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[MagiusNecros]

What else was there for them?

Not much else. You could argue they relied on Eidos but they've been kicking them in the ass too with their "expectations".

And I think we can all remember the SE drought that lead up to XIII's original overhyped release and how the fissure first emerged.(Yes you have the occasional gem like NieR but the point still stands) Expecting greatness and offered mediocrity. At least for some. Maybe others thought it was the greatest thing ever and that's completely fine. You are allowed to like things. Differing opinions spark wonderful discussions.

We can all agree that the Console output(Wii/Xbox/PS3/PC) was abysmal. What did Nintendo get? Crystal Bearers? Dragon Quest X? So abysmal they still have "The Last Remnant" listed for PS3. Which is never happening.

As always and as many have said: Their handheld output has always been fantastic. TWEWY, Kingdom Hearts, Dragon Quest, FF, BDFF, Crisis Core, all these great titles.

And now they diverge into making mobile games for the sake of that short term profit for who knows what.

It just saddens me they can't give consoles the attention and care it deserves as they do for handhelds. But this all goes back to those payrolls in the industry where you get the same check each week no matter how little effort or how much effort you put into something. That creator's soul and effort and drive isn't there anymore. Newer installments start stagnating. The game's of the past that had charm and endearing qualities start to degrade until they are all but soulless.

So soulless that they choose a character in the FF series and treat her with poor writing, crappy character development, go on to use her as a plot moving device, and then proceed to use her as a barbie doll.

 

[Dark Schala]

Being able to take every enemy attack to the face and shrug it off isn't a testament to how field positioning wasn't important, it's evidence to how easy the game was that you have an undercooked game mechanic for movement and can still beat the game with that handicap. I shouldn't have to use SEN/SEN/SEN as a means to reduce the damage an attack does when I could avoid it entirely if the game just let me take 5 steps in any direction. I'm reminded of how when I first beat Ultros & Typhon in XIII-2, the only reason I beat them was because an enemy attack arbitrarily managed to split up Noel and Serah a good distance, making Typhon's Snort only hit Noel when provoked and never hitting Serah or the 3rd creature. All I could wonder is why the game didn't just let me do that in the first place.

Noi, this is why you and I are bro/sis. Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself. Even with the evasive SENs in Lightning and Hope, you still shifted to SEN/SEN/SEN to minimize damage output of AoE attacks as opposed to completely evading it, and that's one of the things that I really didn't appreciate about it.

Shame that we didn't have a Tactics Board or something like it to customize how far apart the allies should stand, which enemies they should attack, whether or not they should use items, etc. Tactics would've went a long way into adequately speedrunning a boss run.

Did they ever say that the new chaining system would work like the old one? Given that there's no obvious percent, I assumed that the pre-stagger damage bonus was just gone and enemies just took much more damage while staggered. Just an assumption, though.

The most egregious mystery damage numbers happen from 8:30-8:40. It might just be buggy or something, though.

Judging by the stuff that goes down at 3:40 and 3:45, it looks almost like you can cancel into a block/evade.

I also just realized how many things are going on at 3:45. He casts Poison, cancels with an outfit shift, hits Thunder to trigger the jump back animation, cancels THAT into an Evade forward. There's definitely a Thunder -> Evade cancel there, so I'm guessing you can cancel into defensive moves! Wahoo!

I also hope the Evade directions are specified with the stick and not some weird automatic thing. They probably are. Rolling ninja combat incoming.

Another thing I noticed: There's a special effect that goes off if you block right before an attack initiates (very noticeable around 3:50). This probably explains the Stagger-initiating Block around 3:35. Giving bonuses for last minute Blocks definitely gives me hope that Square Enix really is going to make this game challenging and deep for those who want it.

Rudimentary stopwatch timing of the attack chain at 4:00 and the one at 8:50 had them at about the same time, to the best of my abilities.

Of course, the second one might be affected by the Overclock that ends a moment before (she definitely attacks much faster during Overclock). In addition, they have different finishers. Even if they are the same speed, different finishing animations should add bonus depth to weapon choice!

Unrelated thing I also noticed: Blocking drains ATB every second. Seems balanced, and rewards last-second blocking.

Sorry for the delay in response. I was... watching speedruns... (and a VGCW episode). >.>

Well, when you generally chain attacks, you usually get higher damage, and that's for any game. I would assume that that would be the same here, unless they have a different chain/stagger system involved. Which they seem to since Lightning blocked an enemy once, and it got staggered instantly. With that said, I kinda want a demo to play around with a bit like I did with XIII-2's demo so I can see where they're going with this. I kinda think this was an older build and some stuff seems odd here and there.

If you can certainly cancel an attack into a guard/evade, I'm up for that. That's something I'd wanted in the previous two games, so if you can do that, that makes for some faster fighting at times. If the game rewards you for extra finesse, and makes it an essential component for Hard Mode, I could probably get it when it comes out. Going by the fact that Evade is a button press, I kinda think it might be automatic. It'd be nice if it weren't, though.

Yeah, I wonder if Overclock affects the speed of it (it certainly affects offensive output), and whether or not it would be beneficial to use it. And Blocking is an allocated attack, so it should be draining ATB.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I own 2 Square developed games on PS3 (FFXIIi and its sequel), which says enough. And they aren't even near the better games of the Ps3 library. They feel like B-games to me, especially XIII-2.

Square has been absolutely fucking terrible on consoles this gen. And their other things were sort of weird as well, such as using lolchartz numbers and demanding sick sales for franchises like TR.

There is still talent but its being limited to handheld, which means they weren't really well prepared for this era. I do have some faith in them as Luminous looked great, they did announce FFXV and KH3 (and lets assume those 2 will be there by 2015) and they really do seem to be hell bent on fixing FFXIV and doing a good job. But this generation has mostly been a lost cause for them.

As for FFXIII, they would've been better off killing it off right after the original game (as I do think FFXIII is hurting the franchise) but I could understand if they are just trying to recuperate some costs from the long dev cycle of FFXIII and the probably less than expected results.

 

[Midou]

Honestly, if someone moved on because of one game that didnt reach said so called super high standards overly influenced by nostalgia, in a series that include dozens of games, he/she was not that big of a fan in the first place. A real fan stays with its beloved franchise/company in its higs and lows. Being supportive all the time is part of the principle of being a faithful fan after all. Thats how I see it, and part of the reason why I despise some (some because not all are like that, some have real reasons to dislike the game, and thats understandable) of the badwagoon haters that dare say they were fans one day. But thats just me.

Eh, don't pretend like it's like dropping out of the franchise because of FF7 or FF5 or something. Those were 1 of 3 FFs in each generation. Between 2006 and 2014(minimum), a single mainline offline FF will have come out. That's an entire generation of disappointment, not to mention a generation twice as long as the previous. 3 FFXIII releases, 2 FFXIV releases, if you aren't a fan of XIII and don't play MMOs, it's the worst possible generation to be an FF fan. If you didn't like X there was XII and vice-versa last-gen, then you had 3 mainline offline FFs per gen before that. Those who hate 8 have 7 and 9 to pick from, or whatever other combination you want.

An entire generation of embarrassment for Square Enix's management makes me think the future of Final Fantasy won't be much better off. I want FFXV to be great but the current state of an entire generation of how SE has been behaving has disappointed me, and I've been playing FFs since FF4 on SNES. It's not just about a 'single FF among dozens'.

 

[Adaren]

NGoing by the fact that Evade is a button press, I kinda think it might be automatic. It'd be nice if it weren't, though.

Ah sorry, I realize what I said was ambiguous! I think (and hope) that we can control both when Lightning evades and which direction she evades in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHR3yHgXRrk&t=4m10s

To be sure, I went back and checked. he chains 6 Evades together there to get across the field (probably just being flashy for the crowd), so it's reasonable that Evade is fully controllable. Good stuff.

Additionally, I noticed that when he Evades the first attack, his ATB goes from 100->85, a special sound effect plays and he goes from 85->100 ATB a second later. (He Evades immediately after, putting him back at 85 again) Assuming no other trickery is going on here, it seems like last second Evades may restore their ATB cost, which would be completely awesome for Hard mode/challenge runs.

I'm getting myself far too excited for this game.

 

[Perfo]

Honestly, if someone moved on because of one game that didnt reach said so called super high standards overly influenced by nostalgia, in a series that include dozens of games, he/she was not that big of a fan in the first place. A real fan stays with its beloved franchise/company in its higs and lows. Being supportive all the time is part of the principle of being a faithful fan after all. Thats how I see it, and part of the reason why I despise some (some because not all are like that, some have real reasons to dislike the game, and thats understandable) of the badwagoon haters that dare say they were fans one day. But thats just me.

That's exactly what I think, just liking FFVII for example and disliking what followed doesn't make you a fan of the series. There's some people that just found in FF7 at that right moment what they were searching for, abandoning the series after that or maybe with another chapter following it. The FF series is so diverse that just attracted different players at different moments of its history. The core fans? You can see them in FFXIII-2. People that bought it, 2/3 millions, are probably the real core-base of this series. So you can expect any big FF at least to sell that amount and eventually to expand it depending on how many more "casuals" (to the series) can attract.

 

[kurbaan]

That's exactly what I think, just liking FFVII for example and disliking what followed doesn't make you a fan of the series. There's some people that just found in FF7 at that right moment what they were searching for, abandoning the series after that or maybe with another chapter following it. The FF series is so diverse that just attracted different players at different moments of its history. The core fans? You can see them in FFXIII-2. People that bought it, 2/3 millions, are probably the real core-base of this series. So you can expect any big FF at least to sell that amount and eventually to expand it depending on how many more "casuals" (to the series) can attract.

Its not just one game though its been what 8 years since FF12? This Gen has really destroyed square and FF. First after years of teasing and waiting we get FF13 one of the worst games in the franchise then it gets followed up by the disaster of FF14, then we get 2 cheap C grade sequels to cash in.

Now a FF13 spinoff is the next mainline game which may or may not be good and is basically a Kingdom Hearts game now. So people have legit reason for giving up on FF. All the previous entries were tent pole games and system sellers. Now its become sequels and just low quality games.

I think you will see that LR will not do that good because i guess people gave 13-2 a chance but they won't be fooled again.

 

[Perfo]

First after years of teasing and waiting we get FF13 one of the worst games in the franchise then it gets followed up by the disaster of FF14, then we get 2 cheap C grade sequels to cash in.
.

This is all debatable. As a FF fan I consider XIII in my top 3 FF ever, so it was not a disaster at all afrom my point of view. It also managed to sell quite alot and it's the FF that sold the most in EU and NA in the history of the franchise if I remember correctly. Now apart from that, yes we got that disaster that XIV was yet in the same gen we're getting ARR, a title that can potentially turn out to be one of the best FF ever created (at least from my BETA experience) and LR, a "spin-off" with more ambition and dedication than many main entries in the series. I say, let's wait and see.

Basically, to put it simple, S-E made two mistakes in this gen, and they're not XIII titles: XIV 1.0 and moving Versus to next-gen. Type-0 lack of localization is a small but significant (for the core base) error too.

That's my point of view.

 

[dramatis]

That's exactly what I think, just liking FFVII for example and disliking what followed doesn't make you a fan of the series. There's some people that just found in FF7 at that right moment what they were searching for, abandoning the series after that or maybe with another chapter following it. The FF series is so diverse that just attracted different players at different moments of its history. The core fans? You can see them in FFXIII-2. People that bought it, 2/3 millions, are probably the real core-base of this series. So you can expect any big FF at least to sell that amount and eventually to expand it depending on how many more "casuals" (to the series) can attract.

This 'elitist' attitude is more destructive to the fanbase than all that you accuse those opposed to FF13 of. You don't have to love every single game to be a fan of the series. It is dangerous to assume the core fans are the 2 million that bought 13-2 worldwide, that your base cannot continue dropping. I can just as easily say that those sales were based on people seeing a hot chick on the cover and picking up the game, and it would be about as accurate as your arbitrary numerical judgement of a 'core fan' being one who purchased 13-2.

More importantly, who are you to judge who is a 'real' fan versus who is an 'FF7' fan? It is both presumptuous and condescending to believe you can judge the measure of another person's love for the series and assume your love is greater and therefore your opinion regarding the development and direction of FF games is superior.

This is all debatable. As a FF fan I consider XIII in my top 3 FF ever, so it was not a disaster at all afrom my point of view. It also managed to sell quite alot and it's the FF that sold the most in EU and NA in the history of the franchise if I remember correctly.

It's like FF7, FF8, FF9, FF10, and FF12 never existed.

 

[edotlee]

I own 2 Square developed games on PS3 (FFXIIi and its sequel), which says enough. And they aren't even near the better games of the Ps3 library. They feel like B-games to me, especially XIII-2.

Square has been absolutely fucking terrible on consoles this gen. And their other things were sort of weird as well, such as using lolchartz numbers and demanding sick sales for franchises like TR.

There is still talent but its being limited to handheld, which means they weren't really well prepared for this era. I do have some faith in them as Luminous looked great, they did announce FFXV and KH3 (and lets assume those 2 will be there by 2015) and they really do seem to be hell bent on fixing FFXIV and doing a good job. But this generation has mostly been a lost cause for them.

As for FFXIII, they would've been better off killing it off right after the original game (as I do think FFXIII is hurting the franchise) but I could understand if they are just trying to recuperate some costs from the long dev cycle of FFXIII and the probably less than expected results.

Agree on FFXIII and XIII-2 feeling like second-tier games, particularly XIII-2. XIII-2... what a disappointment. They kind of improve the battle system, but then only give you two members with a useless pseudo-Pokemon against monsters that couldn't beat themselves out of a wet paper bag. They "open" the game up by letting you choose your own path, but that was just a ruse as it was nearly as linear as FFXIII. Don't get me started on the story and disappearance of summons (although the bastardization of the summons in FFXIII makes me believe it was a good idea they weren't included)... Anyway, end rant.

I really think the next-gen came at a good time for SE. With the FFXIV 1.0 and FFXIII series disasters behind them, it gives them a chance to reboot and start afresh. I just got accepted into the final beta of FFXIV 2.0 and I'm really looking forward to that. My cousin can't stop raving about it. As you can tell by my icon I'm excited for FFXV. I really like the direction it's going (at least from what I've seen from the trailers).

As for Lightning Returns, I feel it'll be a decent effort from what is already a sinking ship. Maybe it's because they took out the FF name, but expectations aren't that high. At least I know what to expect to get out of it: fun gameplay. However, like many here I'm ready for this Lightning saga to pass and out of sight of my rear view window.

 

[Perfo]

It's like FF7, FF8, FF9, FF10, and FF12 never existed.

If I remember correctly it did sold more than those in NA and EU territories, well maybe except for FFX. It's worldwide that sold less than few of those. The country where it dropped the most it's Japan, and for one reason: home consoles are dead. In any case it was really a successfull launch for them. XIV on the other way, was a disaster and Versus development even more.

 

[Exentryk]

And then there was just stupid stuff like "Two Commandos will not target the same enemy", "Two Sentinels will target the same enemy instead of different enemies", "Medics will prioritize Esuna even when it makes no damn sense to (AKA I have a minor status debuff on my Sentinel while said Sentinel is low on health... and the AI won't heal him/her if he/she is past a very specific HP number)", and "Ravagers will alternate between strikes and spells in mid air all the time". And there was literally nothing I could do to change this. I had fun with XIII's battle system, but it didn't exactly have very good AI. Something that wouldn't have been a problem if I had the freedom to dictate their actions on some base level.

Lack of movement is definitely a bad thing, but some of the above mentioned things could be fixed.

1. XIII-2 lets two commandos target the same enemy, or different enemies. Same for Sentinels.
2. Medics are stuffed. Need to heal yourself -.-
3. Ravagers alternating between strikes and spells depends on the ravager's stats, and the enemies' weaknesses. If the ravager has high magic stat, and the enemy is not magic resistant, then the ravager will only cast alternating spells and no strikes. This is easier to manage with XIII-2 monsters, but XIII characters with their fixed stats, no so much.

I am glad that they're providing movement control in LR and in XV, and I hope it carries on in future Final Fantasies.

 

[Jeels]

That's exactly what I think, just liking FFVII for example and disliking what followed doesn't make you a fan of the series. There's some people that just found in FF7 at that right moment what they were searching for, abandoning the series after that or maybe with another chapter following it. The FF series is so diverse that just attracted different players at different moments of its history. The core fans? You can see them in FFXIII-2. People that bought it, 2/3 millions, are probably the real core-base of this series. So you can expect any big FF at least to sell that amount and eventually to expand it depending on how many more "casuals" (to the series) can attract.

There is so much wrong condensed into a few sentences.

 

[DukeTogo1300]

-It is true the Ligtning's Bust size increased from C cup to D cup in LR. Its done by Toriyama.
-There will be costumes that makes your bust size bigger or smaller.

What the hell? This literally feels like some surreal dream.

XIII series retroactively creepy confirmed.

(yeah, I just noticed this topic..)

 

[Midou]

That's exactly what I think, just liking FFVII for example and disliking what followed doesn't make you a fan of the series. There's some people that just found in FF7 at that right moment what they were searching for, abandoning the series after that or maybe with another chapter following it. The FF series is so diverse that just attracted different players at different moments of its history. The core fans? You can see them in FFXIII-2. People that bought it, 2/3 millions, are probably the real core-base of this series. So you can expect any big FF at least to sell that amount and eventually to expand it depending on how many more "casuals" (to the series) can attract.

Is that why XIII-2 sold like garbage in North America? I guarantee XIII would have sold a lot worse if people knew how it was going to turn out.

I've played every single Final Fantasy, so I consider myself a core fan, but 8 years of fuck ups in a row, what used to get us like 5 mainline FFs, got us a single one, that lacked most of what made a Final Fantasy, a Final Fantasy.

You talk about core fans, but what should they have to find in FF13? You say they are all diverse yet they all share more in common prior to 13 than they do with 13. The towns, the shops, the side-quests, they are all in a completely different form in prior FFs. Factually, FF13 has gone against the FF norm more than any previous title. Had there been no chocobos or moogles, one could hardly mistake it for a Final Fantasy. Hell if Last Remnant had chocobos and moogle, it could have been considered more of an FF than 13 was.

The lack of exploration, character customization, towns, shops and everything inbetween that at least every 'diverse' Final Fantasy had in common, is mostly all missing or twisted in XIII (like Chocolina replacing all shops).

I will not say it doesn't deserve the Final Fantasy name, but it's completely wrong to say core FF fans who are used to diverse entries MUST like it if they are true FF fans, when factually it is incredibly different. Even entries in the past that stood out, like the jump from 6 to 7's more modern era or 10 to 12's differences, are minute and still fit in within the FF-verse more than a linear corridor crawler XIII turned out to be. FFs were not meant to be purely about telling a story or trying to develop characters while making gameplay suffer. Early Final Fantasy heads (like Ito, who developed so many of it's core systems) always focused on gameplay first, and that was not the case with FFXIII.

FFXIII is the first FF where gameplay is not the main focus of the director. The battle system is only one part of 'gameplay', and I already argued why I found that poor. Exploration is very much a component of gameplay too, and one sorely lacking in this trilogy. Perhaps LR can expand on exploration, but still it sounds like only one of the four areas is meant to be large and explorable, which would not be much of a difference from XIII, which also had a single large area.

 

[kurbaan]

What the hell? This literally feels like some surreal dream.

XIII series retroactively creepy confirmed.

(yeah, I just noticed this topic..)

oh wow I missed that. WTF is wrong with this Toriyama jackass? Holyshit this isnt Dead or Alive beach volleyball. The fact that they would actually spend time coding this crap shows how delusional and insane this dude is.

Also agree 100% with past above me.

 

[Kagari]

If I remember correctly it did sold more than those in NA and EU territories, well maybe except for FFX. It's worldwide that sold less than few of those. The country where it dropped the most it's Japan, and for one reason: home consoles are dead. In any case it was really a successfull launch for them. XIV on the other way, was a disaster and Versus development even more.

Not even close.

 

[Toth]

oh wow I missed that. WTF is wrong with this Toriyama jackass? Holyshit this isnt Dead or Alive beach volleyball. The fact that they would actually spend time coding this crap shows how delusional and insane this dude is.

Also agree 100% with past above me.

Then you had no problem with FFX-2?

 

[Toth]

It's sad to say when FFXV ever gets released, two common quotes that I guarantee will appear:

If it is a hit: "See SE! This is the type of FF we want!"
If it bombs: "See SE? You damaged your brand with FF13!"

Mark my words, FFXIII will end up being the VIII of its time.

 

[dramatis]

If I remember correctly it did sold more than those in NA and EU territories, well maybe except for FFX. It's worldwide that sold less than few of those. The country where it dropped the most it's Japan, and for one reason: home consoles are dead.

You're saying FF7, a game that sold over 10 million worldwide, sold less in NA/EU than FF13, a game that sold between 5 and 6 million.

Check your numbers. The most likely scenario in which 13 outsold any of the ones I've names in NA/EU is FF12, because 13 sales in Japan are a couple hundred thousand lower than 12, so logically any equality or excess beyond 12 sales will have to be compensated for in the west.

But it's unlikely 13 outsold 12 in the west, and if it did, it's by slim margins. That means 13, across multiple platforms: 1) has been unable to attract new fans, 2) could not attract old fans that purchased 7/8/9/10, and 3) sold those numbers mostly because of brand recognition and not because it was a good game.

The next thing you would like to tell me is that the failure of 14 or that 15 moving to next gen resulted in poor sales for 13-2. But go on, pretend your game did extremely well while simultaneously blaming its mediocre performance on external factors that, while playing a part, are ultimately not the representation of the product and therefore cannot possibly take full blame for 13's middling numbers.

It's sad to say when FFXV ever gets released, two common quotes that I guarantee will appear:

If it is a hit: "See SE! This is the type of FF we want!"
If it bombs: "See SE? You damaged your brand with FF13!"

Mark my words, FFXIII will end up being the VIII of its time.

And what about the in between? Chances are, 15's sales will be damaged by the messes of 13 and 14. Denying that would be covering your eyes and pretending consumers view each Final Fantasy as a new IP. The reason why FF has sustained millions of sales thus far is because of the brand recognition that came from FF7.

 

[Midou]

It's sad to say when FFXV ever gets released, two common quotes that I guarantee will appear:

If it is a hit: "See SE! This is the type of FF we want!"
If it bombs: "See SE? You damaged your brand with FF13!"

Mark my words, FFXIII will end up being the VIII of its time.

It's too late for that, like I said previously, FF8 was followed by 9 within a year, and 10 a year after that. Typically fans can put up with 'bad' entries because more titles follow quickly.

Obviously it's unrealistic to expect a yearly Final Fantasy in this generation(though they kind of did that with the trilogy, unfortunately), but releasing them at a pace of something like the Tales titles of this generation would have been great. If they cut back on the graphics a bit, focused on gameplay, and pushed out even 2 offline mainline FFs within 3-4 years, great. It's too bad the distance between FFXIII and FFXV, will likely be upwards of 6 years(maybe more), which is longer than an entire generation in the past.

If FF8 got 2 sequels and FF9 didn't come out until the PS2, lots more folks woulda been pissed. And once again, FF8 at least maintained most aspects of a Final Fantasy, which XIII is missing, as my recently posted long rant states.

Edit: I really think they would have benefited from not trying to make the best looking game with XIII, I commend their effort, it looks great, but it wasn't worth the effort. I'm sure turning down the graphics and implementing more typical FF features would have gotten them more money and less controversy.

 

[Toth]

It's too late for that, like I said previously, FF8 was followed by 9 within a year, and 10 a year after that. Typically fans can put up with 'bad' entries because more titles follow quickly.

Obviously it's unrealistic to expect a yearly Final Fantasy in this generation, but releasing them at a pace of something like the Tales titles of this generation would have been great. If they cut back on the graphics a bit, focused on gameplay, and pushed out even 2 offline mainline FFs within 3-4 years, great. It's too bad the distance between FFXIII and FFXV, will likely be upwards of 6 years(maybe more), which is longer than an entire generation in the past.

If FF8 got 2 sequels and FF9 didn't come out until the PS2, lots more folks woulda been pissed. And once again, FF8 at least maintained most aspects of a Final Fantasy, which XIII is missing, as my recently posted long rant.

FFXIII retained many aspect of a Final Fantasy. It had the classic summons (actually useful for the first time since 10 and 11), classic abilities and spells, a very thorough in game encyclopedia, classic enemies with new designs, crystals, and limit break type abilities. Despite its faults, FF XIII felt way more like a FF than XII did, despite how great of a game XII was. Cliche or not, saving the world is the point of every FF and 12 felt like too much of a side story to a big picture.

 

[Kagari]

You're saying FF7, a game that sold over 10 million worldwide, sold less in NA/EU than FF13, a game that sold between 5 and 6 million.

Check your numbers. The most likely scenario in which 13 outsold any of the ones I've names in NA/EU is FF12, because 13 sales in Japan are a couple hundred thousand lower than 12, so logically any equality or excess beyond 12 sales will have to be compensated for in the west.

But it's unlikely 13 outsold 12 in the west, and if it did, it's by slim margins. That means 13, across multiple platforms: 1) has been unable to attract new fans, 2) could not attract old fans that purchased 7/8/9/10, and 3) sold those numbers mostly because of brand recognition and not because it was a good game.

The next thing you would like to tell me is that the failure of 14 or that 15 moving to next gen resulted in poor sales for 13-2. But go on, pretend your game did extremely well while simultaneously blaming its mediocre performance on external factors that, while playing a part, are ultimately not the representation of the product and therefore cannot possibly take full blame for 13's middling numbers.


And what about the in between? Chances are, 15's sales will be damaged by the messes of 13 and 14. Denying that would be covering your eyes and pretending consumers view each Final Fantasy as a new IP. The reason why FF has sustained millions of sales thus far is because of the brand recognition that came from FF7.

Re: 12. It sold better than 13 in America and on par with 13 in Europe.

 

[dramatis]

FFXIII retained many aspect of a Final Fantasy. It had the classic summons (actually useful for the first time since 10 and 11), classic abilities and spells, a very thorough in game encyclopedia, classic enemies with new designs, crystals, and limit break type abilities. Despite its faults, FF XIII felt way more like a FF than XII did, despite how great of a game XII was. Cliche or not, saving the world is the point of every FF and 12 felt like too much of a side story to a big picture.

The so-called "feeling of an FF" is an excuse cooked up by the overzealous to justify why X FF is better than Y FF.

Second, if "saving the world is the point of every FF", isn't it time to have some change? Saving the world is fucking boring. It's even worse when you are never given any motivation to want to save the world, especially with Cocoon and its inhabitants portrayed the way they are in 13. If Lightning had followed through with her hatred instead of her 180 "I was kept like a pet", tearing Cocoon asunder with her abilities, that would have been 500% more interesting than running...running...running to tour Pulse...Vanille emo plot and THE MAKER THIS, THE MAKER THAT.

However, I understand if you prefer having the game cater to you, tell you you're the best, you're the chosen one, you're more important than anybody else, you're going to be the ones who save the world, you're the ones who are right despite being cowards and monsters.

 

[Toth]

The so-called "feeling of an FF" is an excuse cooked up by the overzealous to justify why X FF is better than Y FF.

Second, if "saving the world is the point of every FF", isn't it time to have some change? Saving the world is fucking boring. It's even worse when you are never given any motivation to want to save the world, especially with Cocoon and its inhabitants portrayed the way they are in 13. If Lightning had followed through with her hatred instead of her 180 "I was kept like a pet", tearing Cocoon asunder with her abilities, that would have been 500% more interesting than running...running...running to tour Pulse...Vanille emo plot and THE MAKER THIS, THE MAKER THAT.

However, I understand if you prefer having the game cater to you, tell you you're the best, you're the chosen one, you're more important than anybody else, you're going to be the ones who save the world, you're the ones who are right despite being cowards and monsters.

I was just replying to Miduo's comment dramatis. I am also referring to the main storyline of pretty much every FF: saving the world and/or crystals. DQ has the same idea too: saving the world from the next major Demonlord. It's just what you expect from a JRPG nowadays.

 

[edotlee]

It's too late for that, like I said previously, FF8 was followed by 9 within a year, and 10 a year after that. Typically fans can put up with 'bad' entries because more titles follow quickly.

Obviously it's unrealistic to expect a yearly Final Fantasy in this generation(though they kind of did that with the trilogy, unfortunately), but releasing them at a pace of something like the Tales titles of this generation would have been great. If they cut back on the graphics a bit, focused on gameplay, and pushed out even 2 offline mainline FFs within 3-4 years, great. It's too bad the distance between FFXIII and FFXV, will likely be upwards of 6 years(maybe more), which is longer than an entire generation in the past.

If FF8 got 2 sequels and FF9 didn't come out until the PS2, lots more folks woulda been pissed. And once again, FF8 at least maintained most aspects of a Final Fantasy, which XIII is missing, as my recently posted long rant states.

Edit: I really think they would have benefited from not trying to make the best looking game with XIII, I commend their effort, it looks great, but it wasn't worth the effort. I'm sure turning down the graphics and implementing more typical FF features would have gotten them more money and less controversy.

Pretty much. VIII never got the vitriol that the XIII series is receiving mainly because there wasn't enough time for the frustration to build up. If XV had showed up before XIII-2, there is probably no way you would see this level of negativity and pessimism. However, SE dug their own graves with the Crystal Tools engine. It was a big reason for causing two mainline (XIII and XIV) FFs to tank. At least the Luminous Engine looks promising.

 

[Perfo]

The next thing you would like to tell me is that the failure of 14 or that 15 moving to next gen resulted in poor sales for 13-2. .

When did I say that or even implied it? FFXIII-2 sold great, helped S-E making profits together with Deus Ex (probably the last two home consoles that did this for them 'till now) and spoiler an incoming third entry in the same series. Not a failure as someone imply it to be.

What I was saying is that IF the brand has been indeed damaged it's not because of XIII but more because of XIV ending up being a real disaster and Versus skipping entirely this gen - alienating all those people that didn't like XIII and were naturally waiting for something different. XIII-2 and LR just filled the slots left by these two giants; they're spin offs as any crisis core or dissidia to date, just running on home consoles. The people that bought and will buy them are essentially the true core-fanbase that buys everything, while the mass of players are here waiting for something obviously different and new. Except that different and new bombed (XIV) and skipped (Versus). Thus the "maybe" damaged brand.

Really, stop saying Toriyama is responsibile for everything because it's not true.

 

[Toth]

Pretty much. VIII never got the vitriol that the XIII series is receiving mainly because there wasn't enough time for the frustration to build up. If XV had showed up before XIII-2, there is probably no way you would see this level of negativity and pessimism. However, SE dug their own graves with the Crystal Tools engine. It was a big reason for causing two mainline (XIII and XIV) FFs to tank. At least the Luminous Engine looks promising.

Well, the internet was nearly as big when VIII came out as well to be completely fair. There were so few magazines back then too compared to the multiple ones online we have today. I love FFVIII to death and maybe that is why I see so many parallels to that when it comes to FFXIII. I just wish people would remember how different FFIX was to VIII before whining about the future of the series. We had MP back in IX after all!

 

[Kagari]

When did I say that or even implied it? FFXIII-2 sold great, helped S-E making profits together with Deus Ex (probably the last two home consoles that did this for them 'till now) and spoiler an incoming third entry in the same series. Not a failure as someone imply it to be.

What I was saying is that IF the brand has been indeed damaged it's not because of XIII but more because of XIV ending up being a real disaster and Versus skipping entirely this gen - alienating all those people that didn't like XIII and were naturally waiting for something different. XIII-2 and LR just filled the slots left by these two giants; they're spin offs as any crisis core or dissidia to date, just running on home consoles. The people that bought and will buy them are essentially the true core-fanbase that buys everything, while the mass of players are here waiting for something obviously different and new. Except that different and new bombed (XIV) and skipped (Versus). Thus the "maybe" damaged brand.

Really, stop saying Toriyama is responsibile for everything because it's not true.

Really, stop saying Versus is responsible because the larger audience didn't even know that game existed and development woes did little if any damage to the brand.

 

[heiyu]

That that back. I'm not lanky.

Dono and tono roughly mean "lord" or "master". This title is no longer used in daily conversation, though it is still used in some types of written business correspondence. It is also seen on certificates and awards, and in written correspondence in tea ceremonies. The word dono originally meant the residence of the aristocracy. It's often translated as "Lord" or "Lady" in English subtitles, though noble status is not necessarily implied; it is more akin to general terms such as "milord" or French "monseigneur". Dono is similar to sama, but the latter is less formal and often carries undertones of personal affection.

 

[BocoDragon]

Mark my words, FFXIII will end up being the VIII of its time.

VIII was not hated nearly as much as XIII. It was a divisive entry, and some people walked away not liking it, but it was generally well received. Many adored it. I'd compare VIII more to the reception for XII.

XIII was instantly and widely regarded as a "different" entry, and the question for any fan was "will I somehow like it anyway?" The stigma it had was far more pronounced than any other entry in the series (II aside?)

Well, the internet was nearly as big when VIII came out as well to be completely fair. There were so few magazines back then too compared to the multiple ones online we have today. I love FFVIII to death and maybe that is why I see so many parallels to that when it comes to FFXIII. I just wish people would remember how different FFIX was to VIII before whining about the future of the series. We had MP back in IX after all!

There were a billion fan sites (far more than today) and a lot of big sites like IGN, Gamespot and The GIA.

There was a huge wealth of online discussion about VIII, and most of it was hardly negative.

 

[Ninjimbo]

FFXII must have done some damage too. I know some people love that game (me included), but I remember fighting off a lot of diehards when that game was released. There was a lot of vitriol launched at it. Nothing compared to FFXIII of course. It was super bad though.

FFXII being so different put some heavy hopes on XIII that, given the circumstances of development, the game didn't stand a chance.

Man, we haven't had a truly great FF in over a decade. That's sad.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

It's sad to say when FFXV ever gets released, two common quotes that I guarantee will appear:

If it is a hit: "See SE! This is the type of FF we want!"
If it bombs: "See SE? You damaged your brand with FF13!"

Mark my words, FFXIII will end up being the VIII of its time.

Hey now, FFXIII is nowhere near the best of the series.

 

[heiyu]

Hey now, FFXIII is nowhere near the best of the series.

It's called opinion

In this thread we have already seen people to revere FFXII and FFX-2 and that imo were the worst ones i've played. Doesn't mean they were bad... well i still say FFX-2 was pretty bad. But that is only my opinion. I also stick with "FFXIII" was one of my favorites (just maybe not 3rd best) and that doesn't mean that you keep bashing on it for 5 pages is going to make me change my opinion or prove that one game is better then the other since opinion isn't something right or wrong.

 

[Supermanisdead]

Midou, no offense, but you have been frothing at the mouth over this series for so long now. Relax and understand you can't stop the game from coming out. Think about your blood pressure.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

It's called opinion

In this thread we have already seen people to revere FFXII and FFX-2 and that imo were the worst ones i've played. Doesn't mean they were bad... well i still say FFX-2 was pretty bad. But that is only my opinion. I also stick with "FFXIII" was one of my favorites (just maybe not 3rd best) and that doesn't mean that you keep bashing on it for 5 pages is going to make me change my opinion or prove that one game is better then the other since opinion isn't something right or wrong.

that was the joke

 

[Toth]

VIII was not hated nearly as much as XIII. It was a divisive entry, and some people walked away not liking it, but it was generally well received. Many adored it. I'd compare VIII more to the reception for XII.

XIII was instantly and widely regarded as a "different" entry, and the question for any fan was "will I somehow like it anyway?" The stigma it had was far more pronounced than any other entry in the series (II aside?)


There were a billion fan sites (far more than today) and a lot of big sites like IGN, Gamespot and The GIA.

There was a huge wealth of online discussion about VIII, and most of it was hardly negative.

Really? I always see a lot of FFVIII hate here...I really hope maybe I am exaggerating it.

Boco, it is weird but FFXIII and FFVIII generally received the same scores in most magazines. Looking at metacritic, FFVIII has about a 90 rating from 42 critics. FFXIII has around a 83 but from 83 critics, which is nearly double the amoutn of professional reviews from that time. Something tells me that unfortunately if FF VIII was released today, with more reviewers, the scores would be even lower and more around the reviews of XIII.

 

[BocoDragon]

Really? I always see a lot of FFVIII hate here...I really hope maybe I am exaggerating it.

Boco, it is weird but FFXIII and FFVIII generally received the same scores in most magazines. Looking at metacritic, FFVIII has about a 90 rating from 42 critics. FFXIII has around a 83 but from 83 critics, which is nearly double the amoutn of professional reviews from that time. Something tells me that unfortunately if FF VIII was released today, with more reviewers, the scores would be even lower and more around the reviews of XIII.

I disagree. In VIII's time and place, many reviews heralded it as a masterpiece. Maybe some backlash later.

Every XIII review, by contrast, had a tone of trepidation. And many caveats about linearity, lengthy tutorial, no towns, etc. No one was calling this game an unqualified masterpiece (except Perfo lol).

I do think XIII has been the series' darkest hour, in terms of critical reception.

 

[Riposte]

The best Final Fantasy game is still an average game at best with nice visuals and music to me. So, I'm not really shocked what someone decides to put on top of their list wars. To FFXIII's credit it at least tries to solve some of the series problems (particularly the extreme mess of MMO tropes FFXII was made of) by sort of riffing off an action game's pacing and progression, but did so in an alienating fashion. Unfortunately, FFXIII-2 threw out all progression in the hopes of being less alienating. The moment they said they were taking out level caps, I knew that game was going to be stillborn. I'm still not even sure what Lightning Returns is trying to do at this point, it could go either way.

 

[PshycoNinja]

When did I say that or even implied it? FFXIII-2 sold great, helped S-E making profits together with Deus Ex (probably the last two home consoles that did this for them 'till now) and spoiler an incoming third entry in the same series. Not a failure as someone imply it to be.

What I was saying is that IF the brand has been indeed damaged it's not because of XIII but more because of XIV ending up being a real disaster and Versus skipping entirely this gen - alienating all those people that didn't like XIII and were naturally waiting for something different. XIII-2 and LR just filled the slots left by these two giants; they're spin offs as any crisis core or dissidia to date, just running on home consoles. The people that bought and will buy them are essentially the true core-fanbase that buys everything, while the mass of players are here waiting for something obviously different and new. Except that different and new bombed (XIV) and skipped (Versus). Thus the "maybe" damaged brand.

Really, stop saying Toriyama is responsibile for everything because it's not true.

Oh please. Stop blaming Versus. Only hardcore, internet forum posters really knew about the game. The general FF fanbase only heard about the game in passing. Bad games damage brands not games that don't release.

Had it stayed Versus XIII it would've definitely suffered XIII's wrath and sold like molasses.

Also the reason XV was delayed for so long was because of XIII and XIV. We had this discussion already. So if you consider Versus "brand damaging" then you must blame XIII for it.

 

[Pooya]

I'm going to predict Dark Souls 2 will outsell this game, at least outside of Japan for sure. Even in Japan will be really close. Going by how first one sold, it's not as far fetched as you might think

 

[Exentryk]

SE added some wallpapers on their official site. Hope's looks new.

 

[MCD]

>Kid Hope

Fuck you Square. Fuck you.

 

[Chev]

Actually, it's more likely that what they did was create a "Universal Man" (in this case, a "Universal Lightning") where it's just the base model with limbs and body proportions. As each costume design is finalized, the modeler will just start with the universal man and adjust proportions from there.

Which really means they actually increased/decreased her boob size depending on what they felt X costume design should be catering to.

Nah, for costumes that are references to other games you can bet they just pasted her head on another model. They were already doing that in the FFCC darklord days. But hey, sure, it's a feature, not laziness.

 

[akaoni]

I'm going to say it before someone uses it for more ammo, but those wallpapers look amateur as fuck. Just wow.

 

[Law Abiding Stranger]

SE added some wallpapers on their official site. Hope's looks new.

Snow looks like straight from Kingdom Hearts.

 

[kurbaan]

Then you had no problem with FFX-2?

I did at first when the showed the characters and sexed up Yuna. But that game redeemed itself because the moment you put in the disc and heard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRpkI1K_lHA you knew you were playing a FF game. And although it wasn't as good as FFX, X-2 was still a good game and it didn't have all this boob jiggle physics bullshit. It also helped that it was a sequel to one of the best FF games.

Really? I always see a lot of FFVIII hate here...I really hope maybe I am exaggerating it.

Boco, it is weird but FFXIII and FFVIII generally received the same scores in most magazines. Looking at metacritic, FFVIII has about a 90 rating from 42 critics. FFXIII has around a 83 but from 83 critics, which is nearly double the amoutn of professional reviews from that time. Something tells me that unfortunately if FF VIII was released today, with more reviewers, the scores would be even lower and more around the reviews of XIII.

FF8 got amazing reviews and people were very positive when it came out. Its one of my favourite FF games and I only really saw backlash about it years later online but I remember at the time people generally liked it. FF13 on the other hand was already mixed when it came out and its just been festering for the past few years.

I think the biggest mistake SE did was following not following up FFX with a traditional FF game. FFXI was an MMO and most fans didnt play it when, FFXII came out it was a game that was an offline MMO very different from previous games with story and characters (barring a few) that were kinda forgettable. And then after teasing us and making people wait for so long they release 13 which initially looked like it would bring back the glory days of FF it was just bad on all accounts.

I fear if FF15 turns out to be Final Fantasy 15: Kingdom Hearts then I think there will be massive backlash. I dont really understand the need to get rid of a turn-based or active turnbased battle system like most previous FFs. You can make it very fluid and quick. Been playing Persona 4 Golden recently and that game has a great turn based battle system reminds me of FFX's a bit.

 

[SkylineRKR]

You're saying FF7, a game that sold over 10 million worldwide, sold less in NA/EU than FF13, a game that sold between 5 and 6 million.

Check your numbers. The most likely scenario in which 13 outsold any of the ones I've names in NA/EU is FF12, because 13 sales in Japan are a couple hundred thousand lower than 12, so logically any equality or excess beyond 12 sales will have to be compensated for in the west.

But it's unlikely 13 outsold 12 in the west, and if it did, it's by slim margins. That means 13, across multiple platforms: 1) has been unable to attract new fans, 2) could not attract old fans that purchased 7/8/9/10, and 3) sold those numbers mostly because of brand recognition and not because it was a good game.

The next thing you would like to tell me is that the failure of 14 or that 15 moving to next gen resulted in poor sales for 13-2. But go on, pretend your game did extremely well while simultaneously blaming its mediocre performance on external factors that, while playing a part, are ultimately not the representation of the product and therefore cannot possibly take full blame for 13's middling numbers.


And what about the in between? Chances are, 15's sales will be damaged by the messes of 13 and 14. Denying that would be covering your eyes and pretending consumers view each Final Fantasy as a new IP. The reason why FF has sustained millions of sales thus far is because of the brand recognition that came from FF7.

I was under the impression that FFXIII sold like shit. I believe Square stuffed some 8 million copies but I remember walking into the shop, like 6 weeks after the release, and its price was being slashed by 50%. I've never seen an FF being slashed so fast.

FFXIII also came out during the prime of this gen, FFXII came out when the Ps2 was nearing its end (commercially anyway), in Europe it wasn't even there until Spring 2007.

 

[Perfo]

Really, stop saying Versus is responsible because the larger audience didn't even know that game existed and development woes did little if any damage to the brand.

You don't get what I'm trying to say perhaps, because you necessary agree with me. Delaying Versus = having an entire generation made only of XIII. If Versus was out, we would be moved onward and talking about this new grand FF instead of talking still of XIII spinoffs.

Got it?

Versus was meant to be the next main entry in the franchise, yet by being delayed we got stuck with XIII series, and like many other said, if you didn't like it you would not be playing anything else outside of that. That's the paradox, it's not XIII damaging the series but it's a lack of a proper next entry doing so. Plenty of the spinoffs we got in the past never really damaged the brand because you knew all you have to do was waiting for the next big entry, but this generation it didn't happen: or you like XIII (like me) or you skip 6 years of games.

IT:

is this a sort of Dragoon armor? The weapon is very similar to its traditional equipment for it

edit.

also, interview about the soundtrack:

http://www.pixelitis.net/features/orchestrating-lightning-an-interview-with-shota-nakama

I was under the impression that FFXIII sold like shit. I believe Square stuffed some 8 million copies but I remember walking into the shop, like 6 weeks after the release, and its price was being slashed by 50%. I've never seen an FF being slashed so fast.

FFXIII also came out during the prime of this gen, FFXII came out when the Ps2 was nearing its end (commercially anyway), in Europe it wasn't even there until Spring 2007.

Price slashes in a generation with so much retailers competition should not be taken into account, I personally don't know a single retail title that after 2 weeks doesn't drop at least 30% of its price, from massive hits to super bombs. The only way to find out if a title it's successful is to check the fiscal years report from the company: XIII and DQ9 helped S-E having the best year of their life in terms of profits. Years later Deus Ex and XIII-2 achieved making positive results for that same year. That's all you need to know.

On the other way... XIV and other projects long in development almost killed S-E a second time, this plus underperformance of Hitman, Sleeping Dogs & Co. If anything, the "XIII series" is helping the company staying relevant together with the DQ franchise.

 

[Midou]

FFXIII retained many aspect of a Final Fantasy. It had the classic summons (actually useful for the first time since 10 and 11), classic abilities and spells, a very thorough in game encyclopedia, classic enemies with new designs, crystals, and limit break type abilities. Despite its faults, FF XIII felt way more like a FF than XII did, despite how great of a game XII was. Cliche or not, saving the world is the point of every FF and 12 felt like too much of a side story to a big picture.

I guess it depends on how you define Final Fantasy but since FF1 and to varying degrees since, I always found customization to be a big part of Final Fantasy. From FF7's materia system and equipment slot system that worked hand in hand to FF8's Junction system, as silly as it may have been to FF12's licence board and gambit system. (even job systems like FF1 and FF5 had a decent amount of party setup control).

In FFXIII, if you were to level up classes of characters the same way as in Valkyria Chronicles (i.e you just have a class level and you pour exp into ranking it up) and you automatically learned skills as the job level increased, it would have been just as deep as it is now. The job leveling is terribly linear. The equipment system has little purpose and it's quite limited too. Even the 'classic abilities and spells' feel somewhat bastardized ans less impactful in the way the battle system incorporates them.

To me, Final Fantasy was about being a JRPG franchise with the components that make JRPGs great, with the themes and concepts unique to Final Fantasy being in there too (moogles, chocobos, summons, etc). Components like the customization I mentioned above, as well as things like exploration. Even the FFs that did not contain airships and world maps, and especially FF12, had quite a bit of places to go and explore. FFs were always really well paced at this.

To me, FFXIII is taking the 'themes and concepts' unique to FF and injecting them into an 'RPG Lite'. FFXIII is closer to Mass Effect in terms of RPG elements than previous Final Fantasy games.

Midou, no offense, but you have been frothing at the mouth over this series for so long now. Relax and understand you can't stop the game from coming out. Think about your blood pressure.

Without Yin and Yang there is no balance in the world. You would be surprised how quickly and calmly I can write up a huge rant. :3

I don't need to stop the game from coming out, I just hate disingenuous comparisons and arguments.

Really I just love to debate the issue, it's close to my heart. I've never gone into a FFXIII thread and been like 'lol more FFXIII garbage' or 'yep, still looks like shit'. I consider myself above that at least. I only take a little offence because this post came up in this thread, there have been really ridiculous discussions about the game in the past, but in this thread we're finally discussing actual mechanics and discussing the series as a whole, I feel these discussions have evolved a certain amount, only a few folks are stuck on repeat.