose looks like uninjured.
methane47
Member
TM did not commit a crime, means that there was NO reason AT ALL for Zim to follow him.
And the Stalking is important because that is what escalated the event to a fight. Zim's actions are directly the cause for the Fight to start, how can he claim self defense if his threatening actions are exactly what started the fight, and exactly what ended the fight.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Makes you wonder what kind of a wimp Zimmerman is. If you have 50lbs on a guy in MMA, you have a HUGE advantage on the ground. Especially if you're trained and the guy you're fighting is untrained.
I mean, was Treyvon Martin a mutant or something? Supposedly he could run 100 yards in under a minute, and he ripped a grown man apart who had training and 50lbs on him. Yet the kid was built like olive oil.
I'm surprised the bullet didn't bounce off his chest.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Assuming Zimmerman was even trained for MMA, or whether he just worked out at an MMA gym. and wasn't horrible at it.
I may be wrong, but Zimmerman had permanent residence in the housing development and TM did not, correct? If TM lived there then I'm wrong, I thought he was just visiting.
I'm not saying it's a big deal, just that one flat out live there and the other did not.
A lot of you are trying to hold on to the idea that Zimmerman started this because he followed him. Sure, had Zimmerman not followed him we wouldn't be here now. It doesn't though from a legal stand point because it wasn't illegal. All that matters legally is who started the initial contact, verbally but especially physically.
I totally concede that yeah, it may not have been the best idea to follow him in the first place. It doesn't matter though. It may from a moral standpoint if you want to just discuss that issue, but it doesn't matter legally. There is a reason that neither side is latching onto that part of the situation. They know it's pointless to go there, for the most part.
If Zimmerman was following him shouting out at him, or had his gun pulled and was holding it, or anything like that then it would be a different story. Again, I could be wrong, but I'm faily sure he was just following him and that's it. If I'm wrong on that, let me know.
I wonder if there will be any specialists on the stand. I want to know more about this fight from the perspective of someone who would know more. For example, if Martin was MMA beating Zimmerman, is it possible that none of Zimmerman's DNA would appear on Martin's hands? If Martin was shot while he was ontop of Zimmerman, is it possible that when he slumped over dead (it was instant as far as I remember) that there would be no blood from the bullethole falling ontop of Zimmerman? Stuff like that. And I'll say it again, I really want Zimmerman on the stand because I still do not get this fight. How could he have been so helpless that he couldn't fight back for about a minute, with a relatively smaller person ontop of him EVEN when the fight somehow moved many feet away? Were they shimmying all over the ground from the grass to the sidewalk? And in all that he couldn't... you know... push Martin off, or even fight back? But when Martin spotted the gun, suddenly he had the strength and ability to use his arms?
Dude Abides
Banned
They have to be disclosed, but not called in most states. See this(old) article about the prosecution's duty to call adverse witnesses.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=SuEVw6EiXKt8bQqrFfz1Gg&bvm=bv.48572450,d.dmQ
I've worked out at an MMA gym. You are training, because there's no way you can be at a gym like that and not pick up some stuff.
Also even untrained, 50lbs on the bottom is a very big weight advantage. There are positions on top that you have to use to hold someone on the bottom who has that kind of weight advantage.
Dubbmobile
Member
So to those following the case, the witness that lied about the following the younger Zimmerman brother on twitter. Are they throwing out her testimony because of it? What was the outcome of that?
empty vessel
Member
Legally, it doesn't. Practically, it might.
Legally, if the jury instructions that another member posted are accurate, it comes down to whether the jury finds that Zimmerman was the aggressor, i.e., whether he "initially provoked the use of force against himself." That's an awfully broad formulation that the jury will have tons of leeway to decide, and it does not by its own terms require a finding that Zimmerman physically struck first; only that he "provoked" violence against him. If the jury finds Zimmerman to be the aggressor, then Zimmerman's use of lethal force cannot be legally justified unless "the force asserted toward [Zimmerman] was so great that he reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and [Zimmerman] had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on [Martin]"; or "in good faith, [Zimmerman] withdrew from physical contact with [Martin] and clearly indicated to [Martin] that he wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but [Martin] continued or resumed the use of force."
So what it really boils down to is whether the jury finds that Zimmerman provoked the use of force against himself. If I were on the jury, I would find that he had. And the sentiments of many, many lay people here who feel that Zimmerman has moral culpability for Martin's death would suggest to me that the law ought to consider his actions as provocation sufficient to render him an aggressor.
Was that brought up in court? If so, wow, I'd like to see video of her face when they said it.
No, you make perfectly good points. I agree that if Zimmerman forced TM to assault him have it be by a verbal threat or coming at him or whatever that Zimmerman would be totally at fault. I don't think Zimmerman did that though, and I think they are doing an awful job of proving otherwise to the jury.
I think the "star witness" hurt that line of thinking to the point that there is no coming back from it.
We shall see though.
Thanks, I guess it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Still, I don't see any reason not to call the witness. Perhaps the prosecution wanted the detrimental witness out of the way early, so this testimony won't be the last thing the jury hears.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I don't understand how whether someone lived in a neighborhood or was just visiting has any relevance on the situation whatsoever or that someone can be said to have 'more right' to be there than someone else.
Can't say I'm familiar with broken noses, but that's not what his nose looks like uninjured.
That looks like a broken nose. I've had a few.
Though a little strangely flattened and lack of redness--a broken nose sometimes has a rush of blood to the skin there so it'll look flushed. Not bleeding but swollen and really red.
You are making way too big of a deal out of my saying that. I simply mean that it is more likely to see someone that lives in a place to be walking there than someone who is not normally there. That's all. It doesn't matter at all to the case. I was just "saying".
anarckitty
Member
I plan on this being my last post in this thread. With that being said, my opinion on this tragedy is that it all boils down to something as simple as miscommunication.
Zimmerman was following Martin. Martin got sick of being followed. Martin confronted Zimmerman about what the phuck was up with him following him. Zimmerman probably didn't understand what Martin said and proceeded to get closer to Martin. Martin took this as a sign of aggression. Martin thinking a fight is about to ensue decides to act first and ask questions later. Zimmerman fights back. Martin is beating Zimmerman's ass. Fearing for his life, Zimmerman shoots Martin.
The witness said something along the lines of after the gunshot it looked like Zimmerman was trying to give Martin CPR. I'm sorry, but if your goal is to just kill someone because you have an attitude problem you're not going to immediately turn around and try to perform CPR.
I would be really surprised if Zimmerman is found guilty of 2nd degree murder. If anything he'll probably be found guilty of manslaughter.
It is a terrible tragedy. A 17 year old young man is dead, and a 29 year old has to live with the fact that he killed another person for the rest of his life.
Zimmerman was following Martin. Martin got sick of being followed. Martin confronted Zimmerman about what the phuck was up with him following him. Zimmerman probably didn't understand what Martin said and proceeded to get closer to Martin. Martin took this as a sign of aggression. Martin thinking a fight is about to ensue decides to act first and ask questions later. Zimmerman fights back. Martin is beating Zimmerman's ass. Fearing for his life, Zimmerman shoots Martin.
The witness said something along the lines of after the gunshot it looked like Zimmerman was trying to give Martin CPR. I'm sorry, but if your goal is to just kill someone because you have an attitude problem you're not going to immediately turn around and try to perform CPR.
I would be really surprised if Zimmerman is found guilty of 2nd degree murder. If anything he'll probably be found guilty of manslaughter.
It is a terrible tragedy. A 17 year old young man is dead, and a 29 year old has to live with the fact that he killed another person for the rest of his life.
vas_a_morir
Banned
At this point, I don't think they have a case for manslaughter, either. If he was beating him like this witness says, I think his shooting of Trayvon was legal under Florida law.
I should hope so.
PotatoeMasher
Member
Yep. This much everyone can agree on.
Dubbmobile
Member
Yea it happened yesterday but I missed the end result of it. I think someone on here found her twitter page as well and it showed her following him. Believe she said that didn't know how to use twitter as an explanation to why it was there.
A little of both.
OrangeYouGlad
Banned
That was her excuse. Said she may have accidentally followed someone.
ElRenoRaven
Member
That's honestly what I feel happened too. It's exactly how I feel.
BloodMoney
Banned
I think this is a pretty fair account. The heated back and forth in this thread entirely hinges around what "probably" "maybe" or "might" have happened.
Some people want to think Zimmerman was the aggressor, tracked the kid down, started a fight, and then shot him.
Others want to believe Zimmerman was playing the roll of neighborhood watch, called the police to report a suspicious person, confronted that person, and was subsequently attached to the point where he felt his life was in danger.
At the end of the day we don't know.
Well said. And, I agree.
Yep, no matter the end result of the trial and no matter which side you are on, everyone should agree with that.
I hope the Kevin Costner sound-alike attorney comes back up soon. I got a big kick out of listening to him without video. Is he for the defense or the prosecution?
EDIT:
I'm quoting the entire thing since it's close to exactly how I feel it happened, and just how I feel overall...
The witness says he didn't actually see or hear Trayvon hitting Zimmerman while on top. He just saw the motion of his hands going downward.
Martin could have been fighting to pin Zimmermans hands down to prevent being shot, not punching him as Zimmerman says. That would make sense as Martin only had one knuckle on one hand scrapped up.
Zimmerman's head looks to me like it was scratched as he used it as leverage while he tried to get up, not from being slammed into concrete.
Could provoke in this context be equivalent to the requirements for being justified in using deadly force? In other words would Zimmerman have to be doing something that satisfied the requirements for justifiable use of deadly force in order to legally provoke such a response? Clearly there has to be some minimum standard that applies and what that is might be what decides the case.
I hope they go into a bit more detail in their instructions when the time comes!
methane47
Member
Sounds about right,
but like the following is a big deal for me and really makes me upset when i think about it.
Martin RAN.
Martin tried to RUN AWAY!
He was trying to get away from Danger!
Zimmerman FOLLOWED! Running after him (I assume running because of his heavy breathing on the call)
I dont know about you guys, but if someone is following you in a car, then when you start to run, the person jumps out of the car and starts Chasing you down.. I would be fearful of my life, and may want to stop and fight if I believe I wouldn't be able to get away.
Its CRAZY that someone chases you for no reason, and when you defend yourself, they then claim self defense.
A witness doing the exact same thing Rachel Jeantel did but not getting called out for it.
Zimmerman initiated a confrontation by following Martin. Whether or not Martin confronted Zimmerman, it's likely there would have been no confrontation had Zimmerman obeyed the instructions of the 911 operator and left Martin alone.
Zimmerman and Martin were clearly suspicious of each other, though Martin tried to avoid a confrontation initially while Zimmerman pursued it. Both sides have different stories on how the fight broke out, but we know that it seemed like Martin was trying to get away from Zimmerman initially.
Martin was unarmed, of course Zimmerman didn't know this at first, but it should have been clear later during the ensuing brawl in which only Zimmerman produced a gun. Hopefully there will be more specifics revealed regarding the fight, but it seems like countless other reactions could have slowed the fight than a fatal shot.
By itself, the act of walking in a neighborhood should in no way seem suspicious. If it is, that's for law enforcement to decide, not gun toting residents.
I haven't followed this case as religiously as some here, but if this is the gist of the scenario (not ignoring specifics to be revealed later) the case doesn't seem all that cloudy to me.
Zimmerman and Martin were clearly suspicious of each other, though Martin tried to avoid a confrontation initially while Zimmerman pursued it. Both sides have different stories on how the fight broke out, but we know that it seemed like Martin was trying to get away from Zimmerman initially.
Martin was unarmed, of course Zimmerman didn't know this at first, but it should have been clear later during the ensuing brawl in which only Zimmerman produced a gun. Hopefully there will be more specifics revealed regarding the fight, but it seems like countless other reactions could have slowed the fight than a fatal shot.
By itself, the act of walking in a neighborhood should in no way seem suspicious. If it is, that's for law enforcement to decide, not gun toting residents.
I haven't followed this case as religiously as some here, but if this is the gist of the scenario (not ignoring specifics to be revealed later) the case doesn't seem all that cloudy to me.
Since you have experience, how much air gets through there? If you were on your back would the blood come out the nostrils or pour back in the throat? If someone was sitting on top of you and covering your mouth with your nose in that condition would you have a fear of suffocation?
The problem is that we don't know how it happened. For all we know, the bolded is how it exactly could have happened.
All we know is that we have a dead unarmed kid, and guy who claims he had to defend himself. A fucking one sided biased story. Trayvon can't rise from the ashes and give us his account on the facts.... The witness' seem more confused then even we are about what they saw...
All this shit is telling me is that in America, You can follow someone, when they approach you, you can shoot them, and claim you were defending yourself....
And also that racially profiling is okay...
What kind of fucking logic do our laws abide by?
It makes me so mad. The kid was defending himself from a seemingly looming threat.
I'd love to follow some of yall in a car and then on foot, maybe even to your house to the point until you're ready to turn around and bash my skull in... And don't say you wouldn't, you're lying to yourself in the worst way.
faceless007
Member
I don't think even Zimmerman claims that's what's happened, and it's more believable than what he claims.
IIRC, he claims he stopped following Martin and was walking back to his car, when Martin suddenly appeared behind him, asked "Do you have a problem?", Z said no, and Martin said "Well you have one now" and punched him in the face with no warning.
It depends. I have had two and they were both different. One looked normal, a bit pale and gave me two MASSIVE black eyes, and sinus/breathing difficulties (like a normal head cold) and one looked like George's nose in that shot. That one I could breathe fine. There is no single type of broken nose.
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