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[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

Polygon gave Dragon's Crown a 6.5. Here's their definition of a 7:

"Sevens are good games that may even have some great parts, but they also have some big "buts." They often don't do much with their concepts, or they have interesting concepts but don't do much with their mechanics. They can be recommended with several caveats."

Which matches the written text of their review of the game. Great game IF you can tolerate the repetitive grinding & the portrayal of women in the game. For some people, those are two very large caveats and would substantially hamper their enjoyment of the game. For others, they're non-issues.

 

[codhand]

his DW8 point, checkmate.

 

[AppleMIX]

Man, I remember the whole 8.8 shit storm. It was the point when I stopped taking individual reviews so seriously.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

That's basically what DC is though, however it is perfectly playable solo.

I was about to ask if it was playable solo, but I figured since it was on console, and especially PSV that it was. I mean I can play PoE (the arpg that I play too much of along with TL2) solo, but I kinda want to trade for the gear I need. The trade window makes me want to. I'm sorta laughing to myself because D3's AH is kinda the same, though at least it's not as easy as PoE and I move on since I can't afford most of what people are selling in PoE.

 

[Carcetti]

There have certainly been complaints about the women and mini-games tied to them in the God of War series. Not that I understand what that has to do with this game.

It's also completely fine for a review to criticize aspects of a game outside of gameplay. You seem to keep implying gameplay is all that should matter in a review, which is BS.

God of War is a series of pretty dumb games that peaked with part 2 but just went on sailing with repetitive plots, juvenile sex minigames and a unintentionally comedic douchebag of a main character. 6.5/10

 

[famousmortimer]

I think Jim is correct... but I also think he is making it a bigger deal than it should be. Or maybe I'm just in a bubble. But when the Uncharted 3 eurogamer 8, or the polygon TLoU 7.5 or this polygon Dragons Crown review happened... I looked at the reviews, got their perspective and moved on. And sure, there was a thread on GAF (and I assume other sites) about each of those scores but I ignored those threads and most other threads about the games were just fine. So just by ignoring a single thread with each game I didn't run into all of this immaturity and ballyhoo.


Which is what he is suggesting, and I agree with that. But I think at the same time he is giving those singular threads more credence than they deserve. I think the majority of us look at those threads and laugh and move on. It only takes like 5 posters to make an entire thread look like shit and I guess you can extrapolate from there that it makes the entire forum look like shit... but I don't buy that. GAF is at, what, like 125k members? It has like 20 dudes bitching about Polygon's dragon's crown review? Who cares. It's minuscule. Ignore it.


It was good video, a bit of preaching to the choir for most of us (I hope), but maybe it will get through to one of the handful of people that partake in this type of stupidity.

 

[Eidan]

She is a nun isn't she? If she is then it makes total sense why it is there as you said.

Do you really not see how a drawing of a woman laid back, legs spread, with a clear view of her chastity belt, could be considered sexually charged and objectionable?

 

[truly101]

Man, I remember the whole 8.8 shit storm. It was the point when I stopped taking individual reviews so seriously.

You don't have to take the too seriously, just in consideration with all the other reviews. Maybe the negative nancy has some fair points.

I'm too old to be anything but reasonable and even keel when it comes to video game hype and reception. I just want the thing to entertain me enough to complete it and hopefully I enjoy it enough to play it again at some point in the future.

 

[antitrop]

I think Jim is correct... but I also think he is making it a bigger deal than it should be. Or maybe I'm just in a bubble. But when the Uncharted 3 eurogamer 8, or the polygon TLoU 7.5 or this polygon Dragons Crown review happened... I looked at the reviews, got their perspective and moved on. And sure, there was a thread on GAF (and I assume other sites) about each of those scores but I ignored those threads and most other threads about the games were just fine. So just by ignoring a single thread with each game I didn't run into all of this immaturity and ballyhoo.


Which is what he is suggesting, and I agree with that. But I think at the same time he is giving those singular threads more credence than they deserve. I think the majority of us look at those threads and laugh and move on. It only takes like 5 posters to make an entire thread look like shit and I guess you can extrapolate from there that it makes the entire forum look like shit... but I don't buy that. GAF is at, what, like 125k members? It has like 20 dudes bitching about Polygon's dragon's crown review? Who cares. It's minuscule. Ignore it.


It was good video, a bit of preaching to the choir for most of us (I hope), but maybe it will get through to one of the handful of people that partake in this type of stupidity.

I stand by all of my comments in The Last of Us review thread, especially so after having played the game.

 

[SAB CA]

It's a common element of human nature to focus on the bad, and give it LOADS and LOADS of attention, while ignoring the good. This isn't something that just happens with game reviews... people do it all the time, with everything they do. I dislike it myself, because I don't think negativity and evil need to receive the lion's share of attention in any given situation.

I find it kind of overblown, though. How many people really know who Polygon is? Does it really have such a strong sway, as to matter to the DC developers? With all the JP and US reviews to come, will their one view REALLY matter once the game reaches those who preordered, and will be discussing it? Given what it is, I'm much more impressed it's doing as well as it is... and THAT'S the part that has caught my eye, not the one negative review.

And is a 6.5 even really that bad anywho? The reviewer is disgusted, blah blah, but it's only .5 under a "Good" rating. This reviewer has as much a reason to be revolted by the art, as those who will give it a 9.5 have to bump it up a few points, because they LOVE the art. 6.5 may be low, but it doesn't do the product a crazy disservice, such as giving it a 3.0 or something.

The best thing about DC, is that once everything about it is laid out for one to truly judge, it has enough actual strength to sway those who are interested. It's not a shallow experience at all; if anything, it has some of the strongest features of any BEU / ARPG / 2D game created. In the end, it'll be remembered for this, not for 1 review out of thousands.

 

[SteveThom]

Be Careful guys.

Judging by how the last thread went. You don't want to get banned.

protect yo neck.


Bottom line is she didn't like it for whatever reason. Cool.

That really should be it. Was it poorly written? maybe. Do I understand her issues? Not really. But fuck it is her opinion.

and if it bothers you that much...just ignore it.

If all the tinfoil hat stuff about plugging for hit or teh anti-sony stuff is true (it's not), then you are falling right into their "trap".

The real shitty part is that a brilliant review that went over these issues was posted and overlooked.

 

[border]

I wouldn't and I am sure Jim would not either, but that#s a totally different discussion not appropriate for this thread.

I think it's a little pertinent because Jim says "Oh I can put up with all this Dynasty Warriors criticism so you should put up with Dragon's Crown being slagged."

I don't think most DW fans really believe the Dynasty Warriors titles are legitimately good. They recognize it as amusing but highly janky, repetitive garbage that appeals to their particular sensibilities. Therefore they're a little bit more immune to criticism of the series.

Whereas Dragon's Crown fans earnestly and wholeheartedly believe the game is awesome, so they're going to be a little bit more sensitive. Which is not to say that they shouldn't try being a little less sensitive, but just that the situation is somewhat different.

 

[ABC]

His point is that the game did receive universal praise with the exception of maybe one or two reviews. So if they general consensus is that the game is good or great, then why worry/get upset about the one or two reviews that may have not cared about it? Especially in the case of Polygon which many people say that they don't care about anyway.

The thing with bad reviews is that even if the game is universally liked, it may influence some gamers to not buy a game, especially if the review is by a bigger site. A niche game like Dragons Crown needs all the sales it can get.

 

[njean777]

Do you really not see how a drawing of a woman laid back, legs spread, with a clear view of her chastity belt, could be considered sexually charged and objectionable?

No because I don't go looking for sexually objectionable tones. If she asked me to have sex with her, then it would be a different story. But a nun that has a chastity belt makes perfect sense and who the hell cares if her legs are spread open? In context she may be way to tired to give a shit, and that is in itself does not make the drawing sexual. I am sorry I do not find a fully clothed women with her legs spread as sexual, maybe I grew up different from you.

 

[nynt9]

Maybe it is just me but I see nothing wrong with the drawing, she is fully clothed. Are women not allowed to spread their legs fully clothed anymore?

Welcome to the gaming zeitgeist of 2013. Or perhaps "bandwagon" is a better term here.

 

[Xater]

I think it's a little pertinent because Jim says "Oh I can put up with all this Dynasty Warriors criticism so you should put up with Dragon's Crown being slagged."

I don't think most DW fans really believe the Dynasty Warriors titles are legitimately good. They recognize it as amusing but highly janky, repetitive garbage that appeals to their particular sensibilities. Therefore they're a little bit more immune to criticism of the series.

Whereas Dragon's Crown fans earnestly and wholeheartedly believe the game is awesome, so they're going to be a little bit more sensitive. Which is not to say that they shouldn't try being a little less sensitive, but just that the situation is somewhat different.

You are assuming a lot there.

 

[Kater]

Polygon gave Dragon's Crown a 6.5. Here's their definition of a 7:

"Sevens are good games that may even have some great parts, but they also have some big "buts." They often don't do much with their concepts, or they have interesting concepts but don't do much with their mechanics. They can be recommended with several caveats."

Which matches the written text of their review of the game. Great game IF you can tolerate the repetitive grinding & the portrayal of women in the game. For some people, those are two very large caveats and would substantially hamper their enjoyment of the game. For others, they're non-issues.

Couldn't agree more with that.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The thing with bad reviews is that even if the game is universally liked, it may influence some gamers to not buy a game, especially if the review is by a bigger site. A niche game like Dragons Crown needs all the sales it can get.

It is never, nor should it be, a reviewer's job to help sell a game, even if they love it and think it's the best game ever.

 

[Carcetti]

It's just hardcore gamers making their being 'credible gamers' their whole identity and the base of their self-worth. It's why console fanboys exist too, they identify with the product. It's just so easy to get into that mentality when you really like something. I'd guess every fan of some thing or another has had those moments.

Dragon's Crown looks exactly like art in Heavy Metal magazine (is that still around?). I guess it's just that the readers of that mag don't have trouble admitting it's fantasy cheesecake.

It's why they had to close off Rotten Tomatoes review commentaries when Batman fanboys started sending death threats to people who didn't give Dark Knight movies 5 stars.

 

[timetokill]

Another silly video from Jim Sterling.

It's completely fair and warranted for gamers to criticize a review (especially when the review is as completely silly as this one, heavily based on an element that should weigh almost zero in a review). Critics need to learn to take it as they dish it, and polygon quite obviously didn't learn that yet looking at their reactions.

Of course Jim Sterling has to defend the wrong side, as usual

Not a matter of being upset. It's a matter of criticizing and ridiculing where entirely due.

There's no need to be upset to do that. It's time for game journos to learn that they can be on the receiving end of criticism as well. It's an educational experience.

It is never, nor should it be, a reviewer's job to help sell a game, even if they love it and think it's the best game ever.

Yeah, frankly that kind of attitude is very worrying/disturbing, the whole "use game reviews as marketing" side of the industry.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

First of all I disagree with the bold. It is part of the game. The art, the themes etc. are in there. Secondly, who knows? I have not read her God of War review? Has she even done one? I could certainly see that male fantasy argument being made in the case of GoW.

The problem is that the ART itself is not even discussed in her review just the fact it has women with few clothes and suggestive poses. That's all, is not discussing the art itself the heritage, the detail of it, the use of colors...just the fact that in her opinion does a bad work depicting women.

I don't know her opinion of GoW:A because Polygon decided that a man should be doing that review (Arthur Gies) why wasn't the case here? why this particular game had to suffer such escrutinous and scorn when every female in God of War (or many other games, western or not) is barely clothed and it's as bad? why sexualization is seen as the devil but extreme and gross violence is barely seen with such eyes and often applauded?

It's just the culmination of west game journalism biased view of the game and it's art, absurd just looking at "boobs" and ignoring the incredible heritage of classic art within it and incredible detailed (and exaggerated in both males and females) art style. The reviewer itself is not as fault, she took the bait Polygon editors put in front of her and she baited creating more hits with the polemic. Incredible unprofesional and disgusting behavior.

 

[erpg]

No because I don't go looking for sexually objectionable tones. If she asked me to have sex with her, then it would be a different story. But a nun that has a chastity belt makes perfect sense and who the hell cares if her legs are spread open? In context she may be way to tired to give a shit, and that is in itself does not make the drawing sexual. I am sorry I do not find a women with her legs spread as sexual, maybe I grew up different from you.

That's one hell of an upbringing.

Kamitani's designs and drawings are often meant to evoke sexuality. Like I said in the other thread, it's his style. Sexuality, crazy proportions and food porn. That's what you can expect from Vanillaware. And that's fine.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

The debacle over Polygon's Last of Us review was a goddamn embarrassment for this forum and he's absolutely right to criticize that sort of pathetic fanboyism.

Absolutely, totally agree and it's been happening more frequently in the last yeah or so. Hopefully it's just the excitement of a new generation boiling over.

 

[antitrop]

It is never, nor should it be, a reviewer's job to help sell a game, even if they love it and think it's the best game ever.

How idealistic of you.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

That is my exact problem with how polygon wrote the review, it is not specifically stated but it is an underlying theme in that review. If you like Dragons Crown you are a pervert, is basically what this review boils down to. Not to mention the amount of shit they talk about any criticism on twitter.

Wow, and I thought the little paranoid narrative you wove for the PR response to the review was warped. So Dannielle can't comment on how a game made her feel directly alienated because in turn your own perception of that comment might make you feel alienated? You know, ignoring the fact she never mentioned in her review that she thought people who liked Dragons crown were perverted.

 

[QisTopTier]

I think it's a little pertinent because Jim says "Oh I can put up with all this Dynasty Warriors criticism so you should put up with Dragon's Crown being slagged."

I don't think most DW fans really believe the Dynasty Warriors titles are legitimately good. They recognize it as amusing but highly janky, repetitive garbage that appeals to their particular sensibilities. Therefore they're a little bit more immune to criticism of the series.

Whereas Dragon's Crown fans earnestly and wholeheartedly believe the game is awesome, so they're going to be a little bit more sensitive. Which is not to say that they shouldn't try being a little less sensitive, but just that the situation is somewhat different.

Warriors Orochi 3 is one of the best beat em up games I've played in ages. Sooo uh yeah I really believe it's good.

 

[njean777]

That's one hell of an upbringing.

Kamitani's designs and drawings are often meant to evoke sexuality.

Did he say this himself? Or are you just imposing your view?

It is the same reason I do not find girls with big boobs instant sexual or a big butt. My mind doesn't instantly go to OMG LOOK AT THEM TITTIES AND ASS WOOOOOO.

Wow, and I thought the little paranoid narrative you wove for the PR response to the review was warped. So Dannielle can't comment on how a game made her feel directly alienated because in turn your own perception of that comment might make you feel alienated? You know, ignoring the fact she never mentioned in her review that she thought people who liked Dragons crown were perverted.

Paranoid? Do you follow them on twitter at all? Like really they do it every single time they get criticized, especially Arthur. Also if you ever read any literature the underlying tone of something can be way more important then the actual writing itself. If you missed the underlying tone in the review then I cannot help you. Go study literature more.

 

[tirkaroKujo]

I generally agree with the video.

I'm just sorta disappointed that it's only just now valid for a questionable art style to detract from the score in regards to one of the most unique, gorgeous, and meticulously detailed 2D games with awesome and varied character design. As opposed to, y'know, another goddamn colorless shooter starring a generic white man with brown hair and stubble.

 

[OSHAN]

That's one hell of an upbringing.

Kamitani's designs and drawings are often meant to evoke sexuality.

Yeah, but she's like a nun, and what have you. She's probably just tired. She's not thinking of being "lady-like"; clearly she's exhausted and just chillin.

The spread legs and warming glow emanating from the pouch directly above her vagina aren't meant to invite any sexual thoughts--none. She's just tired.

 

[Eidan]

No because I don't go looking for sexually objectionable tones. If she asked me to have sex with her, then it would be a different story. But a nun that has a chastity belt makes perfect sense and who the hell cares if her legs are spread open? In context she may be way to tired to give a shit, and that is in itself does not make the drawing sexual. I am sorry I do not find a fully clothed women with her legs spread as sexual, maybe I grew up different from you.

Ok. Well to answer your original question, yes, it is just you.

 

[erpg]

Did he say this himself? Or are you just imposing your view?

It is the same reason I do not find girls with big boobs instant sexual or a big butt. My mind doesn't instantly go to OMG LOOK AT THEM TITTIES AND ASS WOOOOOO.

No, I don't think he ever said it himself, but I'm saying this as someone who isn't asexual and who has played quite a few Vanillaware games.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I'm not familiar with the Dragons Crown review but in general Sterling is spot on. It happens so often and it always makes me cringe. Unless we want every single review to be the same we should be more tolerant of different perspectives. I tend to think that they're valid because other people might share the same perspective even if you don't.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Out of curiosity, reverse the Polygon review.

It got a 9, the reviewer loved it, but all they talked about was the incredible spritework and the art and how the world in the game felt amazing to them.

Would everyone have been really pissed about it?

 

[njean777]

Ok. Well to answer your original question, yes, it is just you.

I dont think it is just me, I think the bandwagon male feminists want me to to think that though.

No, I don't think he ever said it himself, but I'm saying this as someone who isn't asexual and who has played quite a few Vanillaware games.

Ok, then it is just you.

 

[Jim Sterling]

I think it's a little pertinent because Jim says "Oh I can put up with all this Dynasty Warriors criticism so you should put up with Dragon's Crown being slagged."

I don't think most DW fans really believe the Dynasty Warriors titles are legitimately good. They recognize it as amusing but highly janky, repetitive garbage that appeals to their particular sensibilities. Therefore they're a little bit more immune to criticism of the series.

Whereas Dragon's Crown fans earnestly and wholeheartedly believe the game is awesome, so they're going to be a little bit more sensitive. Which is not to say that they shouldn't try being a little less sensitive, but just that the situation is somewhat different.

I believe Dynasty Warriors games are legitimately good. I've argued exactly why in this very video series.

However, being a fan of the series (a proper, reasonable one), I am also very comfortable and aware of the series' shortcomings. Thinking something is good doesn't mean you think it's perfect -- I am well aware of the faults with DW, and am fine with people taking those faults more into account than I would.

And the irony here is, I've played quite a bit of Dragon's Crown now, and on the surface you could level the exact same criticisms at it as you could at DW -- it could be called repetitive, it could be called clunky and janky in a way (especially when it comes to dealing with the amount of visual clutter onscreen). As a fan of brawlers, though, I appreciate both DW *and* Dragon's Crown, which share more similarities than you may think.

So yeah, it's somewhat dismissive to say "Oh it's different because Dragon's Crown is awesome and DW is objectively not good."

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I dont think it is just me, I think the bandwagon male feminists want me to to think that though.

I am not sure that you can insist you are not in a minority while simultaneously accuse everyone else of being on a side (bandwagoning, apparently) that you do not agree with.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I haven't watched the video yet but i agree with the blurb. that review thread was embarrassing. and people who are saying that women with O faces, legs spread apart, wearing chastity belts don't exude anything sexual are bonkers.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Out of curiosity, reverse the Polygon review.

It got a 9, the reviewer loved it, but all they talked about was the incredible spritework and the art and how the world in the game felt amazing to them.

Would everyone have been really pissed about it?

Is that really a reverse? she barely discusses spritework and the art itself.

The reverse case would be the game getting a 9 because it have tons of men without clothes and in sexy poses.

 

[Omegasquash]

Out of curiosity, reverse the Polygon review.

It got a 9, the reviewer loved it, but all they talked about was the incredible spritework and the art and how the world in the game felt amazing to them.

Would everyone have been really pissed about it?

If there was a comment in there to the effect of "that whole criticism earlier about the art being sexist is wrong" then it would have.

It's the internet.

 

[Carcetti]

What I'd like to know is why are people finding it so hard to admit that stuff is sexual. There's nothing wrong with it. Sexual entertainment won't make your hands hairy or make you go blind. It's okay to like it. But don't pretend it's not there. Or try to understand that others might not like your favorite fetish art.

 

[antitrop]

Is that really a reverse? she barely discusses spritework and the art itself.

The reverse case would be the game getting a 9 because it have tons of men without clothes and in sexy poses.

My problem with the Polygon Dragon's Crown review would be the same as if someone gave the game a 10 on the justification that the Sorceress' breasts are really great to look at.

 

[njean777]

I am not sure that you can insist you are not in a minority while simultaneously accuse everyone else of being on a side (bandwagoning, apparently) that you do not agree with.

You may be right. My bad.

 

[Superflat]

I would describe the art style as having a strong erotic element, sure for visual titillation, but not at all in the typical "pandering to teenage boys" way-- the players won't be pursuing, flirting with, or otherwise try to get women begging them to ravage their loins. There's no sexual fantasy that is going to be fulfilled here. I found the art to be pretty tasteful among all things, informed by art history and a lot of different inspirations. I personally don't see anything wrong with this direction, though I understand if some don't appreciate it.

It's a pretty bold art style in my opinion and I respect it quite a bit-- it even elevated my interest enough to pick it up. I thought a cohesive and interesting world, both visually and writing-wise, was created in this game.

A lot of people are going to be turned off by it, but that's okay. I totally agree with with Jim that focusing on the few bad reviews sours everything up for the worse.

 

[QisTopTier]

I believe Dynasty Warriors games are legitimately good. I've argued exactly why in this very video series.

However, being a fan of the series (a proper, reasonable one), I am also very comfortable and aware of the series' shortcomings. Thinking something is good doesn't mean you think it's perfect -- I am well aware of the faults with DW, and am fine with people taking those faults more into account than I would.

Hey Jim how do you scale DW8 vs WO3

I'm thinking about picking up DW8 eventually but I'm currently enjoying WO3 a lot.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Did he say this himself? Or are you just imposing your view?

Are you seriously attempting to argue that the female art from DC isn't overly sexualized on purpose? It's completely fine for you to say you don't give a fuck if it is, but to try and say you don't see how it is is insanity.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

My problem with the Polygon Dragon's Crown review would be the same as if someone gave the game a 10 on the justification that the Sorceress' breasts are really great to look at.

Either because on men boobs or woman boobs the reason behind a 9 or 10 would be as bad.

 

[-COOLIO-]

the man has a way with words.

gamer reactions on the internet, it's like clockwork.

 

[erpg]

I dont think it is just me, I think the bandwagon male feminists want me to to think that though.



Ok, then it is just you.

Okay, I'm going to stop after this quick tip:

Being deliberately obtuse is a really bad way to argue. Acting ignorant doesn't present you in a good light, and denying the existence of (very) reasonable premises based solely on your own limited experience is pretty anti-intellectual.

 

[Carcetti]

My problem with the Polygon Dragon's Crown review would be the same as if someone gave the game a 10 on the justification that the Sorceress' breasts are really great to look at.

That's not really unheard of. Metacritic gives us a 10/10 review of DoA Volleyball praising 'tantalizing eye candy'.

 

[njean777]

Are you seriously attempting to argue that the female art from DC isn't overly sexualized on purpose? It's completely fine for you to say you don't give a fuck if it is, but to try and say you don't see how it is is insanity.

Oh some of it is, but I just do not find that drawing sexual. Sure the sorceress with the way she walks and flaunts her boobs is sexual, but having big boobs unto itself is not sexual. I don't mind the art and the sexual tones, but I just didn't find that drawing to be sexual.