Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react

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It always kind of makes me laugh and is sadly ironic the false dichotomy between what is "acceptable" between mediums. Films have had BRUTAL rape scenes for years, nobody blinks an eye, books have described in rich detail the nature of sadism and rape and torture. Nobody really makes a fuss. But if a game does it...well, different story.

Just thinking out loud here....
 
I applaud Cara for being honest and reflective in her article.

Obviously, people have every right to be grossed out, put-off, or offended by the scene in question. They are free not to play the game if they choose, and they are free to voice their opinions and concerns. Likewise, the creators are free to make what they want, and to respond or not respond to outside criticism as they choose.

But I think that Dennaton might be doing something interesting with the way this scene is presented. Here's your player character, the one you're naturally going to share some kind of identification with, even if he's committing morally outrageous acts. You're presumably OK with killing as the player character -- that much is more or less the up-front contract you make with the game going in. Then, you get to the end of the level, and suddenly the player character is committing rape. You might be disgusted; you might be offended; you might start to think about why you find this act unacceptable, despite being OK with brutal murder. You might feel betrayed because rape wasn't part of the contract. (It might be now that the scene is being publicized so much, but let's say for the sake of the argument you don't already know about it.)

Then the director yells "CUT." Turns out it was fiction within the fiction. How do you feel now? Is rape all of a sudden OK because it was "not real"? Do your feelings of being grossed out, put-off, or offended magically dissolve because of a framing device? Or are they still there? Is committing rape acceptable when it's in a movie in a game but not when it's just in a game? I would guess that anybody who has a negative reaction to the rape scene will not be instantly appeased when they see it's not a real fictional rape. What does that say about the nature of the act? Alternatively, if you're all of a sudden cool with it, what does that say about our willingness to accept flimsy justifications for abhorrent acts?

It's possible that Dennaton are making a sharp statement about entertainment, vicarious gratification, and our conflicting impulses to just enjoy something versus truly examining what it means. It's also possible that they're just controversy-seeking blowhards who happen to make fun fucking games.

I also think that it's very interesting that the 'rape' in question is just a part of a movie, which seems to make it okay. While it's immediately jarring and graphic, the "CUT" transition lets the players know that it's all okay, they're just in a movie.

I wonder if this is an intentional commentary on the fact that rape is a very taboo subject in video games, but well accepted within film.
 
It's another thing entirely to torture a person. Even someone who is trying to kill you. It's seriously taboo in our culture.

Rape is a form of torture.

Somehow everyone was okay with all the torture in the Metal Gear Solid series, perhaps because it was mostly male on male torture?
 
I don't know how to feel about this. On one hand, it is a subject that shouldn't be treated lightly and I can certainly understand and emphatize with the backlash. On the other hand this is a game about a mental patient ruthlessly killing everyone he meets because someone else told him to do it;, which he does with a buttload of gore. It says something about society when there is no backlash against that violence, but there is one about rape which to me sounds like it would perfectly within the abhorrent violent behaviour of the main character. After playing the original this seems like what the main character of that game could do to a female. I think it fits better within the context compared to the guy only killing males and protecting the lone female he encounters.
 
It's one thing to murder something in a game. Especially in scenarios where they, too, are trying to kill you.

It's another thing entirely to torture a person. Even someone who is trying to kill you. It's seriously taboo in our culture.

Rape is a form of torture.

So, in my opinion, the idea of raping someone in a video game is extremely unsettling and gross, even in the context of mass murder.

Why can't that be the point? When I'm watching A Clockwork Orange I'm not getting off to the rape scene. I find it deplorable and painful to watch, but that's what makes it so effective. Why can't a game do the same?
 
Like I say, I haven't played the game before. Any examples?

Obviously, this one hasn't come out yet, but I'm trying to get my head around the context of the scene and whether it was a case of escalation or whether there is a point to it.

The whole theme of the first game is pretty much asking you If you feel fine killing so many people for little explained reasons. Althought some people say that the game sides with "let's just have fun part, context is unimportant" I have my doubts to an extent.
 
Caska's scene is like the definition of the objectification of women in rape. What Griffith does to her is entirely motivated to spite Guts.

and afterwards she completely loses her personality so Miura doesn't even have to deal with writing how the character interprets the event. She just becomes a burden for Guts to bear and a reminder of his hatred for Griffith.

I don't know why he used Berserk to argue his point considering that Miura routinely draws descriptive violent rape panels that are blatantly there to titillate some readers.
 
Why can't that be the point? When I'm watching A Clockwork Orange I'm not getting off to the rape scene. I find it deplorable and painful to watch, but that's what makes it so effective. Why can't a game do the same?

I never said it couldn't do the same. I'm just saying watching a simulated rape scene is one thing, it's another to engage in a simulated rape scene.
 
Or more about you personal feelings about the subject. (no offense, but that kind of generalization give me a pause)
No offense, but it would be nice to not have personal feelings attached to rape but I don't have that privilege. :)

But seriously, is it that hard to believe that rape scenes (of the rape of a woman) in most medium (written by men) might not exactly be very good depictions about the subject?
 
Awfully tough to do that when there aren't many women in the industry. Congress has become more empathetic of women because A) women are in congress more than ever and B) congressmen are around congresswomen more often now. Its hard to be empathetic of someone you don't have regular contact with in a working setting.

but that takes time. I mean you can't expect women already invested in another career path to see that there's a problem and jump ship like that.

and it doesn't mean that criticism can't be made in the meantime and that people can't learn. Part of getting more females in the industry is making it more of a welcoming place for women to begin with. Not a place filled with males that think rape is a joke and comparable to the cartoonish violence exhibited in most videogames.
 
People are really really offended by this and tolerate violence that defines the rest of the game?
LOL, how hypocrite.

I'm completely fun with all of that, it's just a fucking game and people need to relax IMHO.
 
It always kind of makes me laugh and is sadly ironic the false dichotomy between what is "acceptable" between mediums. Films have had BRUTAL rape scenes for years, nobody blinks an eye, books have described in rich detail the nature of sadism and rape and torture. Nobody really makes a fuss. But if a game does it...well, different story.

I think people do actually. Films and books are frequently banned because of it.

The whole theme of the first game is pretty much asking you If you feel fine killing so many people for little explained reasons. Althought some people say that the game sides with "let's just have fun part, context is unimportant" I have my doubts to an extent.

So the game makes a very specific point of it or is it ambiguous? I read on NeoGAF someone saying that Kane & Lynch 2 was an indictment of video game violence, when there was nothing in the game (from my experience) or from what the developers had said in interviews that even suggested that was the case.
 
It always kind of makes me laugh and is sadly ironic the false dichotomy between what is "acceptable" between mediums. Films have had BRUTAL rape scenes for years, nobody blinks an eye, books have described in rich detail the nature of sadism and rape and torture. Nobody really makes a fuss. But if a game does it...well, different story.

Just thinking out loud here....

Isn't it just more likely you're more tuned into games news and criticism than film criticism? There's no shortage of criticism of how rape is portrayed in any medium.
 
Rape isn't taken seriously because men generally don't have a fear of it. There's a reason the rape problem in the military blew up just now, its because we have more women in congress than ever before. Similarly, if women want to affect their portrayal in video games, they need to get in the industry and change them. I'm against curtailing artistic visions in ANY case. Not just video games. Hotline is a violent video game. Rape is violence. The two go together and it is thus artistically relevant to the game (rather than gratuitous, in which case I would criticize it).

This is a bit off-topic, but I hate the "get in the industry and change it yourself" attitude. Men can create games with better portrayals of women, gays, racial minorities, etc. too. "Change it yourself" is a lame excuse for the status quo when the industry can certainly do better.

It's like telling gays that if they want marriage rights, they should run for Congress and change it themselves. No, what's needed is for us heterosexuals to stand up and help effect change. If the majority just tells the minority to "change it yourself" how can anything get done?

Awfully tough to do that when there aren't many women in the industry. Congress has become more empathetic of women because A) women are in congress more than ever and B) congressmen are around congresswomen more often now. Its hard to be empathetic of someone you don't have regular contact with in a working setting.

You're selling men short by suggesting it's really hard for them to be empathetic to women.

I also find it weird that you point out congressmen are around congresswomen more often now... I'm sure these congressmen already had plenty of women in their lives. Wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, cousins, friends, etc.
 
Somehow everyone was okay with all the torture in the Metal Gear Solid series, perhaps because it was mostly male on male torture?

During War times torture is more common. Hell, scientific experiments done on humans from WW2 went on to found the Nuremberg Code. It's more common to see in Kojima's work since he tries to mix fantasy with warfare. I do not judge his work to begin with.
 
Somehow everyone was okay with all the torture in the Metal Gear Solid series, perhaps because it was mostly male on male torture?

maybe because you are the victim, not the perpetrator
anyways, you can let people starve to death in The Sims! that's even worse!
 
I don't know why he used Berserk to argue his point considering that Miura routinely draws descriptive violent rape panels that are blatantly there to titillate some readers.

I had actually been able to forget about most of those myself until right now lol

Oh god the trolls.....
 
So the two are exclusive of each other? If I make a few snide comments in a thread full of snide comments then I've completely given up trying to have an intelligent dialogue as well?

If you're actually serious about elevating the discussion, why don't you read my post (here it is in case you can't be assed to find it) and respond to that instead of trying to discredit me?

I was not triying to discredit you (because I actually liked your post) but I think the snide high horse remarks rarely improve the discussions. As one poster was also giving his honest opinion, without being snarky or offensive.
 
Not going to go into how the only positive option here is 'being a man'... yeah, I'll avoid it.

But let's look at a film like Boys Don't Cry. It won a truckload of awards and isn't considered trash.

There's difference in depicting rape in entertainment and using rape as entertainment.

I wasn't speaking to the women in here. They are right, and they know they're right.

I was speaking to the boys who are peevishly defending a throwaway video game in the face of something larger and more important than casual entertainment.

The idea that men should protect and respect women may be inherently sexist. But it's my kind of sexism. I'll err on the side of chivalry against violence against women all day long.
 
Um... I haven't played Hotline Miami but I've seen videos. The violence appears to be over-the-top, cartoony and border-line ridiculous. Is that a fair assessment?

Yes, but it's not a barrier from all criticism.

Article said:
The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency. My agency has been removed not only from Pig Butcher, but agency was never given to the woman I now identify with – not even AI. Your arsenal has expanded. Hotline Miami manages to convey seediness well in two dimensions. The colour palette’s the same, too.

....

Pig Butcher drops his trousers, and the director at the side of the screen yells “cut”. “Pig Man, well done, but don’t be afraid to be rougher. And you there, blondie – you need to work on your femininity. Act more helpless and scared. You know, more girly.”

But this framing comes too late. Hotline Miami 2 has already used her for shock and power. Videogame women don’t get very many other roles to play but the helpless damsel. I played the rest of the excellently constructed murder simulator demo in silence, and left feeling uncertain of why I was so upset. It was because I was manipulated.

I think this is the most interesting part of the article, and also the most important. The scene in question is absolutely meant to be shocking, and is supposed to speak more about the depravity of the characters and situation you are stuck in rather than being about a cheap thrill.

At least, I'd hope. The problem is that, on paper, this is actually quite a powerful scene; there's a film out right now that actually has a very similar conceit in its trailer. You should check it out, it's called The Act of Killing. In the film, actors are directed by real warlords in a film about their conquests, and scenes of horrific violence are punctuated by the happy (or otherwise emotionally distant) warlords as they end the scene and talk to their actors. It's surreal, uncomfortable, and shocking. It does not make me feel good.

Cara Ellison makes similar remarks about the Hotline Miami sequence.

it starts to make me feel incredibly hypocritical: you liked the violence, I think. You liked, as the game says, hurting people. Why do you feel ugly now, for playing a game where your character rapes a woman? It isn’t even graphic, but implied.

This is a pretty complex emotion for a video game to evoke, especially intentionally. Lots of games butcher their portrayals of women in distress on accident; Hotline Miami appears to be doing it with laser-accurate purpose. This scene is supposed to be horrifying and conflicting. This is territory - not the subject matter per se, but the emotional weight and internal reflection - that books, films, music, and practically all other art forms occupy on the regular, but video games still have trouble with.

Still, there's a reason video games don't offer this sort of conflict often. For one thing, video games are interactive and are typically built around rewarding the player for doing, which makes things like rape scenes an even tougher sell than they would be in a film. Second of all, there's the undeniable fact that video game writers are immensely stupid. Video games are stupid. The best written video games are lauded for having merely competent stories, because the people writing them did their best to stretch their knowledge of Robert McKee's Story to fit a twelve hour experience instead of a two hour one. Video games, for the most part, have terrible stories told by semi-competent writers, and any attempt to approach an actually difficult topic is typically handled with the grace of a man with two literal hams for hands. Video game writing sucks.

Hotline Miami's writing sucks, too, which makes this scene feel even more out of left field. The pieces are all there - in my brain I think this is supposed to be a scene about the way women are treated in this gangland culture, this is supposed to be a commentary on violence in video games, this is supposed to bring player agency into question - but at the same time, the scene doesn't work for me. I watch it and think "this is tasteless." This is the same team that gave us a nonsensical ripoff of Drive last year, where every character spoke in spooky, edgy one-liners that sound like they belong in straight-to-DVD Boondock Saints sequels.

So... yeah. I understand what they were trying to do with this scene. I think. I hope, at the very least. That's the problem; Hotline Miami is not a unified artistic statement. This scene feels like a squeamish semicolon between more video game levels. I wouldn't tell them "this scene needs to go," but I think they should be prepared for more negative reactions like PC Gamer's. They should probably at least revisit the scene. They should probably think about whether Hotline Miami is really an appropriate venue for such show-stopping commentary, or if they're just trying to be developer punks who don't give a fuck. Cara Ellison is not the only person who is going to feel like shit because of this scene. And that's okay - not all art has to make people feel good. It's alright to look at a game/film/book's subject matter and think "this is not a safe space for me." But is that what the Hotline Miami devs want a good chunk of their audience to do? Do they have something truly interesting to say, or is this just a throwaway scene that'll make people feel like shit?
 
It always kind of makes me laugh and is sadly ironic the false dichotomy between what is "acceptable" between mediums. Films have had BRUTAL rape scenes for years, nobody blinks an eye, books have described in rich detail the nature of sadism and rape and torture. Nobody really makes a fuss. But if a game does it...well, different story.

Are you fucking serious?

There is plenty of opposition to rape in all forms of media. Some knee jerk. Some well thought out. But there is plenty.

If you choose to ignore that opposition and laugh about a twisted belief that "nobody blinks an eye" or that "nobody really makes a fuss" about rape in other media, then that's your fault.



Just thinking out loud here....

I'd really recommend against that at this point.
 
Isn't it just more likely you're more tuned into games news and criticism than film criticism? There's no shortage of criticism of how rape is portrayed in any medium.

I would also argue, gaming culture is a lot more interwoven with internet culture. That the gaming industry and gamers are a lot more integrated into it, so we are more likely to hear about criticisms than we would from those other mediums. Although you are right, it stands within reason that you are generally more likely to hear about stuff that you care about.

That said, we can't ignore the fact that, gaming does have a stigma. Because you are controlling the character, because it's interactive, there is more criticism thrown at gaming with regards to how storytelling uses violence (compared to Film/Books - which is seen more as a passive medium).
Not saying that this is the case with this article. Just speaking in general.
 
Like I say, I haven't played the game before. Any examples?

Obviously, this one hasn't come out yet, but I'm trying to get my head around the context of the scene and whether it was a case of escalation or whether there is a point to it.

You murder shittons of people in ridiculously violent and horrendous ways just because you're told to.

It's all fun and games when until you clear out a room, the music stops and turns into creepy ambience as you walk through dozens of corpses that are all your handiwork. The game is designed to make you feel uncomfortable for enjoying yourself.

All that said, the reactions about the rape scene that's being depicted indicates that it wasn't a very respectable one, and the devs missed the mark on it.
 
I hope the developer sticks to his guns. While the scene is (presumably) completely despicable and makes people feel like complete garbage for playing it, I also feel that is the entire point of the game. I strongly doubt the game glorifies rape or anything like that, it's just a position that should make anyone uncomfortable, which in my book a game has every right to do.

Honestly, it's a bit jarring how games are seemingly not allowed to push these limits while other media is pretty much expected to. I guess the interactive nature of games makes it a different case in that sense, but still. It just seems to be that old "games are supposed to be fun! (and nothing more)" mentality that colors people's expectations. While Hotline Miami clearly is a game that features aspects of entertainment (high score-based gameplay etc) it doesn't, in my opinion, disqualify it from being social commentary/art/whatever simultaneously. And if viewed from the latter perspective, I honestly see no issue with the game exploring such concepts, however displeasurable they may be to the player.

It's not *that* you do it, but how you do it. And upon reading through the thread, I've come to the conclusion that it's like using an offensive slur, or re-enacting a gay-bashing or something similar. You can argue that murder is worse, but ultimately, either it's something that we're desensitized to, or it's the fact that it can happen to all of us.

Though I'll also say that there are certain types of murder that aren't accepted either. Not many people would play a game where you go out and murder a bunch of children or elderly, and certainly not a bunch of innocents in a movie theater. Certainly not now. Obviously these things do happen in the real world, but there are some levels of darkness that we as a society simply won't touch.

I'll end with this - I remember at some point, someone was talking about rape in a comic - after the villain's plans were ruined, he took it out on one of the heroines. It wasn't fully shown, but it wasn't glorified in any way. The "Finish Her" and "Cut" don't particularly treat the subject with respect. There are other ways rape can be depicted in a video game - and in a serious manner - but certainly not that way.
 
Everyone has a right to feel whatever they feel, but I simply cannot bring myself to ever feel sorry for what happens to pixels on a screen. I simply don't give a fuck. A game would have to really go all out with full Naughty Dog quality storytelling (at a minimum) and pull all kinds of Marley and Me style emotional strings before I could give two shits. Something tells me this doesn't happen in Hotline Miami.
 
It always kind of makes me laugh and is sadly ironic the false dichotomy between what is "acceptable" between mediums. Films have had BRUTAL rape scenes for years, nobody blinks an eye, books have described in rich detail the nature of sadism and rape and torture. Nobody really makes a fuss. But if a game does it...well, different story.

Just thinking out loud here....

People do blink an eye and people do make a fuss about those scenes and passages. There is just an understanding in those mediums that there messages and emotions can be delivered that aren't just sensations of happiness and fun. They have a history of making people feel a range of emotions.

It's chilling for these types of themes and experiences to occur in games, because as the author of the article talked about, games are seen as a safe space to her and many.

I'm happy that game makers are trying to do more than just satisfy people and make them feel good about themselves. Sometimes it's okay for art to make you think and even make you feel like a piece of shit. Not every character has to fit into a perfect world, some world views, especially in the criminal world, are dark and disturbing.

I think that games should be able to reflect the society around us. They should be able to exist in fantasy. I disagree with critics that say a game is bad or marks off games because they think a character is a piece of shit or the maker didn't give them an option to not be evil. That's just my opinion. Just as a critic has one.
 
It always kind of makes me laugh and is sadly ironic the false dichotomy between what is "acceptable" between mediums. Films have had BRUTAL rape scenes for years, nobody blinks an eye, books have described in rich detail the nature of sadism and rape and torture. Nobody really makes a fuss. But if a game does it...well, different story.

Just thinking out loud here....

Player agency means that we think differently about these kinds of matters when it comes to games. Watching a villain commit an atrocity on a screen is experientially very different than actually controlling him as he commits the same act. I understand that the scene in question in this thread actually takes control from the player, but I'd have to play it to know exactly to what degree the player has control of the rape.

I also think that it's very interesting that the 'rape' in question is just a part of a movie, which seems to make it okay. While it's immediately jarring and graphic, the "CUT" transition lets the players know that it's all okay, they're just in a movie.

I wonder if this is an intentional commentary on the fact that rape is a very taboo subject in video games, but well accepted within film.

If anything, I think that maybe the creators are trying to say that the initial reaction you have to the rape might be more valid than the hand-waving dismissal once you find out it's "just" a movie. Maybe they're asking why rape isn't more controversial in films.
 
It always kind of makes me laugh and is sadly ironic the false dichotomy between what is "acceptable" between mediums. Films have had BRUTAL rape scenes for years, nobody blinks an eye, books have described in rich detail the nature of sadism and rape and torture. Nobody really makes a fuss. But if a game does it...well, different story.

Just thinking out loud here....

Film and literature often contain rape scenes, sure, but they're almost exclusively used to the effect of making the reader/viewer uncomfortable. Outside of pornography you'll never see a rapist glorified on film. No studio would be willing to do that.

Having played the first Hotline Miami, I think it's safe to say that this the intended effect it also to make the player feel horrified with he actions they're doing. However, video games are still testing the waters with the subject of rape, and it's a very narrow line to walk. Rape is a delicate subject, and we must be able to criticize the games that handle it inappropriately if the medium is to be taken seriously when utilizing serious subject matter.
 
Awfully tough to do that when there aren't many women in the industry. Congress has become more empathetic of women because A) women are in congress more than ever and B) congressmen are around congresswomen more often now. Its hard to be empathetic of someone you don't have regular contact with in a working setting.

No it isn't. Men are surrounded by women every day. The idea that you can only empathise with a group you work with is ridiculous and just a get out of jail card.

Also, this shouldn't be something limited to your job. Men need to start taking rape more seriously in general.
 
Not all art is meant to make you feel good.

If you complete Hotline Miami properly there is a strange explanation given for all of the violence, but most players will just see the standard ending where the reasoning given is entirely nihilistic. It's basically a spiritual successor to the Manhunt series, which made no apologies when it grabbed the player by the back of the head and rubbed their face in the horrifying things they were doing.

Someone mentioned Gaspar Noe earlier, and it's a fairly apt comparison. The rape scene in Irreversible is one of the most horrendous things I've ever watched, and the way the film plays with the audience's sense of morality and notions of heroism and villainy are quite similarly explored in Hotline Miami. The author of the preview linked in the OP is more or less experiencing the sensation the creators intended, albeit far more personally because of her gender, but the same could be said for Irreversible.

I'm really not sure how I feel about it, to be honest. On the one hand, it's not intended to serve as a means of titillation. On the other hand, it's exploitative no matter what the intent. I'm actually glad that there's a discussion taking place about it, because it's good to reflect on what we're asked to do in games at times.
 
Somehow everyone was okay with all the torture in the Metal Gear Solid series, perhaps because it was mostly male on male torture?

That torture scene
where Snake gets tortured
(along with "The End's" boss battle) is part of what makes MGS3 one of the best games ever made. When I played it (it was my first MGS), it was so unexpected and raw that it just drew me in that much more. Outstanding. The same goes for rape in video games. Its a terrible thing, but because its so bad it can draw you in and ultimately make a better game. That's why I defend its portrayal here.
 
People get raped in film/movies often and it's described as "powerful" or "moving" or "breathtaking cinema" or whatever.

Pixels on a screen have an implied rape scene? Outrage?

I mean this IS Hotline Miami...are we sure it's implied rape and not murder?

What the fuck am I even typing!?
 
I never said it couldn't do the same. I'm just saying watching a simulated rape scene is one thing, it's another to engage in a simulated rape scene.

Well that's what makes an interactive medium such a powerful storytelling experience, interactivity.
 
I'm surprised no one else has seemed to mention the other...questionable aspect of the scene:

Pig Butcher drops his trousers, and the director at the side of the screen yells “cut”. “Pig Man, well done, but don’t be afraid to be rougher. And you there, blondie – you need to work on your femininity. Act more helpless and scared. You know, more girly.”
So, apparently, the player character is not only making a fake rape film, but is working for a director who is explicitly misogynist. Given how the game is apparently about making the player question his motives for playing and going along with the premise, the point of this scene might be to make the player question whether he should be working for such a person, and what it says about his own attitudes toward women if he does.
 
I don't know how to feel about this. On one hand, it is a subject that shouldn't be treated lightly and I can certainly understand and emphatize with the backlash. On the other hand this is a game about a mental patient ruthlessly killing everyone he meets because someone else told him to do it;, which he does with a buttload of gore. It says something about society when there is no backlash against that violence, but there is one about rape which to me sounds like it would perfectly within the abhorrent violent behaviour of the main character. After playing the original this seems like what the main character of that game could do to a female. I think it fits better within the context compared to the guy only killing males and protecting the lone female he encounters.

Here's something I hadn't considered yet.

Is the movie they're making in HLM2 supposed to be an adaptation of the events of HLM1?

Because that could be interesting and cast whole new shades of light on the scene.
 
10 years ago no one would of made a big deal out of this and I bet this game ships with it too. I think games are being put under a spotlight regardless of this ill received scene. Hollywood went through this once and their depictions of rape are much worse. Many people would argue the first amendment rights and I think even if something is distasteful than there's always going to be someone out there fighting for or against it. Do I like this scene? No Do I think it should be in there? No.

This is a 2D sprite looking like he's raping someone. This doesn't mean if you buy this you adore or accept rape culture. Movies commit worse in terms of gore and sexual crimes. Shouldn't they be put under the same spotlight?
 
It's not *that* you do it, but how you do it. And upon reading through the thread, I've come to the conclusion that it's like using an offensive slur, or re-enacting a gay-bashing or something similar. You can argue that murder is worse, but ultimately, either it's something that we're desensitized to, or it's the fact that it can happen to all of us.

No, but you see - that's exactly what I'm saying. Within the context of the game and what type of people the characters are, you wouldn't expect them to treat the subject with the respect - they are murderers and rapists with zero remorse. Why does there need to be a tactful way of doing it in a game like this? It's a brutally horrific subject and should, in my opinion, have a right to be represented as such. It's like the racism in Bioshock Infinite - at least the way it started out (and I was hoping it would continue, but it kind of just petered out). It's represented in a way that is realistic compared to real life, and I think games should have the right to represent real life should they want to, without having to "sugar coat" the subject or whatever.
 
Like I say, I haven't played the game before. Any examples?

Obviously, this one hasn't come out yet, but I'm trying to get my head around the context of the scene and whether it was a case of escalation or whether there is a point to it.

Well that would be spoiling it now wouldn't it? It's a great game worth playing through.

But if you insist here are some examples:
hotline-miami-05.png

Hotline-Miami-Intro%5B1%5D.jpg

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hotlinemiami3.jpg

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Watch this and notice at around 7:09 how the music suddenly stops and a creepy ambiance starts when he finished the level and he is forced to walk back to the car and witness the massacre and carnage he is responsible for. Also notice the strange phonecalls he gets before each mission in a very indirect way ordering him to perform these murders. Who are these people, why does he get these phonecalls and most importantly why does he do it without a single question?

There's a bit more but I don't want to spoil everything.
 
I was not triying to discredit you (because I actually liked your post) but I think the snide high horse remarks rarely improve the discussions. As one poster was also giving his honest opinion, without being snarky or offensive.

I see your point.

But I reserve the right to snark.
 
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