JustRiffled
Banned
All signs of the incomptence of Square Enix. Other developers were able to develop titles in the same timeframe as they were in the PS2 era.
Wired: Final Fantasy Isnt Dying. Its Already Dead
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
All signs of the incomptence of Square Enix. Other developers were able to develop titles in the same timeframe as they were in the PS2 era.
Dead huh...
I had a blast playing FFX|V AAR just this month and people are still waiting for Type-0 world wide release.
Yet, the last time I read a magazine about electronics was back in 2004. Perhaps Wired is the one dead? I never see anyone reading them out in the wild unless it's at Barnes & Nobles (which is just as endangered).
I had a blast playing FFX|V AAR just this month and people are still waiting for Type-0 world wide release.
Yet, the last time I read a magazine about electronics was back in 2004. Perhaps Wired is the one dead? I never see anyone reading them out in the wild unless it's at Barnes & Nobles (which is just as endangered).
I pretty much agree with this. Loved the 16 bit games and VII, didn't get on with VIII, came back for IX, which is probably my favourite.
Disliked X and X-2, loved XII.
XIII is one of the worst excuses for an rpg I've played, all that extra power with HD to realise another huge world after XII, what a waste. I skipped the sequel and the MMOs, but looking forward to the next one, and some of the handheld spin-offs like Crisis Core and Theatrhythm are pretty good. Others are terrible.
However, the games aren't just going to be stand-alone any more, asset creation is too expensive, so the best we can hope for is that the next set of characters aren't as cretinous as Ms. Grumpy and co. Ultimately FF has gone from being a flagship single IP to being an umbrella brand for various linked JRPG projects that explore the same themes. I'm alright with that, better that way in that it draws a line under a particular world after five years or so than just endless XIII sequels and spin-offs.
FF in the sense of its 90s/early 00s identity is pretty much dead, but then how many popular franchises that aren't on Nintendo consoles have been running that long and are still prolific today? Virtually all of them have become umbrella brands that also have mobile/FTP/DLC/handheld/community projects of varying quality these days, that's the modern industry, not just FF. At least FF, with each major instalment, bins virtually all of the lore and characters of the previous games, something that I wish more game series did to make easier jumping on points three games later.
If it is, it's a highly flawed, half baked one that had a nightmare dev cycle
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Another problem is that every western company have their next gen engine ready while SE is still developing Luminous.
FF XV is not only significantly behind in development after 7 fucking years, at some point will have to transfer the engine and hoping it dosn't become a mess.
Is like they learned nothing.
Deified Data
Banned
It's a dark place where we weep over the short-sightedness of our past selves.
badcrumble
Member
Okay.
12 was excellent despite its undeniable flaws (my opinion - and seriously, if you're going to respond to my post, respond to literally any part of it other than the one about which FF I happened to like), but it's still the beginning of the end for Square-Enix in the sense that it was full of absolutely disastrous production issues and mismanagement which continued through FFXIII, FFXIV, and FFXV.
Most of the commentary around this article centers around "this FF was the last great one and this other one really sux" which isn't exactly useful analysis.
It's pretty clear that what happened was that the number of staff required to produce an FF game has ballooned drastically over the years (even though they were already pretty enormous productions on the SNES), but the management structure and the production structure haven't changed to keep up. That's why XII, XIII, XIV, and XV have all experienced such massive production delays.
The spinoff problem (FFX-2, though it's a decent game; the assorted Compilation of FFVII stuff; FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns), although it tends to be what draws the most ire from fans, isn't the core issue with Square-Enix so much as it's a direct result of the fact that they need something cheaply produced to bring in money between the larger tentpole releases, and reusing game assets is an easy way to do that (and helps keep an increasingly risk-averse company closer to making nearly every game it produces a part of an existing successful series rather than an original IP). The need for cheaply developed sources of additional revenue has also had positive effects, though, like high-quality handheld-gaming output on the DS, PSP, and 3DS.
Japanese developers in general have this weird thing where they attempt to chase Western aesthetics and modes of gameplay instead of what they should be doing, which is chasing Western modes of management and organization that make it easier to make high-quality games at a faster speed (largely due to giving employees more autonomy instead of micromanaging the process). It's pretty much had the worst results imaginable.
12 was excellent despite its undeniable flaws (my opinion - and seriously, if you're going to respond to my post, respond to literally any part of it other than the one about which FF I happened to like), but it's still the beginning of the end for Square-Enix in the sense that it was full of absolutely disastrous production issues and mismanagement which continued through FFXIII, FFXIV, and FFXV.
Most of the commentary around this article centers around "this FF was the last great one and this other one really sux" which isn't exactly useful analysis.
It's pretty clear that what happened was that the number of staff required to produce an FF game has ballooned drastically over the years (even though they were already pretty enormous productions on the SNES), but the management structure and the production structure haven't changed to keep up. That's why XII, XIII, XIV, and XV have all experienced such massive production delays.
The spinoff problem (FFX-2, though it's a decent game; the assorted Compilation of FFVII stuff; FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns), although it tends to be what draws the most ire from fans, isn't the core issue with Square-Enix so much as it's a direct result of the fact that they need something cheaply produced to bring in money between the larger tentpole releases, and reusing game assets is an easy way to do that (and helps keep an increasingly risk-averse company closer to making nearly every game it produces a part of an existing successful series rather than an original IP). The need for cheaply developed sources of additional revenue has also had positive effects, though, like high-quality handheld-gaming output on the DS, PSP, and 3DS.
Japanese developers in general have this weird thing where they attempt to chase Western aesthetics and modes of gameplay instead of what they should be doing, which is chasing Western modes of management and organization that make it easier to make high-quality games at a faster speed (largely due to giving employees more autonomy instead of micromanaging the process). It's pretty much had the worst results imaginable.
I think it either was dead and has since resuscitated, or was buried alive. Either way, the series isn't quite dead, just severely grievously injured. From what I understand XIV.2 has been much better, and while I am cautiously optimistic about XV, quite a few people seem willing to reopen that seven year old hype and go with it.
I have a lot of complaints with Square Enix's practices and the way it is treating its IPs in general, but I don't think that just trashing and declaring things dead is a good journalistic point in this era, and sorta just generates confusion rather than facilitating discussion regarding the future of the franchise.
That said if Toriyama doesn't take his slimy hands off this series in the near future it will certainly be dead to me.
I have a lot of complaints with Square Enix's practices and the way it is treating its IPs in general, but I don't think that just trashing and declaring things dead is a good journalistic point in this era, and sorta just generates confusion rather than facilitating discussion regarding the future of the franchise.
That said if Toriyama doesn't take his slimy hands off this series in the near future it will certainly be dead to me.
Why only take one side of the coin? Why not take into consideration that they failed initially with XIV and decided to pool so much resources into remaking it that it broke the company in more ways than one, the success of XI which is a dying game, and the impressive CG of FFXV.
Dr.Thunder
Member
Ugh, nobody wins in discussions like these. Just people insulting what other people like constantly. No matter what stance I take if feels wrong. The only FF I have ever disliked is 13. I like 13-2 and Lightning Returns looks interesting to me. I have not played the online ones so I can't really comment on those but I would hardly cal a franchise dead....ever for any reason. Developed can change and so can the mentalities of the currently developers no matter how unlikely it may seem. They are human just like us.
It just seems extremely asinine to ever call a franchise dead based on a few games. Especially for a franchise that's so long and so rich in history. Every game has the potential to be completely different from the last.
It just seems extremely asinine to ever call a franchise dead based on a few games. Especially for a franchise that's so long and so rich in history. Every game has the potential to be completely different from the last.
SoraanTribal
Member
If that 3~minute gameplay footage they released after the trailer was CG, they need to fire all their staff because there were tons of jaggies, some slowdown, and weird hair/wind physics shown during it, lol. I think that gameplay footage was real, but a lot of the stuff in the reveal trailer might not have been. *shrug*
That said, it amuses me people think Final Fantasy is dead. I guess we will see when FFXV is finally released.
That said, it amuses me people think Final Fantasy is dead. I guess we will see when FFXV is finally released.
MikeE21286
Member
Kohler?
Kohler.
Kohler.
History is repeating itself in a lot of ways. They're developing Luminous along side XV which is what they did with Crystal Tools and FFXIII...
On the non-FF side of things, they announced another big title way too early in the form of KH3. I won't be surprised if that game is the next Versus XIII.
The problem with X-2 was the timing. Coming off the heels of X and reusing so many assets/characters/enemies just felt like a collossal waste of time. 60-100 hours of repetitive gameplay to find out what happened to Tidus.
Might have been a different story if they released a totally different FF instead and then released X-2.
It was the last FF I played. I felt burned and they never made another title that enticed me to come back.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
It seems to me "boobs" are getting the sole attentions of haters. Fans of Lightning, XIII or boobs in general just don't give a fuck... lol.
no i actually agree with you.
im sorry for making the assumption you were talking about FF13 since the person replying to you was mentioning it.I also agree that FF13-2 was easy mode after playing FF13.
DarkLordMalik
Member
Yeh, the initial close-up shoot of the group looked bad in the gameplay trailer. But they still have time to replace them with the target render models.
R_thanatos
Member
I honnestly don't how you handled all those caius fights in ff13-2 without changing paradigms nor any of the paradox fights across the main story.
Just saying.
So what you're telling me is that they're going to announce FFXVI which uses the luminous engine but in reality is not suited to be used for an MMO which will inadvertently bomb forcing SE to remake FFXVI? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
The game did not encourage paradigm shifts for what I consider to be more than 90% of the game. This is a serious flaw.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
They couldn't come to E3 with just a target render though... but I do agree. Luckily there's ARR and LR incoming, proof enough they still make playable games and not just promises.
See, this thread (and pretty much every general FF thread we see) is just proving the point: FF has been around for so long that you can't please everybody. We have people saying the series has gone downhill since X, since X-2, since XII, since XIII, since VIII, since <insert number here>.
It's awesome that so many people still care about the franchise. I think it really proves the opposite of the article, in fact. FF is alive and well, but many of the fans it picked up along the way aren't happy with the path it chose.
Series that are actually dead will never have an "X is dead" article written about them, because nobody would give a shit.
It's awesome that so many people still care about the franchise. I think it really proves the opposite of the article, in fact. FF is alive and well, but many of the fans it picked up along the way aren't happy with the path it chose.
Series that are actually dead will never have an "X is dead" article written about them, because nobody would give a shit.
Well tbf X-2 isn't that bad if you can get past the girly settings and embarrassment of playing it.
Except they pretty much did!
Green Mamba
Member
Releasing FFXV and having it be good wouldn't mean SE has actually turned a corner. One thing SE absolutely needs to rid themselves of are mainline FF's absolutely nightmarishly long hells of development cycle, which FFXV is all too emblematic of.
FFXII, for its terrible development cycle, ended up pretty good. That didn't mean the franchise wasn't due for the hell it currently sits in.
SE needs to show they can produce a good mainline FF in a reasonable amount of time and keep up that pace. FFXV's release proves nothing in that regard.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
lol
You're saying three of the most popular games in the franchise are what killed the series when these three are what made the FF brand so popular. You can't see how ridiculous that sounds? Not only that but there's nothing wrong with VII and VIII taking a more realistic approach to their characters. Yes, VIII is a teenage cast but that's ONE game. IX, X and XII had a variation of ages with only the leads being teenagers. In fact, XIII wasn't even full of teenagers, it had adults and they still acted terrible.
Just because XIII(one trilogy, not multiple different games) took certain negatives from past FF's does not mean they should be blamed. I don't even really see a problem with melodrama as long as it's written well, obviously with XIII it wasn't but I don't think it was bad in previous FF's.
ihearthawthats
Banned
people hate v, people hate viii, people hate ix, people hate xii, people hate xiii. the fact that ff's are so different from one another is what makes them great to me. it just sounds like people want the next ff to be like [insert fave ff here]. and if that happens to be x-2, or xiii-2, then you have bad taste or something.
Law Abiding Stranger
Banned
Except the problem wasn't that they couldn't develop playable games. Their problem is horrible management and games that aren't good.
Square has been developing that target render for 8 years.
Yep. Their failures did not make them work harder and be more creative, it just made them stoop to the lowest common denominator across the board with quick profit tactics that end up biting them in the ass.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
As much positive buzz ARR is getting is still totally ignored by western media. And while XI was some of the biggest subscription based MMO have been shadowed by F2P/B2P MMO for several years, something logical since XI is very old, but right now it dosn't say nothing about the relevance of the brand and XV while impressive is basically smoke and mirrors until they show something 100% real and playable.
Is people mocks LR is beacuse it will basically represent FF for the next years until XV comes.
and the series will keep evolving and changing attracting new fans that probably will alienate other future FF releases
Well it's clearly not dead as a product that manages to make money but creatively it's as dead as you can get. I'll never understand the thinking behind making not one but TWO sequels to the absolute trash that was FF13. 2006 was Square's last great year in terms of Final Fantasy.
PshycoNinja
Member
Okay it's time to clear all this crap up.
Yes this is real time and in game.
No. These are in game too as you an see the rendering engine clipping and screen tearing. Also at the behemoth part Noctis' hand is clipping into his jacket. Yup, the pre-rendered cutscene animators totally missed that. ( ._.)
No this is in game too.
Everything being said here is false. It's all assumptions based on a false comment off record by an unknowledgable PR representative from SE. Plus half those PR guys at E3 were temps anyways. What would they know.
This is gameplay right.....RIGHT?
Yes this is real time and in game.
No. These are in game too as you an see the rendering engine clipping and screen tearing. Also at the behemoth part Noctis' hand is clipping into his jacket. Yup, the pre-rendered cutscene animators totally missed that. ( ._.)
So this is CGI
No this is in game too.
Everything being said here is false. It's all assumptions based on a false comment off record by an unknowledgable PR representative from SE. Plus half those PR guys at E3 were temps anyways. What would they know.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
If ARR is not good you should stop playing games in general I guess. Also LR when it'll be out and I'll win over you all with my bet
R_thanatos
Member
You're right , but this flaw is shared on all the rpg battle system out there. I can play FF , Star ocean , atelier , tales of and many others can keep the same routine for regular ennemies on the map and adopt a difference strategy for the bosses. it's not that your point isn't true ...it's the fact that all rpg have the same flaw ..
i honnestly don't remember a rpg battle system where you don't stick to your strategy , except for the bosses and NONE OF THEM encourage you much to change unless at those points.
I'm sure the series will revitalize as soon as the whole XIII/XIV debacle is over. I didn't hate the XIII series, but it was definetely a step down from previous FF games. That being said, Lightning Return's actually looks like it might have enjoyable gameplay, despite a complete shit story
sublimit
Banned
The only way SE will be able to kill the series is if they follow XIII's example of releasing sequel after sequel re-using the same assets again and again.Unfortunatelly all the signs point that they will continue this policy with XV as well.
People loved FF in the first place because each game almost felt like a new IP,regardless of the success (or not) of the previous games.People respected Squaresoft for that.
If they return to the one-shot model of old for the main series then the franchise will be fine even if they fail once in a while.
People loved FF in the first place because each game almost felt like a new IP,regardless of the success (or not) of the previous games.People respected Squaresoft for that.
If they return to the one-shot model of old for the main series then the franchise will be fine even if they fail once in a while.
There's always been discussions about what final fantasies are good or not, and there's always been heated debate about that. But that's not what we're seeing anymore, we're seeing vast amounts of "This is shit" with a few defenders here and there.
replace Final Fantasy with any other franchise that's been around as long as it has and you can probably write a pretty compelling argument.
Metroid isn't dying, it's already dead.
Mario isn't dying, he's already dead.
Castlevania isn't dying, it's already dead.
etc etc...
so much hate.
Metroid isn't dying, it's already dead.
Mario isn't dying, he's already dead.
Castlevania isn't dying, it's already dead.
etc etc...
so much hate.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
With all the wrong SE has done to Final Fantasy this gen, it's amazing how well Dissidia turned out. Seriously one of the best handheld games ever made.
Tawney Bomb
Member
They've been dead to me for quite some time, but I think the franchise is just having a slump.
If FF XV turns out to be a dud, it will cause big problems for them.
They're banking a lot on FF XIV and I've heard mixed things about it and wasn't blown away with the portion of the beta I played, but I would guess XIV is more of a financial bet, where XV seems to be them showing they can still make a game everyone can love.
If FF XV turns out to be a dud, it will cause big problems for them.
They're banking a lot on FF XIV and I've heard mixed things about it and wasn't blown away with the portion of the beta I played, but I would guess XIV is more of a financial bet, where XV seems to be them showing they can still make a game everyone can love.
If ARR is not good you should stop playing games in general I guess. Also LR when it'll be out and I'll win over you all with my bet
ARR is a game that would've been considered great had it come out when it originally did. The game is not good where it is now. Well... not great.