Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown

Abriael said:
Not a matter of being upset. It's a matter of criticizing and ridiculing where entirely due.

There's no need to be upset to do that. It's time for game journos to learn that they can be on the receiving end of criticism as well. It's an educational experience.
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And you call your posts on this thread regarding Polygon Criticism?

They read like childish banter and not constructive at all.
 
Disliking the game and giving it a bad review is fine, reviews have crossed the line into insulting the creators and the fanbases. The blowback on that is over the top but the GARME JURNALISTZ themselves have been acting like assholes and they're the ones with accountability, not some nonexistant internet hivemind.
 
He's right. Every great review gets drowned out and ignored the second a somewhat negative review comes out. And the fanbase, 99% of who haven't even played the game yet, go into an uproar.

The Eurogamer Uncharted 3 debacle being the biggest example.
 
Brandon F said:
Ah, so it's IGN God Hand all over again. Who gave the shitty Dragon's Crown review? Polygon?
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It wasn't shitty at all, in my opinion. The reviewer wasn't a fan of the art style, but really enjoyed the game still. An Atlus PR person said they really enjoyed the review, too.

Polygon has its issues, but I don't think they were in the wrong here.
 
Mesoian said:
Naw, you do. Siskle and Ebert took a disproportionate amount of flak for a lot of their reviews. Same thing with Rob Redford, to the point where certain shows like MST3K and SNL would make skits based on it.

People have this reaction because the people writing these reviews are higher profile. No one gives a fuck about what SonicFan.org gives Sonic Colors. The people working at IGN and Gamespot and whatever else are more in the public eye, they're supposed to be the universal voices of reason, so it's easy to see why people flip out when the voice of reason of the video game world, this world that people like me and them spend so much time and effort dwelling within, says something they like is wrong. The Polygon review is especially egregious because not only is it saying that they didn't like the game, but that if you did like the game, you are a bad person and you need to get your life sorted out.
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Hm, I dunno. I guess I would have to see specific examples in regard to Siskel, Ebert, and Redford. I know S&E had an incredible amount of clout, and faced backlash from those in the industry from a negative review, but I wasn't aware of much from the movie going public. I was thinking in regards to movies that tend to gravitate towards very passionate fanbases. The Dark Knight was a critical darling. I don't remember discussions of the film ever really concentrating of the handful of negative reviews it received. Same with Avengers.
 
Relaxed Muscle said:
When you stop considering the gameplay of a game (a good game given the review itself) and enter into the territory of way more subjective things that barely has to do with the game itself, I consider the reviewer is doing a poor job.

And when people does a poor job they should be called for it. Is a very distinct case when reviewers analyzed a game and didn't thought it was a good game and rabbid fans raged about people having different taste than theirs...
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Don#t go into this argument of objectivity in reviews. Reviews are not objective. I don#t care for what reason a game gets a lower score as long as the reviewer makes the argument for it, and shows me that it hampered his/her enjoyment of the game.
 
I watched the video and then went to Polygon to read the review afterwards. I didn't even know Polygon gave the game a low score until I watched Jim's video.

After reading it, I can totally understand why the reviewer gave it the score they chose but it was also reviewed by a woman. I'm curious how the actual guys on the crew feel about it. That being said, she is completely welcome to criticize the game for it's art style and objectification of women (which, let's be honest, it totally is sexist) and I see nothing wrong with the review on that basis.

The only problem I had with the review is that she didn't seem to talk about a lot of the deeper gameplay mechanics and spent too much time talking about the art style; however, if the art style was the deciding factor of the quality of the game, I'm sure it would have received a much lower score than it did.

I remember before Uncharted 3 came out, people flipped out over a couple of lower review scores before the game released. Now that it has been on store shelves for a couple of years, most people consider it the worst of the series and probably would have scored it the same, if not lower. Ironic, dontcha think?
 
I think the last time I got really angry was IGN's God Hand review, after that I learned to not give a shit about any review.
 
Eidan said:
? Do you think game reviewers aren't keenly aware that they can be criticized for their reviews? Do you think this is a recent phenomena?
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Considering how Polygon's editors reacted on twitter and elsewhere, by attacking a few the critics on a personal level (I've seen them go as far as doing digging on some of them to try and undermine their criticism), looks like they aren't aware that criticism of a review is something entirely warranted.
 
Abriael said:
Not a matter of being upset. It's a matter of criticizing and ridiculing where entirely due.

There's no need to be upset to do that. It's time for game journos to learn that they can be on the receiving end of criticism as well. It's an educational experience.
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And he said criticizing a review was fine. But people often times drown out all of the positive reviews because of that one negative review. The DC review thread was entirely about the Polygon review even though nearly all of the other reviews were very positive.
 
patjburns89 said:
It wasn't shitty at all, in my opinion. The reviewer wasn't a fan of the art style, but really enjoyed the game still. An Atlus PR person said they really enjoyed the review, too.

Polygon has its issues, but I don't think they were in the wrong here.
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They weren't wrong. The reviewer can give whatever score she feels appropriate.

We can criticize her for giving that score. It's a two-way street. Hell, it's a three-way street because then there's always a group criticizing the group that's criticizing the review.
 
Xater said:
Don#t go into this argument of objectivity in reviews. Reviews are not objective. I don#t care for what reason a game gets a lower score as long as the reviewer makes the argument for it, and shows me that it hampered his/her enjoyment of the game.
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The problem is when you start analyzing a game outside of the game itself and you go to a way more subjective matter. Also is inconsistent as fuck, given that plenty of other game share very similar problems, not only japanese games but also western games...

Does she think that God of War is also a teen fantasy where all girls are there to be either fuck or be killed?.
 
antitrop said:
Sure, if you say so.

Phil Kollar played The Last of Us wrong and his review is bad, I would never recommend anyone that has any interest in the game at all to ever read it.
And if they were to read it, I would advise them not to take it seriously and seek out every other opinion that they could find instead.
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Saying "this review is bad" is perfectly reasonable. Directing untold amounts of personal hate and vicious insults toward the reviewer on social media and comments, concocting conspiracy theories about money-hatting, and demanding the entire site be banned from discussion are not.
 
Coxy said:
Disliking the game and giving it a bad review is fine, reviews have crossed the line into insulting the creators and the fanbases. The blowback on that is over the top but the GARME JURNALISTZ themselves have been acting like assholes and they're the ones with accountability, not some nonexistant internet hivemind.
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That is my exact problem with how polygon wrote the review, it is not specifically stated but it is an underlying theme in that review. If you like Dragons Crown you are a pervert, is basically what this review boils down to. Not to mention the amount of shit they talk about any criticism on twitter.
 
I would have thought by now that games journalists would know to ignore the very negative and hateful comments while focusing attention on positive ones - even positive ones can be disagreements.

It could be a generational thing - maybe certain age groups still feel the need to react and answer to negative internet comments?

Or...focusing on this stuff is what generates the hits.
 
Abriael said:
Not a matter of being upset. It's a matter of criticizing and ridiculing where entirely due.

There's no need to be upset to do that. It's time for game journos to learn that they can be on the receiving end of criticism as well. It's an educational experience.
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I'm not exactly sure what you want them to do in this situation. Not mention that the art style detracted from the game when she went through the game? Art style is a deliberate choice in a game. It's not above criticism, right?
 
Eidan said:
The Dark Knight was a critical darling. I don't remember discussions of the film ever really concentrating of the handful of negative reviews it received.
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When it came to posting first reviews of "The Dark Knight Rises" on the aggregation site Rotten Tomatoes, editor-in-chief Matt Atchity says he and his staff were prepared for the worst: "...I knew full well that when the first negative review came in, the reviewer would get pasted in the comments," he wrote in a statement.

Atchity and his staff decided to temporarily disable comments on Rotten Tomatoes' "TDKR" page after death threats -- directed at a reviewer who panned the much anticipated film -- were made.

The threats were initially directed at the first negative review that was posted on the page -- written by Marshall Fine -- who we noted as a dissenting voice earlier this week in our reviews roundup.
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http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie...ns-inspire-death-threats-shuts-164809930.html
 
Things like this are why the quality of game reviews will never improve. Gamers should be holding reviewers accountable when they write trash. I'm tired of legitimately terrible reviews being given a pass because "it's just someone's opinion."
 
njean777 said:
That is my exact problem with how polygon wrote the review, it is not specifically stated but it is an underlying theme in that review. IF you like Dragons Crown you are a pervert. Not to mention the amount of shit they talk about any criticism on twitter.
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Exactly. The whole way they approached and executed the review, and the way they finished up afterwards was the whole definition of unprofessional and biased.

I'm ready to bet that they gave the review purposely to the most politically biased writer (which is something a review editor with a hint of journalistic integrity does not do, ever. You don't give games to a reviewer with preconceptions against it) in order to get a controversial outcome and more hits.
 
I notice every time there is fervor over a review being objectively wrong and the reviewer being uncredible (an accusation that usually only appears in conjunction with that score), that game is usually exclusive to a system or family of systems.

Which makes me wonder if it is really so much "You're hating on a game I like and thus I hate you!" and more "You said something bad about my team, you fucker."
 
That polygon review drama got my thread locked. Unforgivable.

I guess he's right though. Even if people think it's a shit review, a 'lol polygon' is enough. No need to go on and on about it.
 
If the game received a 6.5 from Polygon over repetitive gameplay, uninspired level design, and irritation over having to slog through 5 hours of game to play with your friends online, I don't think people would give a shit.

But the reviewer took issue with the art, and content. And for whatever reason, some people can't understand that a reviewer may not feel comfortable recommending something like this:

hqdefault.jpg


They're movie reviews where critics slam the violence for being gratuitous, or the sex is strictly for titillation, and has nothing to do with the film, and I feel people read those and think, "Shit yeah, this sounds right up my alley then!"

I guess I don't understand why if a game review is slammed for similar reasons, people can't say, "Shit yeah! I love big titties and I love poking warrior nuns! I'm fucking there."

Big deal the reviewer didn't like it.
 
Abriael said:
Which is a strawman argument to create a topic where there's none, as I seriously doubt there are many that do nothing but (rightfullgy) shitting on polygon's ignorant and politically colored review.

And readers are just as free consider him a completely unprofessional and biased illiterate that shouldn't even review a fruit kiosk for that.
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Abriael said:
It's completely fair and warranted for gamers to criticize a review (especially when the review is as completely silly as this one, heavily based on an element that should weigh almost zero in a review). Critics need to learn to take it as they dish it, and polygon quite obviously didn't learn that yet looking at their reactions.
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Should I teach you about subjectivity?
 
Relaxed Muscle said:
The problem is when you start analyzing a game outside of the game itself and you go to a way more subjective matter. Also is inconsistent as fuck, given that plenty of other game share very similar problems, not only japanese games but also western games...

Does she think that God of War is also a teen fantasy where all girls are there to be either fuck or be killed?.
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First of all I disagree with the bold. It is part of the game. The art, the themes etc. are in there. Secondly, who knows? I have not read her God of War review? Has she even done one? I could certainly see that male fantasy argument being made in the case of GoW.

border said:
I think well-adjusted Dynasty Warriors fans aren't afraid to admit that the series is kinda garbage.
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I wouldn't and I am sure Jim would not either, but that#s a totally different discussion not appropriate for this thread.
 
border said:
I think well-adjusted Dynasty Warriors fans aren't afraid to admit that the series is kinda garbage.
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I'm a huge DW fan, and yes, I'm completely able to admit that the series is kinda shit. But it's fun shit that I greatly enjoy playing. So you're definitely spot-on here.
 
Abriael said:
Another silly video from Jim Sterling.

It's completely fair and warranted for gamers to criticize a review (especially when the review is as completely silly as this one, heavily based on an element that should weigh almost zero in a review). Critics need to learn to take it as they dish it, and polygon quite obviously didn't learn that yet looking at their reactions.

Of course Jim Sterling has to defend the wrong side, as usual
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I hate Polygon with all my guts (and am currently so overhyped for DC that I could crew my own fingers off), but this makes no sense. What does any website have to learn from disgruntled fans, that criticism leveraged to a beloved game is a bad idea? That seems like a terrible lesson to learn!

For the record, while I obviously disagree with the opinion of the reviewer, that's not my problem with her review. The reviewer mentioned next to nothing about the gameplay, which should be the most important thing reviewed in a game! The only thing she made was an offhand remark about "button mashing", which is apparently not the case from other opinions of the game. However, I'm OK with the existence of the review and this is even my first (and hopefuly last, having served as context for the rest of this post) criticism of it. I don't think it should not exist, and certainly I don't think that they should have given it any other score if that is their opinion.

It is true that the door swings both ways, and that if one has freedom of opinion and speech to criticise the game, then others have the same right to criticise the review. Indeed, you are entirely within your right. That doesn't mean it's a particularly useful employment of your time.
 
SolidSnakex said:
His point is that the game did receive universal praise with the exception of maybe one or two reviews. So if they general consensus is that the game is good or great, then why worry/get upset about the one or two reviews that may have not cared about it? Especially in the case of Polygon which many people say that they don't care about anyway.
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Point being that if people cannot form their own opinion about the game through playing it, reviews will dominate the discussion. And outlier scores will be the main topic of discussion. We're only in Phase 1 of public reaction to Dragon's Crown, so it seems a little early to claim that this was a total disruption.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
I notice every time there is fervor over a review being objectively wrong and the reviewer being uncredible (an accusation that usually only appears in conjunction with that score), that game is usually exclusive to a system or family of systems.

Which makes me wonder if it is really so much "You're hating on a game I like and thus I hate you!" and more "You said something bad about my team, you fucker."
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Or maybe you're looking too hard for a trend.

If a major outlet dropped a 6 bomb on Bioshock Infinite a few months ago you would have watched that thread go fucking nuclear, too.
 
Relaxed Muscle said:
The problem is when you start analyzing a game outside of the game itself and you go to a way more subjective matter. Also is inconsistent as fuck, given that plenty of other game share very similar problems, not only japanese games but also western games...

Does she think that God of War is also a teen fantasy where all girls are there to be either fuck or be killed?.
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There have certainly been complaints about the women and mini-games tied to them in the God of War series. Not that I understand what that has to do with this game.

It's also completely fine for a review to criticize aspects of a game outside of gameplay. You seem to keep implying gameplay is all that should matter in a review, which is BS.
 
OSHAN said:
If the game received a 6.5 from Polygon over repetitive gameplay, uninspired level design, and irritation over having to slog through 5 hours of game to play with your friends online, I don't think people would give a shit.

But the reviewer took issue with the art, and content. And for whatever reason, some people can't understand that a reviewer may not feel comfortable recommending something like this:

hqdefault.jpg


They're movie reviews where critics slam the violence for being gratuitous, or the sex is strictly for titillation, and has nothing to do with the film, and I feel people read those and think, "Shit yeah, this sounds right up my alley then!"

I guess I don't understand why if a game review is slammed for similar reasons, people can't say, "Shit yeah! I love big titties and I love poking warrior nuns! I'm fucking there."

Big deal the reviewer didn't like it.
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Maybe it is just me but I see nothing wrong with the drawing, she is fully clothed. Are women not allowed to spread their legs fully clothed anymore?
 
This video made me want to look into Dragon's Crown. I saw gameplay of it earlier, but the fact that it's getting great reviews + that gameplay that I haven't seen must have pushed me over into the interested area. Also I'm getting a bit tired of playing the multiplayer focused rpg/arpg games. I guess I want to play a real single playable rpg. For some reason I find it a bit of a hurdle to play my consoles but I'll have to start soon anyway with Beyond getting closer.
 
Omegasquash said:
I mean...dude has a point. Everyone getting up in arms about a bad review is sort of a waste of time.
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I also think that gaming journalists getting up in arms over the gaming masses is just as big of a waste of time. The more screen time you give to negative publicity, the longer it will stay around.
 
njean777 said:
Maybe it is just me but I see nothing wrong with the drawing, she is fully clothed. Are women not allowed to spread their legs fully clothed anymore?
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Do you not see the chopped off head of a beast locked onto her leg? Look at all that blood man. Violence /sarcasm

Yeah I saw nothing wrong too. Art, so complicated.

Better resolution of the pic.

0s8peHk.jpg
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Ploid 3.0 said:
This video made me want to look into Dragon's Crown. I saw gameplay of it earlier, but the fact that it's getting great reviews + that gameplay that I haven't seen must have pushed me over into the interested area. Also I'm getting a bit tired of playing the multiplayer focused rpg/arpg games. I guess I want to play a real single playable rpg. For some reason I find it a bit of a hurdle to play my consoles but I'll have to start soon anyway with Beyond getting closer.
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That's basically what DC is though, however it is perfectly playable solo.
 
njean777 said:
Maybe it is just me but I see nothing wrong with the drawing, she is fully clothed. Are women not allowed to spread their legs fully clothed anymore?
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Honestly the chastity belt forms sexually charged thoughts probably :P If it wasn't there it probably wouldn't have as strong as an impact. Though makes sense that it's there
 
Xater said:
Don#t go into this argument of objectivity in reviews. Reviews are not objective. I don#t care for what reason a game gets a lower score as long as the reviewer makes the argument for it, and shows me that it hampered his/her enjoyment of the game.
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Yup unless the reviewer is factually wrong such as "Dragon's Crown has no multiplayer" but that didn't happen here.
 
QisTopTier said:
Honestly the chastity belt forms sexually charged thoughts probably :P If it wasn't there it probably wouldn't have as strong as an impact. Though makes sense that it's there
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She is a nun isn't she? If she is then it makes total sense why it is there as you said.
 
FaintDeftone said:
After reading it, I can totally understand why the reviewer gave it the score they chose but it was also reviewed by a woman. I'm curious how the actual guys on the crew feel about it. That being said, she is completely welcome to criticize the game for it's art style and objectification of women (which, let's be honest, it totally is sexist) and I see nothing wrong with the review on that basis.

The only problem I had with the review is that she didn't seem to talk about a lot of the deeper gameplay mechanics and spent too much time talking about the art style; however, if the art style was the deciding factor of the quality of the game, I'm sure it would have received a much lower score than it did.
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When I read a review nowadays, that's all I look for. Whether the reviewer accurately lists deeper gameplay mechanics, subsystems or any little tidbits regarding gameplay. In todays reviews, that shit is damn near nonexistant (so fucking sad everything in gaming got dumbed down)

It seems like reviewers only review the brief presentation and overall package instead of digging deep and seeing what the stuff is made of. If they're just gonna tell me about stuff I already know or brief details with full discriptions, then what do I need to read the review for? I can get all that info myself.

That was my issue with the review, the lady was so bothered by the artstyle, she forgot to talk about the rest of the game. While annoying, she's hardly the sole offender regarding these type of things
 
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