That's my point: for me, it's not, nor is it close.
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Fighting Games Weekly | July 15-21 | Post-EVO Pillow Talk
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
That's my point: for me, it's not, nor is it close.
What was it?
Karsticles
Member
Who cares if you did it competitively?
Well, I suggest that your case is not the typical one.
call_kotaku
Member
Movement in Quake and managing recoil in CS are pretty hard, but for modern shooters I'd agree. There's so little you have/need to do in those games.
I don't think starting with pad or keyboard is the problem; it's the fact that modern games don't really reward precision, or atleast don't punish sloppiness as much as games used to, which leads to a lot of bad habits with regards to finger discipline. I struggled with it a lot, and I still have trouble with pressing buttons when I don't need to, or pressing too many when I need to be precise. Fighting games being one genre that mercilessly punishes you for mashing buttons or having messy inputs gives the illusion of being executionally demanding. Pad or keyboard are perfectly adequate I think, and honestly for me adjusting to a dainty Japanese stick took way more effort than learning pad, even if the result felt more natural (and much kinder to my thumbs).
I didn't see the link to it but off the top of my head these were the notables. Note that I don't agree with quite a few stuff on his list.
Top 5 assists (in no order) : Missiles, Jam Session, Mystic Ray, Vajra, Lariat
Next 5: Shopping Cart, Drones, Bolts, Beams, Tatsu/Cold Shots
Top 5 was Zero (#1), Morrigan (#2), Wolverine, Magneto, Firebrand
After that Dorm, Doom, Vergil, Viper, Spencer, Nova, Frank to make the top 12
Next tier included characters like Dante, Strider, Ammy, Phoenix, Hawkeye, MODOK, Strange, Akuma.
Trish, Haggar, Wesker and Spider Man he considered characters who were on the cusp of High tier and Mid tier.
A lot of characters in Mid tier including most notably Shuma. He rated Shuma as good as Joe and better than both Felicia and Jill.
Bottom 2 was Hsien Ko and Ghost Rider. Deadpool shockingly in bottom 10. Task and Sentinel in same tier in Mid tier. The rest are about where you would expect them to be.
Someone like me who played fighting games before playing FPS didn't find the latter easier. Matter of fact, I managed my motion sickness weeks later (that was Quake 2, The Edge map), and could have decent movement months later. If I didn't persevere and stopped after 5 minutes of "WTF is this bullshit", those FPS would have been obscure to the least.
On the contrary, it's obvious people who never played FGs will be lost when trying those moves for the first time.
On the contrary, it's obvious people who never played FGs will be lost when trying those moves for the first time.
toddhunter
Member
I simply can't do it.
Well I know the more advanced motions in FPSs and I can tell you they're not easier than QCFs. In fact, you use QCFs to do certain movements in FPSs.
So I agree with the first sentence of your statement:
"For the general populace, doing a qcf consistently is really hard."
However, the second part is incorrect.
"There's more execution required in a single qcf motion than in any FPS."
EDIT: The playing competitively part has to do with knowing the demands of each genre. You've never heard "oh man, fighting games are so easy" and then seen someone mash kicks with Law/Eddy? That's what I see when I see people bashing FPS motions. It's not that they're Quake 3 PC difficult, but it's not easy to do the advanced stuff either.
Karsticles
Member
Color me unconvinced.
Play someone legitimately good (even in COD) instead of hopping online and you'll see that you're basically Hsien Ko vs a Magneto. Playing CoD online and forming an opinion is like playing ranked Marvel online when you're at Beginner level and forming an opinion. Yeah I guess you can do the basic shit in an FPS and be semi-competent, but you can also just do magic series in Marvel and be semi-competent.
FPS games certainty do take execution. A lot of that is reaction time and doing what you need to do in that time, without choking or mistiming inputs, very much akin to what you have to deal with in fighting games. This goes doubly so in twitch shooters which usually have more complex movement options.
SmokeMaxX is also right about quarter-circle-esque movement. Hell even SRK-esque inputs when it comes to trying to throw off your opponents aim. Maybe not precision heavy, but you have to do it fast, and often without being a sitting duck. Don't, and your dead.
EDIT: Flux says he's considering a secondary Morrigan team with Storm on point.
SmokeMaxX is also right about quarter-circle-esque movement. Hell even SRK-esque inputs when it comes to trying to throw off your opponents aim. Maybe not precision heavy, but you have to do it fast, and often without being a sitting duck. Don't, and your dead.
EDIT: Flux says he's considering a secondary Morrigan team with Storm on point.
That's mobility though, not inflicting damage. Comparing strafing to fireballs is not an apt comparison... you should be comparing strafing to wave dashing/plink dashing.
Anyone can aim, move, shoot, melee and toss a grenade in a COD game on PC. The difference between bad and good comes from how well you do it and how well you combine all these elements. Not everyone can perform half circles, reverse DPs, double QCFs, plinks, weird charge motions and 1 frame links. The execution requirement to actually inflict damage is quite different between shooters and fighters.
And reaction time isn't execution.
Anyone can aim, move, shoot, melee and toss a grenade in a COD game on PC. The difference between bad and good comes from how well you do it and how well you combine all these elements. Not everyone can perform half circles, reverse DPs, double QCFs, plinks, weird charge motions and 1 frame links. The execution requirement to actually inflict damage is quite different between shooters and fighters.
And reaction time isn't execution.
Professor Beef
Banned
I learned all my Street Fighter 2 motions on pad. The only thing I couldn't do was an SPD, but I was also around...10 or 11, I think? Did Hyper Fighting come out in '94 on SNES?
"God's Beard!"
Member
I play Gunz the Duel
call_kotaku
Member
Most basic classic FPS movement
Here's 2GD, accomplished Quake player and commentator, teaching how to do one basic map-specific jump.
Besides, in a slower-paced fighter like SF games, you don't necessarily need to be able to do special moves to control space or punish mistakes, people just assume it's a matter of being able to do fireballs in the same way that they assume Daigo wins because all he does is fireballs. Any high-level street fighter player can beat me using only normals.
Don't worry, no one could do SPDs where I was either.
direct_quote
Member
Yah but how many modern shooters incorporate similar air control mechanics to allow advanced movement like bunny hopping besides Quake Live? Skill-based movement in shooting games has really gone down hill and you only see it present in indy shooters.....
Inputs are inputs, and execution, to me, is how well/appropriately and how consistently you use those inputs. If your drawing lines between different kinds of inputs in the first place then it's not worth comparing a stick + 8 buttons against a traditional controller or kb/m because they're so different.
It's kinda an odd and meaningless comparison anyways. It's like saying "what takes more skill, Starcraft or fighting games?" Both take very different skillsets with very different inputs and very different gameplay.
Karsticles
Member
This is going like every other conversation with you. You're not even on topic. This has very little to do with execution requirements. Map knowledge, gun knowledge, reaction times, etc. all play a huge role here. I don't doubt that FPS games require a ton of practice to get good at, and that a hardcore player would slaughter me. That's all completely unrelated to my claim.
Now this is convincing to some degree.
That's incorrect. Anyone who is already used to FPS can aim and move. People who never played those type of games can be utterly lost on those basic things.
The other incorrect thing is that you don't need to perform special moves or 1 frame links (seriously ?) to inflict damage in a fighter.
call_kotaku
Member
By that logic anyone can press a button or walk forward in a fighting game, and advanced movement options are only necessary above a certain point. Getting a solid rocket/spinfuzor hit or a headshot in a classic shooter is quite difficult and executionally intensive as well. I guess bushido blade really needs to make a comeback.
Yeah, but it's important to make that distinction instead of painting it with a broad brush. It's a bad look to complain about ignorance towards fighting games while making inaccurate comparisons towards other genres.
Executional requirements for fighting games are way overstated, I think. It exists, but it's neither the core of the game nor the most difficult thing about them, and honestly I don't believe it's what's keeping people from playing them, it's just the most obvious scapegoat.
I never said anything about "need" I am talking about the difference in execution requirement to perform moves that lead into significant damage.
Is it easier to press left click on mouse or QCF??
Is it easier to press Q for melee or DP?
Press F to throw grenade or half circle?
Obviously you don't NEED to use special moves to inflict damage just like you don't need to use grenades and melee.
Performing a jump rocket is like performing a super jump Iron Man hit confirm into full combo. It's an advance tactic, we are just talking about basic requirements here. Shooters are just much easier to get into for your average gamer. I can pick up and play the next Halo game to a point where I am not ass in a short time where as if I tried to pick up KOF it would take me a long time to get to a comparable level.
I started fighters with SF2 at launch day at SHGL, so grew up playing on sticks, and fighters are in my dna. I got into FPS games later with calladoody MW, and watching pro matches of BO2 tournaments, the top players look just like i do play style wise. While someone like what chris g can do with morrigan is completely out of the realm of what im capable of in umvc3. Now, a game like quake is a LOT different then calladoody, but quake isnt even in the same realm of popularity as COD.
Karsticles
Member
To be fair, that's because CoD is a shitty game.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
World at War best COD
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
You seem to be basing your opinion on low level play if you think playing FPS games is so easy and doesn't take any execution. Making a precise quick snipe shot requires more "execution" than rolling your thumb across a dpad. It's not like rolling your thumb across the dpad is some godlike technique that you have to master. Yeah anyone can aim if you give them an hour to do so, but in the real world, you have moving targets that are strafing and also shooting at you. To hit them takes execution (being able to precisely maneuver your reticle onto a moving target instead of, again, just rolling your thumb across a dpad). I expect the failure rate of doing this to be higher than having someone chucking fireballs.
In addition, your argument isn't even convincing. The map can be an open field with no cover, you both could use the same guns that are just point and shoot, and you both could have the same reaction time. You'd still get slaughtered by someone who knows how to move, aim, and do reload cancelling, dash cancelling, drop shotting, etc. What would happen is that you'd get beat by someone who can execute those things better than you can and that proves my point. Just because anyone can hold down the trigger to aim doesn't mean anyone can do it in any way useful to an actual match and that shouldn't negate how "difficult" it is to do practically.
Agreed. Pretty much the only CoD that I've played (started at 4) that requires skill to be legitimately good at it. Probably why it wasn't very popular.
Lee Chaolan
Member
Wow, Can't believe someone got on video the Yipes and Uglywhen match! Sucks we miss so many good matches off stream, it kills me. Glad we at least got to see this. Love good Phoenix Wright players. Shame either of them had to lose.
What's more difficult, the most advanced technique an FPS player uses or a qcf motion? That was the original argument, as ridiculous as it sounds.
I don't know man, sometimes my hands DON'T make a qcf motion. Shit's terrible.
Anyone get CvS2?
KidA Seven
Member
You can't compare the two. They're completely different.
call_kotaku
Member
Normals do plenty of damage in most games, though, and special moves are generally there to add utility, not damage. Combos have become more important over the years, true, but if you hit me with a dozen Far Cs in KOF I'm going to lose, whereas if you have a button that said "HD 100% combo" it doesn't mean you're instantly good at the game, just like having AAAAutocombos and two-button DP didn't really make P4A that much easier.
I don't believe fighting games are hard to get into because of manual dexterity reasons, it's just a matter of most games today being very careful to never tell players how badly they're playing, or really letting them feel like they've lost. Very few games now are about simply beating someone else by being better than they are, they usually run a bunch of parallel objectives or make you grind on a ladder, where other players are just inhabitants not necessarily opponents, even if you're competing with them.
Meh. In some ways, it did. In others, it was complete BS. The learning curve was harder in WaW IMO because you had to know how to take tanks out with two satchels, which limited your ability to use other secondaries. You also had to watch your surroundings for dogs and be able to take them out instead of getting shot at by helicopters that have a one pixel line of sight on you. Most of the guns sucked more in WaW which meant it was harder to actually kill people. Betties were more cheap than Clays, but also easy to counter if you were aware of your surroundings (and they were proneable). MP40/Juggs was pretty damn good, but you could counter it with most of the other SMGs with Double Tap (I think that was my counter; it's been a long time). I believe Time To Kill was faster for you than it was for them if you used what I just said. Maps were also big enough where you had to be careful how you engaged because weapon ranges actually meant something. I will agree that it's probably easier to get to a moderate skill level in WaW since MP40/Juggs was so dominating, but I think to excel a little further took more skill in WaW. That might just be because pretty much everyone relied on crutches that won 95% of gun matchups though. Drop shotting also became popular in WaW, but I'm annoyed that they had a tactical layout which made it insanely easy. I always did it on the classical layout (when I used it).
Great let's get off this ridiculous topic then
Boogalogist
Member
On the topic of Infiltration's counterpick of Hakan against PR Balrog's Boxer, people seem to forget how PR Balrog tried to counterpick with Fei Long against Infiltration's Akuma in the quarter finals...but failed miserably. PR Balrog then went back to Boxer and put Infiltration into the Loser's Bracket.
edit: WTF is going on? FPS vs Fighting game comparison? GTFO pl0x.
edit: WTF is going on? FPS vs Fighting game comparison? GTFO pl0x.
Basically all the things that you mentioned are why the game was horrible. Tanks, betties, dogs, mp40, all that shit was wack. WaW wasn't popular because the game straight up sucked, and when the game came out people went back to cod4 because it was superior in every way.
cod4 also has promod, and cod4 promod takes more skill than every cod that has been released/will be released. It's that simple.
Passive Assassin
Member
Aris: He looks like an actor in a movie!
M_A_C
Member
Aris and Chris G in the same room is comedy gold!
"I wanna see that frown upside down!"
Passive Assassin
Member
Aurora Borealis!
sf2fanatic
Member
:shakes hands with beef with the SF love
KidA Seven
Member
They both take skill. People who aren't good enough to compete at a competitive level for a game shouldn't belittle the skill found in that said game.
riskVSreward
Member
I agree wholeheartedly. If I had to peg one single reason as to why fighters aren't more popular it would be the fact that you have to lose a lot. People hate to lose, and they hate not having an excuse other than "you were better". That's why you hear shit like "fighters are too obtuse" or "I dont have time to train, I have a life" or even "that shit is too cheap" it's all salty scapegoating. People just don't like to admit when someone else is better.
Obviously, we are exceptions, either through sheer love of the genre or being able to shrug off a loss, or both.