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[call_kotaku]

Getting the OK from a random Nintendo employee is not the same as getting the legal ok.

We have no idea who in Nintendo they were in contact with, so it's not safe to make that assumption. If you ask legal to exercise their rights in regards to their IP, they'll shut stuff down without considering the context everytime. Yes, in hindsight they should've known that Nintendo is notorious for being completely out of touch with how streaming media and the internet works, and has a general disdain for the smash competitive community. It's pretty silly that tons of companies are trying to get their games a presence at big events like EVO or MLG but Nintendo will actively undermine the efforts of their own fanbase at every turn.

 

[qq more]

omfg are you guys still defending Nintendo?

 

[call_kotaku]

omfg are you guys still defending Nintendo?

How else can companies defend their intellectual properties from massive free advertising and fan goodwill? It was self defense you have to understand.

 

[The Last Emperor]

How else can companies defend their intellectual properties from massive free advertising and fan goodwill? It was self defense you have to understand.

We're you the one who called kotaku?

 

[Hitokage]

Nintendo is apparently a company that doesn't want its customers to play their games. Meanwhile Capcom pretty much gets a three day infomercial about people playing theirs largely for free and loves it.

 

[ArtHands]

PR had to have stepped in with the quickness. There is literally no way to spin this story positively. Even if Nintendo is in their legal rights to shut it down - which, near as I can tell, they were - there is no way to spin shitting on a group of fans who raised 90k in donations for breast cancer to get the chance to be in a big event the week of said event in a way that makes Nintendo not look like massive assholes.

I'd like to think maybe Nintendo learned something from this, but I doubt it.

I doubt so too. Its a no brainer why this is a bad decision in the first place. Nintendo fully deserves the bad press for this.

 

[Darryl]

omfg are you guys still defending Nintendo?

why defend EVO? you know that you're defending a business as well, right? they're profiting off all this stuff, they're even going to profit off this whole controversy. their recent broadcast admitted that they intentionally avoided contacting the legal department out of fear they'd shut it down. it takes some spin to not see fault on their part.

 

[StreetsAhead]

How else can companies defend their intellectual properties from massive free advertising and fan goodwill? It was self defense you have to understand.

What if someone was using Nintendo's games to steal money under the guise of charity and Nintendo got in trouble because people thought they'd approved the event? What if it was a charity Nintendo didn't want to be associated with, like (hypothetical example) Reprogramming Gays? This is why you ask if it's ok. As copy right holder they have the right to shut it down. It's shitty, sure, but it is what it is because they have to protect themselves.

It's a privilege not a right to stream and make money for it, even if it's for charity.

 

[orznge]

why defend EVO? you know that you're defending a business as well, right? they're profiting off all this stuff, they're even going to profit off this whole controversy. their recent broadcast admitted that they intentionally avoided contacting the legal department out of fear they'd shut it down. it takes some spin to not see fault on their part.

Well, you see 'Darryl', EVO is attempting to profit off of something that is beneficial for all parties involved (players,spectators, advertisers, EVO staff, game devs/publishers) whereas Nintendo is attempting to stifle their own brand, snub their customers, and create bad PR, which is a bad business decision. You seem like a pretty pragmatic, ultraobjective, pedantic guy so I'm sure you can see the difference now that I typed it out for you.

 

[StreetsAhead]

DP

 

[call_kotaku]

why defend EVO? you know that you're defending a business as well, right? they're profiting off all this stuff, they're even going to profit off this whole controversy. their recent broadcast admitted that they intentionally avoided contacting the legal department out of fear they'd shut it down. it takes some spin to not see fault on their part.

They aren't, though, or atleast only to a limited degree. Besides, the community won it via charity fundraiser, so I don't see how you can make an argument that evo went out of their way to get money streaming a nintendo game. The prize pot is given to the winners, and the venue fee is a general fee for all competitors that goes to the ballrooms.

If EVO went straight to Nintendo legal, legal would've shut them down immediately because it's their job to. They most likely contacted the PR and community outreach departments because that's exactly who's supposed to be in charge of this shit. Basically, if EVO wanted to make sure they don't need to run a smash tournament, the easiest way they could've done it is to go directly to Nintendo legal and say "hey, please enforce US copyright law".

It seems strange that nobody remembers that the Smash community raised almost 100k for charity so they'd be able to run the biggest Smash tournament at the biggest fighting game tournament, and somehow it's just a conspiracy for evo to steal Nintendo's dollars.

 

[orznge]

StreetsAhead edited his post out sometime after I read it and before I clicked quote but anyway he just wanted to let everyone know that it's a privilege to stream Nintendo's game and he brought up the fact that gamers donating to a charity that does something like "reprogramming gays" on behalf of a videogame publisher/developer is a legitimate fear for their legal team. I wish firefox had an "undo refresh" button lol

 

[qq more]

StreetsAhead edited his post out sometime after I read it and before I clicked quote but anyway he just wanted to let everyone know that it's a privilege to stream Nintendo's game and he brought up the fact that gamers donating to a charity that does something like "reprogramming gays" on behalf of a videogame publisher/developer is a legitimate fear for their legal team. I wish firefox had an "undo refresh" button lol

He edited it into his previous post.

 

[orznge]

He edited it into his previous post.

oh, my bad, I thought that he edited out because he realized how dumb and strange it sounded.

"shit dude, Nintendo banned tournaments because some trolls co-hosted a tourney with westboro baptist church" lol

 

[StreetsAhead]

They aren't, though, or atleast only to a limited degree. Besides, the community won it via charity fundraiser, so I don't see how you can make an argument that evo went out of their way to get money streaming a nintendo game. The prize pot is given to the winners, and the venue fee is a general fee for all competitors that goes to the ballrooms.

If EVO went straight to Nintendo legal, legal would've shut them down immediately because it's their job to. They most likely contacted the PR and community outreach departments because that's exactly who's supposed to be in charge of this shit. Basically, if EVO wanted to make sure they don't need to run a smash tournament, the easiest way they could've done it is to go directly to Nintendo legal and say "hey, please enforce US copyright law".

Hi Jim (Nintendo Legal Dept. Head),

This is X, from Y.

I spoke with Tim from PR and Kerryn from Community Outreach yesterday about conducting a tournament with Super Smash Bros. Melee (Gamecube, 2001), as part of our charity efforts. They said that they would confirm with your department that they had approved this tournament, but I just wanted to check whether that had gone through yet.

(Here is our broad goal for the tournament, including how the broadcast will be handled)

If there is anything we need to do on our end to make this happen, please let us know ASAP.

Sincerely,
Any person who's not 12 and run a semi-big event before.

oh, my bad, I thought that he edited out because he realized how dumb and strange it sounded.

"shit dude, Nintendo banned tournaments because some trolls co-hosted a tourney with westboro baptist church" lol

No, but when you don't police this stuff you open yourself up to potential bad stuff.

 

[prwxv3]

Glad they reversed but the fact they tried still rubs me the wrong way and that they tried to shut down the entire SB event pisses me off even more. I don't think this is the end of bullshit like this with Nintendo and community stuff for a while. I hope I'm wrong

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Hi Jim (Nintendo Legal Dept. Head),

This is X, from Y.

I spoke with Tim from PR and Kerryn from Community Outreach yesterday about conducting a tournament with Super Smash Bros. Melee (Gamecube, 2001), as part of our charity efforts. They said that they would confirm with your department that they had approved this tournament, but I just wanted to check whether that had gone through yet.

(Here is our broad goal for the tournament, including how the broadcast will be handled)

If there is anything we need to do on our end to make this happen, please let us know ASAP.

Sincerely,
Any person who's not 12 and run a semi-big event before.

I look forward to your upcoming smash tournament.

 

[qq more]

What if someone was using Nintendo's games to steal money under the guise of charity and Nintendo got in trouble because people thought they'd approved the event? What if it was a charity Nintendo didn't want to be associated with, like (hypothetical example) Reprogramming Gays? This is why you ask if it's ok. As copy right holder they have the right to shut it down. It's shitty, sure, but it is what it is because they have to protect themselves.

It's a privilege not a right to stream and make money for it, even if it's for charity.

..............

 

[call_kotaku]

Hi Jim (Nintendo Legal Dept. Head),

This is X, from Y.

I spoke with Tim from PR and Kerryn from Community Outreach yesterday about conducting a tournament with Super Smash Bros. Melee (Gamecube, 2001), as part of our charity efforts. They said that they would confirm with your department that they had approved this tournament, but I just wanted to check whether that had gone through yet.

(Here is our broad goal for the tournament, including how the broadcast will be handled)

If there is anything we need to do on our end to make this happen, please let us know ASAP.

Sincerely,
Any person who's not 12 and run a semi-big event before.

Hi,

Our legal department is there to enforce Nintendo's IP rights within the law. No you can't rebroadcast our game, ever, the law says so. It's not our job to consider the ramifications of community outreach or indulge in gray areas of US copyright law.

Thanks,

Automated Nintendo Legal Department Answering Machine

 

[StreetsAhead]

..............

It's an extreme example, but an example nonetheless.

Hi,

Our legal department is there to enforce Nintendo's IP rights within the law. No you can't rebroadcast our game, ever, the law says so. It's not our job to consider the ramifications of community outreach or indulge in gray areas of US copyright law.

Thanks,

Automated Nintendo Legal Department Answering Machine

Well, at that point I'd be e-mailing the people who I'd already talked to or change the event and move on with my life because it's business and the fucking law and stop being a twat.

 

[LeleSocho]

why defend EVO? you know that you're defending a business as well, right? they're profiting off all this stuff, they're even going to profit off this whole controversy. their recent broadcast admitted that they intentionally avoided contacting the legal department out of fear they'd shut it down. it takes some spin to not see fault on their part.

And you were even mad when people called you out defending nintendo saying that it wasn't true.

I don't know if you understand that most of the money goes to a charity and what they actually manage to profit is to stay afloat year after year, organizing such a big event isn't free or cheap you know?
Also as posted they tried to shut down the entire fucking event. If you ask me all the bad press they had is half of what they really deserve.
We were risking to skip EVO this year because of this bullshit company.

 

[Tripon]

They aren't, though, or atleast only to a limited degree. Besides, the community won it via charity fundraiser, so I don't see how you can make an argument that evo went out of their way to get money streaming a nintendo game. The prize pot is given to the winners, and the venue fee is a general fee for all competitors that goes to the ballrooms.

If EVO went straight to Nintendo legal, legal would've shut them down immediately because it's their job to. They most likely contacted the PR and community outreach departments because that's exactly who's supposed to be in charge of this shit. Basically, if EVO wanted to make sure they don't need to run a smash tournament, the easiest way they could've done it is to go directly to Nintendo legal and say "hey, please enforce US copyright law".

It seems strange that nobody remembers that the Smash community raised almost 100k for charity so they'd be able to run the biggest Smash tournament at the biggest fighting game tournament, and somehow it's just a conspiracy for evo to steal Nintendo's dollars.

You don't see that might be an issue of specially using somebody else's IP to raise revenue, even for a very worthy cause such as Cancer research?

Lets put the charity drive aside at the moment.

When can a person or company uses another company's IP without their permission to raise revenue?

Edit: At the time of the charity drive, I don't believe EVO have asked Nintendo to include Melee and Brawl, please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[call_kotaku]

It's an extreme example, but an example nonetheless.



Well, at that point I'd be e-mailing the people who I'd already talked to or change the event and move on with my life because it's business and the fucking law and stop being a twat.

That's actually exactly what they did. Told people they won't be able to stream Melee and if anyone tries to take video of the smash tournament at Evo they'll be instantly banned from the premises.

They announced it and people flipped their shit.

You don't see that might be an issue of specially using somebody else's IP to raise revenue, even for a very worthy cause such as Cancer research?

Lets put the charity drive aside at the moment.

When can a person or company uses another company's IP without their permission to raise revenue?

It's technically illegal for you to post game footage on youtube or stream anything on twitch, US copyright law massively favors the copyright holder. Most companies don't bother enforcing it because it's stupid, but they can if they want to. Nintendo is just that stupid.

 

[Tripon]

And you were even mad when people called you out defending nintendo saying that it wasn't true.

I don't know if you understand that most of the money goes to a charity and what they actually manage to profit is to stay afloat year after year, organizing such a big event isn't free or cheap you know?
Also as posted they tried to shut down the entire fucking event. If you ask me all the bad press they had is half of what they really deserve.
We were risking to skip EVO this year because of this bullshit company.

As been posted before in this thread, it was the Smash portion of EVO that was being threatened.

 

[Kokonoe]

I'd imagine the certain people who go out of their way to advertise and defend Nintendo games and the company itself at every opportunity as if they are some perfect company that can do no wrong wouldn't mind free Nintendo advertisement on a stream.

 

[StreetsAhead]

That's actually exactly what they did. Told people they won't be able to stream Melee and if anyone tries to take video of the smash tournament at Evo they'll be instantly banned from the premises.

They announced it and people flipped their shit.

Yes, because they got told to stop by legal because they never even tried to ask for permission from them before announcing it and asking for donations.

 

[orznge]

It's an extreme example, but an example nonetheless.



Well, at that point I'd be e-mailing the people who I'd already talked to or change the event and move on with my life because it's business and the fucking law and stop being a twat.

if this kind of shit makes you feel good (which I'm sure it does) I bet you could have a field day with a weed thread. think of all the rulebreakers you can make shitty, rabble-rousing posts at lol

 

[StreetsAhead]

if this kind of shit makes you feel good (which I'm sure it does) I bet you could have a field day with a weed thread. think of all the rulebreakers you can make shitty, rabble-rousing posts at lol

No, I work in a company I deal with a legal department and people who make copy right requests all the time, but feel free to continue this strange line of posting you've now embarked on.

 

[orznge]

I'd imagine the certain people who go out of their way to advertise and defend Nintendo games and the company itself at every opportunity as if they are some perfect company that can do no wrong wouldn't mind free Nintendo advertisement on a stream.

you'd imagine that but in reality they'd probably get a lot more satisfaction out of screaming in someone's face for jaywalking or downloading a no-cd patch for a game they own a physical copy of

 

[guek]

And you were even mad when people called you out defending nintendo saying that it wasn't true.

I don't know if you understand that most of the money goes to a charity and what they actually manage to profit is to stay afloat year after year, organizing such a big event isn't free or cheap you know?
Also as posted they tried to shut down the entire fucking event. If you ask me all the bad press they had is half of what they really deserve.
We were risking to skip EVO this year because of this bullshit company.

Eh? Didn't they just try to shut down the stream?

edit: oh nvm, just catching up to the thread

 

[ffdgh]

The weird thing is that Nintendo could (should?)have noticed this ages ago instead of the last second.

 

[Hitokage]

Legal shouldn't be making business decisions. Evo people talked to Nintendo as if they were a sane company.

 

[Darryl]

Well, you see 'Darryl', EVO is attempting to profit off of something that is beneficial for all parties involved (players,spectators, advertisers, EVO staff, game devs/publishers) whereas Nintendo is attempting to stifle their own brand, snub their customers, and create bad PR, which is a bad business decision. You seem like a pretty pragmatic, ultraobjective, pedantic guy so I'm sure you can see the difference now that I typed it out for you.

I see that. I also see that EVO is a business that made a promise to their audience that they knew they couldn't guarantee. You see this comment up there by one of the heads of EVO, "orznge"?

but he didn't get in touch with their legal department, as you don't always want to go that route, cause they can shut things down early.

This is a business that made that comment. Someone who profits off of things. They knew that the potential for disappointing their fans (who they asked to raise money for charity to stream the game) was present the entire time. That's a shadily run business. That could have potentially had an ill-outcome for many people who got involved with them - players, spectators, fans. They weren't doing a net-good thing. They were skirting legal boundaries and got caught. I'd hope that you'd see this in a pragmatic, ultra-objective manner and understand that this is clearly not a "one party to blame" situation.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

What if someone was using Nintendo's games to steal money under the guise of charity and Nintendo got in trouble because people thought they'd approved the event? What if it was a charity Nintendo didn't want to be associated with, like (hypothetical example) Reprogramming Gays? This is why you ask if it's ok. As copy right holder they have the right to shut it down. It's shitty, sure, but it is what it is because they have to protect themselves.

What if... it wasn't? 'cause it wasn't.

 

[call_kotaku]

Yes, because they got told to stop by legal because they never even tried to ask for permission from them before announcing it and asking for donations.

Yes, in hindsight they should've realized that internal departments at Nintendo have zero communication with each other. It should be common knowledge at this point seeing their efforts these last two generations.

I see that. I also see that EVO is a business that made a promise to their audience that they knew they couldn't guarantee. You see this comment up there by one of the heads of EVO, "orznge"?



This is a business that made that comment. Someone who profits off of things. They knew that the potential for disappointing their fans (who they asked to raise money for charity to stream the game) was present the entire time. That's a shadily run business. That could have potentially had an ill-outcome for many people who got involved with them - players, spectators, fans. They weren't doing a net-good thing. They were skirting legal boundaries and got caught. I'd hope that you'd see this in a pragmatic, ultra-objective manner and understand that this is clearly not a "one party to blame" situation.

Nintendo and Blizzard are literally the only companies in history that ever tried to shut down a competitive scene for their game, and EVO has run for over 10 years in one form or another without encountering this sort of idiocy. There's one party to blame here, unfortunately.

 

[LeleSocho]

As been posted before in this thread, it was the Smash portion of EVO that was being threatened.

Yeah i read now that, well that is almost equally dumb because people already spent their money to attend at the event.

 

[StreetsAhead]

What if... it wasn't? 'cause it wasn't.

And they were supposed to know this, how exactly?

Yes, in hindsight they should've realized that internal departments at Nintendo have zero communication with each other. It should be common knowledge at this point seeing their efforts these last two generations.

It's not uncommon to have terrible communication between departments in any medium to large business.

 

[Hitokage]

Really, what would asking Legal do? They aren't in a position to authorize anything so they'll just say, "it's not authorized so legally you can't". You ask people who are able to make such calls then Legal gets brought in to iron out the details.

 

[Professor Beef]

I see that. I also see that EVO is a business that made a promise to their audience that they knew they couldn't guarantee. You see this comment up there by one of the heads of EVO, "orznge"?



This is a business that made that comment. Someone who profits off of things. They knew that the potential for disappointing their fans (who they asked to raise money for charity to stream the game) was present the entire time. That's a shadily run business. That could have potentially had an ill-outcome for many people who got involved with them - players, spectators, fans. They weren't doing a net-good thing. They were skirting legal boundaries and got caught. I'd hope that you'd see this in a pragmatic, ultra-objective manner and understand that this is clearly not a "one party to blame" situation.

They never had to do something like this in the past because Capcom/Namco/SNK are typically sane companies when it comes to free press and good PR.

And they were supposed to know this, how exactly?

I'm still laughing at "what if the charity was bad." They announced the charity months ahead of time. Unless Nintendo is all of a sudden against breast cancer research.

 

[one_kill]

I'd imagine the certain people who go out of their way to advertise and defend Nintendo games and the company itself at every opportunity as if they are some perfect company that can do no wrong wouldn't mind free Nintendo advertisement on a stream.

The "free advertising" argument is tiring.

It's like saying I could set up a business that streams movies or music for free (i.e., without paying the company that produced them a licensing fee) because I could argue it's "free advertising".

 

[Professor Beef]

The "free advertising" argument is tiring.

It's like saying I could set up a business that streams movies or music for free (i.e., without paying the company that produced them a licensing fee) because I could argue it's "free advertising".

I didn't know playing video games and watching a movie were the same thing.

Well, MGS4 notwithstanding...

 

[call_kotaku]

And they were supposed to know this, how exactly?



It's not uncommon to have terrible communication between departments in any medium to large business.

Nintendo still takes the cake for being the dumbest company about enforcing their IP protections, since it and Sega are the only companies that abused it on youtube and Nintendo is the only company that tried to shut down a community stream. It's not something that can be explained away as "all big companies do this", because Nintendo was the only company that did this.

 

[StreetsAhead]

I'm still laughing at "what if the charity was bad." They announced the charity months ahead of time. Unless Nintendo is all of a sudden against breast cancer research.

It was an example of why you you need to ask in the first place (and why legal gets over zealous sometimes), not necessarily that EVO was bad.

 

[Hitokage]

It's like saying I could set up a business that streams movies or music for free (i.e., without paying the company that produced them a licensing fee) because I could argue it's "free advertising".

You should take a step back and think long and hard about the comparison you just made.

 

[Tripon]

you'd imagine that but in reality they'd probably get a lot more satisfaction out of screaming in someone's face for jaywalking or downloading a no-cd patch for a game they own a physical copy of

Keep on making imaginary, straw-men scenarios, you're doing great. Speaking personally, I'm not defending Nintendo, I am questioning EVO's business practices. There is a difference, and if you don't see that, I think you have to question the emotional investment you have in this argument.

Nintendo did a dumb PR move, but it happened because EVO, who are one of the oldest and largest tournaments hoped to dodge Nintendo's legal department even though they knew that it could become an issue. They hoped that it wouldn't be, and it became one. EVO has relationships and sponsorship's from MadCatz, Capcom, WB Games, Atlus, Iron Galaxy, Marvelous AQL, among others.

Frankly, they should have known better. Actually, they did know better and did it anyway in the hopes that they would get away with it. And they ultimately did get away with it.

 

[GoofsterStud]

I still don't understand the reasoning but...I'm glad the other games are going to get more exposure. They deserve it.

 

[darkblade77]

So the takeback is that Nintendo was just responding as a poor overly large company with uncommunicative departments should have done, and that competitive SSB fans shouldn't bother organizing any large tournaments in the future since they'll have to contact Nintendo legal first, who will (responsibly!) say no?

Welp.

 

[Darryl]

Nintendo and Blizzard are literally the only companies in history that ever tried to shut down a competitive scene for their game, and EVO has run for over 10 years in one form or another without encountering this sort of idiocy. There's one party to blame here, unfortunately.

They never had to do something like this in the past because Capcom/Namco/SNK are typically sane companies when it comes to free press and good PR.

Maybe you guys don't see it - maybe the people at EVO don't see it - but internet streaming is becoming a big deal. Obviously as these things become a big deal and more money is involved, more legal risks get involved, the practices behind these things change. I seen it coming. I was in the camp of hoping we'd get a Smash announcement at EVO because Nintendo was obviously going to be informed of it prior to the stream and might've taken the opportunity to show something off. Apparently that dream was never possible to begin with. It's hilarious thinking how inept some of these people involved are.

Both EVO for not getting involved with Nintendo before something like this and Nintendo for not seeing these things happening and trying to confront the issue themselves.

 

[StreetsAhead]

Keep on making imaginary, straw-men scenarios, you're doing great. Speaking personally, I'm not defending Nintendo, I am questioning EVO's business practices. There is a difference, and if you don't see that, I think you have to question the emotional investment you have in this argument.

Nintendo did a dumb PR move, but it happened because EVO, who are one of the oldest and largest tournaments hoped to dodge Nintendo's legal department even though they knew that it could become an issue. They hoped that it wouldn't be, and it became one. EVO has relationships and sponsorship's from MadCatz, Capcom, WB Games, Atlus, Iron Galaxy, Marvelous AQL, among others.

Frankly, they should have known better. Actually, they did know better and did it anyway in the hopes that they would get away with it. And they ultimately did get away with it.

Thank you for being more eloquent and explaining what I wanted to get across.

 

[Hitokage]

Copyright and trademark law hinge on permission. It's not against the law if somebody sufficiently authorized gave an OK.