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[Screaming Meat]

You murder shittons of people in ridiculously violent and horrendous ways just because you're told to.

It's all fun and games when until you clear out a room, the music stops and turns into creepy ambience as you walk through dozens of corpses that are all your handiwork. The game is designed to make you feel uncomfortable for enjoying yourself.

All that said, the reactions about the rape scene that's being depicted indicates that it wasn't a very respectable one, and the devs missed the mark on it.

I'm getting that impression. Were they trying to be funny? Were they trying to be controversial? Did they have thematic point they were making? Was it a case of escalation? I can't see why they put it in. I guess I won't till I play it.

Well that would be spoiling it now wouldn't it? It's a great game worth playing through.

But if you insist here are some examples:


Watch this and notice at around 7:09 how the music suddenly stops and a creepy ambiance starts when he finished the level and he is forced to walk back to the car and witness the massacre and carnage he is responsible for.

Thanks for this. So it is pretty clear they are trying to make a point with the violence (actually, it looks like a lot of fun... uh oh). I wonder how the sexual violence at the end of the tutorial would tie into that, especially since it is made out to be a movie. Wouldn't that whole "it's just a movie" schtick negate the previous game's point?

 

[CaptainGyro]

So rape is sexual content, not violent content? I see.

You are reading too much into it

 

[Northeastmonk]

Yet the same people who point this out are also getting a game next month where you run over pedestrians and hookers with cars. What a way to challenge the medium guys! This side is completely hypocritical in all regards.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

No offense, but it would be nice to not have personal feelings attached to rape but I don't have that privilege.

But seriously, is it that hard to believe that rape scenes (of the rape of a woman) in most medium (written by men) might not exactly be very good depictions about the subject?

Eh, I'm going to say this and I don't want to sound offensive or insensitive, because my point is not to dismiss for the sake of it:

Is hard to believe that there another persons of different genders with way different perspectives that would laugh at your statement of "Never done right"? Because you are not the judge of touchy issues in media in general? That many if not all of my female classmates in collage (studying Iberoamerican Literature) will raise a eyebrow at that generalizations whatever evn they feel about author responsability (as many of them will say: Don't care, fair game (and other will say actually think about it)). And yes, we have this discussion fair often.

 

[Defect]

I see nothing wrong. It's a videogame.

 

[freenudemacusers]

People get raped in film/movies often and it's described as "powerful" or "moving" or "breathtaking cinema" or whatever.

Pixels on a screen have an implied rape scene? Outrage?

I mean this IS Hotline Miami...are we sure it's implied rape and not murder?

What the fuck am I even typing!?

one what planet is this the case? were you asleep when irreversible was released? or the hills have eyes? last house on the left? I spit on your grave? Do I need to keep listing movies?

 

[JABEE]

I'm surprised no one else has seemed to mention the other...questionable aspect of the scene:


So, apparently, the player character is not only making a fake rape film, but is working for a director who is explicitly misogynist. Given how the game is apparently about making the player question his motives for playing and going along with the premise, the point of this scene might be to make the player question whether he should be working for such a person, and what it says about his own attitudes toward women if he does.

The author of the article was making the point that the cut didn't come soon enough and that they felt manipulated and uncomfortable because of how long it took to reach that line of dialogue.

She justified her criticism of the scene even with the context. My disagreement pairing this scene and what it attempts with the TvW films and their dissection of systemic ignorance within the industry of how to portray gender roles. In this case and the case of Last of Us, there was care taken in how to portray the event and how it worked within the themes of the game.

 

[Pau]

I'm getting that impression. Were they trying to be funny? Were they trying to be controversial? Did they have thematic point they were making? Was it a case of escalation? I can't see why they put it in. I guess I won't till I play it.

Cymbal Head made a post which is the best explanation for an actually thoughtful reason for including such a scene.

Eh, I'm going to say this and I don't want to sound offensive or insensitive, because my point is not to dismiss for the sake of it:

Is hard to believe that there another persons of different genders with way different perspectives that would laugh at your statement of "Never done right"? Because you are not the judge of touchy issues in media in general? That many if not all of my female classmates in collage (studying Iberoamerican Literature) will raise a eyebrow at that generalizations whatever evn they feel about author responsability (as many of them will say: Don't care, fair game (and other will say actually think about it)). And yes, we have this discussion fair often.

There's a reason I said to take it to PM: because I don't think I am the judge of touchy issues in media and I didn't want to further derail the thread with it. If anything, you're painting me as acting as such when I'm not, and that's kind of offensive, yeah. I merely stated that I personally don't see such scenes written well very often. I made no mention of author responsibility. Is it hard to believe that maybe I hold a lot of writing (not just that involving rape) to a pretty high standard and I think most of it can be utter shit?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

You are reading too much into it

Actually no, that was the correct response to that post. You can't dismiss this as a symptom of the backwards American attitudes towards sex and violence, because it's not about the fact that the content is sexual. Rape isn't an act of sexuality, it's an act of dominance and violence.

 

[Kinyou]

Brains splattered all over the wall = No problem

Rape scene = BAN this shit.

My mind=blown.

I think the actual difference is that in certain instances our culture is completely okay with murder. For a soldier is it okay to kill, as is it for the guy who works in the deathrow.

You wont find government sanctioned rape in our culture.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Isn't it just more likely you're more tuned into games news and criticism than film criticism? There's no shortage of criticism of how rape is portrayed in any medium.

There's a vast difference though in how it gets objectified and eventually released as is. Yes, films and books and banned all the time, but you can still get them through means of the INET in Uncut fashion.

The difference is, writers and film makers of that sort for the most part do not give two fucks about what the community, critics or anybody else thinks. They make the art THEY WANT. Games are different so far, always willing to cut a little content here or there to appease the overthinking whiners or for better sales.

Personally, and this is just me, if I worked on Hotline Miami 2 I'd extend the scene or make it more disturbing just for the fuck of it, and basically tell anybody who doesn't like it to not buy it and fuck off back to dixie. Because there has to come a point, where game developers in spite of massive criticism stand there ground as did hundreds of writers and filmmakers. Even if banned, they need to stand their ground. Otherwise, we'll always be susceptible to other people's opinions as artists.

 

[freenudemacusers]

The difference is, writers and film makers of that sort for the most part do not give two fucks about what the community, critics or anybody else thinks. They make the art THEY WANT.

I don't think this is true at all.

 

[The Hermit]

For those who haven't seen it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beUrlDwf56w&t=1m5s

Personally I don't see the problem. The music stops and the creepy music that comes when you finish a level starts playing. You're supposed to be disgusted pretty much, until you hear the "cut" from the director, signifying that you're on a set filming a movie.

It's not glorified or anything at all.

I sure was... you shot her with a shotgun and rape her while she is crawling on the floor almost dead.

Anyway, HM was a game made to make you feel... ill.
That music, the blood, the gameplay... it all wasn't by accident.

 

[Sneds]

You wont find government sanctioned rape in our culture.

You will actually. Perhaps not in theory but in practice. Rape isn't taken as seriously as it should be by criminal justice and the conviction level is very low.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Cymbal Head made a post which is the best explanation for an actually thoughtful reason for including such a scene.

You were right...

I applaud Cara for being honest and reflective in her article.

Obviously, people have every right to be grossed out, put-off, or offended by the scene in question. They are free not to play the game if they choose, and they are free to voice their opinions and concerns. Likewise, the creators are free to make what they want, and to respond or not respond to outside criticism as they choose.

But I think that Dennaton might be doing something interesting with the way this scene is presented. Here's your player character, the one you're naturally going to share some kind of identification with, even if he's committing morally outrageous acts. You're presumably OK with killing as the player character -- that much is more or less the up-front contract you make with the game going in. Then, you get to the end of the level, and suddenly the player character is committing rape. You might be disgusted; you might be offended; you might start to think about why you find this act unacceptable, despite being OK with brutal murder. You might feel betrayed because rape wasn't part of the contract. (It might be now that the scene is being publicized so much, but let's say for the sake of the argument you don't already know about it.)

Then the director yells "CUT." Turns out it was fiction within the fiction. How do you feel now? Is rape all of a sudden OK because it was "not real"? Do your feelings of being grossed out, put-off, or offended magically dissolve because of a framing device? Or are they still there? Is committing rape acceptable when it's in a movie in a game but not when it's just in a game? I would guess that anybody who has a negative reaction to the rape scene will not be instantly appeased when they see it's not a real fictional rape. What does that say about the nature of the act? Alternatively, if you're all of a sudden cool with it, what does that say about our willingness to accept flimsy justifications for abhorrent acts?

It's possible that Dennaton are making a sharp statement about entertainment, vicarious gratification, and our conflicting impulses to just enjoy something versus truly examining what it means. It's also possible that they're just controversy-seeking blowhards who happen to make fun fucking games.

...that IS a very interesting and thoughtful post.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Actually no, that was the correct response to that post. You can't dismiss this as a symptom of the backwards American attitudes towards sex and violence, because it's not about the fact that the content is sexual. Rape isn't an act of sexuality, it's an act of dominance and violence.

Nowhere did he indicate that rape isn't an act of violence.

 

[Vermillion]

No, but you see - that's exactly what I'm saying. Within the context of the game and what type of people the characters are, you wouldn't expect them to treat the subject with the respect - they are murderers and rapists with zero remorse. Why does there need to be a tactful way of doing it in a game like this? It's a brutally horrific subject and should, in my opinion, have a right to be represented as such. It's like the racism in Bioshock Infinite - at least the way it started out (and I was hoping it would continue, but it kind of just petered out). It's represented in a way that is realistic compared to real life, and I think games should have the right to represent real life should they want to, without having to "sugar coat" the subject or whatever.

Basically this:

Except it is sugar coated.

And the manner in which it is sugar-coated only shows that they aren't treating the subject seriously at all. Furthermore, upon reflection I've realized that even games like Spec Ops: The Line don't have any real goal to their messages. People are going to play the game like "I'm a monster!" But then they'll go back to murder more people in the next game just because they were told or just because they feel like it. I mean, perhaps they think about it more, but to what end? A commentary on murder as it relates to videogames is useless. A commentary on murder as it relates to the player, real life and/or to the story of the game would be far more effective in considering every day life, and while videogames can do that, they rarely do. A commentary on rape as it relates to videogames as it relates to a fake movie... that's pretty much useless.

 

[ArynCrinn]

I don't think this is true at all.

How so, when game development has a storied history of cutting content due to controversy.

 

[DexterPepper]

Games are different so far, always willing to cut a little content here or there to appease the overthinking whiners or for better sales.

Yet they did sugar coat it. Yet they included the scene in a preview build. I think it's reasonable to assume they expected backlash but still wanted to get a sense of the magnitude.

And I don't see how you think people "don't bat an eye" at rape depictions in other mediums.

 

[Zaventem]

Also i rewatched the video. Where's the "Finish Her" part? Am i blind or something? I swear writing shit to mislead people, shit that's not even in the damn game is another incredibly common thing in video game journalism.

 

[freenudemacusers]

How so, when game development has a storied history of cutting content due to controversy.

I was responding to the idea that filmmakers or writers don't at all care about the audience they are creating for.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Nowhere did he indicate that rape isn't an act of violence.

The original post claimed that the outrage was because of the sexual aspect, when it's not. Hence this is not symptomatic of American morality as they view it. Which is what I just said.

 

[DexterPepper]

Also i rewatched the video. Where's the "Finish Her" part? Am i blind or something? I swear writing shit to mislead people, shit that's not even in the damn game is another incredibly common thing in video game journalism.

I fell for this. Read the article before watching the video, which was definitely a mistake.

 

[canedaddy]

Yet the same people who point this out are also getting a game next month where you run over pedestrians and hookers with cars. What a way to challenge the medium guys! This side is completely hypocritical in all regards.

So hookers aren't pedestrians? So unenlightened...

 

[ArynCrinn]

Yet they did sugar coat it. Yet they included the scene in a preview build. I think it's reasonable to assume they expected backlash but still wanted to get a sense of the magnitude.

And I don't see how you think people "don't bat an eye" at rape depictions in other mediums.

Point me to a outcry of this magnitude for the film Irreversible.

 

[Screaming Meat]

How so, when game development has a storied history of cutting content due to controversy.

What, films and books don't?!

Point me to a outcry of this magnitude for the film Irreversible.

What magnitude? A thread on NeoGAF and a thoughtful preview of the game? Heard of Baise Moi?

 

[GuardianE]

Interesting impressions

I always felt like the amateurish dialogue in Hotline Miami was almost on purpose- mostly because what was said never really mattered. The game's words were the weakest form of communication when you consider the music, sounds, colors, and pace. Maybe I'm being too generous, but it was disturbing in its own way. It felt unsettling, and worked for me.

I think that Hotline Miami deliberately tried to evoke thoughts of self-reflection. Not everyone will get that out of their experience with the game, but I think it's there. And honestly, I've never subscribed to the idea that author's intent is all that important. If a message rings loudly, even out of mere coincidence, it's still there.

I can't watch the scene right now, and I don't think I even want to because I'm going to be buying the game eventually anyway. But I fully expect to feel awful and torn, and that's what I want.

 

[DecoyOctopus]

Good ol' 'MURICA. Blowing heads, limbs and entrails off is A-OK, but any sort of sexual content is a crime against humanity.

I like how descriptive you were for the violence side, but "violent rape initiated by the player character on a female they just critically wounded" is reduced to nondescript "sexual content"

Good ol'....you?

Great post Retro!

 

[Salsa]

I get most of these arguments and I mostly agree, specially with xander cage

that said, I just kinda wanna be grossed out by Hotline Miami as much as I can. It goes against a lot of things i'd consider appropiate but for some weird reason it exists in this little bubble where I just want to feel physically dirty while playing. First game had that sort of impact on me after playing for so long and getting caught in a loop. It was interesting.

 

[Mr.Monitor]

You wont find government sanctioned rape in our culture.

I dunno, man. While it isn't government sanctioned, people seem to accept that if you go to prison, you'll probably get raped. A lot of people even believe that it comes with the territory and that the criminals deserve it. I don't really know what to make of that.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Point me to a outcry of this magnitude for the film Irreversible.

you mean one article and a forum thread discussing the rape scene? Do you really want me to link every single discussion regarding the rape scene in irreversible, the movie that people walked out the cannes premiere? that movie?

 

[ArynCrinn]

I was responding to the idea that filmmakers or writers don't at all care about the audience they are creating for.

Marquis De Sade certainly didn't care about his audience, I doubt Takashi Miike does much either. As I can prove with the commentary for Visitor Q.

 

[DexterPepper]

Point me to a outcry of this magnitude for the film Irreversible.

Find it for yourself. I believe there's website devoted to compiling various film reviews on a single page.

 

[Cymbal Head]

Hotline Miami's writing sucks, too, which makes this scene feel even more out of left field. The pieces are all there - in my brain I think this is supposed to be a scene about the way women are treated in this gangland culture, this is supposed to be a commentary on violence in video games, this is supposed to bring player agency into question - but at the same time, the scene doesn't work for me. I watch it and think "this is tasteless." This is the same team that gave us a nonsensical ripoff of Drive last year, where every character spoke in spooky, edgy one-liners that sound like they belong in straight-to-DVD Boondock Saints sequels.

So... yeah. I understand what they were trying to do with this scene. I think. I hope, at the very least. That's the problem; Hotline Miami is not a unified artistic statement. This scene feels like a squeamish semicolon between more video game levels...They should probably think about whether Hotline Miami is really an appropriate venue for such show-stopping commentary, or if they're just trying to be developer punks who don't give a fuck...Do they have something truly interesting to say, or is this just a throwaway scene that'll make people feel like shit?

I'm starting to wonder if I'm giving Dennaton too much credit and treating this as something with far more artistic intent than it actually has, basically for the reasons you've outlined.

But then again...

That's exactly what it is, actually.

I wish I wasn't at work so I had more time to digest this and articulate my own point of view, but right now I think it suffices to point out that whoever's making the "movie" in HLM2 has maybe changed "jacket rescues a woman" to "jacket rapes a woman"--this is starting to feel more and more like a commentary on cinema.

Movies commit worse in terms of gore and sexual crimes. Shouldn't they be put under the same spotlight?

As other have mentioned, they are in certain venues. It's just that this is a video game forum.

 

[Northeastmonk]

So hookers aren't pedestrians? So unenlightened...

You can't pay all pedestrians to have sex with you in your car can you? I guess every NPC is there for a reason. The gamers gods and his disciples have spoken!

Oh I know what type of forum this is. Trust me. You can look at all my replies to posts just for a reference tool.

 

[ArynCrinn]

you mean one article and a forum thread discussing the rape scene?

ANY article discussing it would apply.

Find it for yourself. I believe there's website devoted to compiling various film reviews on a single page.

You where the genius asking, chief.

 

[Kazerei]

How so, when game development has a storied history of cutting content due to controversy.

There is plenty of criticism, controversy, and cutting in films, TV, etc...

Point me to a outcry of this magnitude for the film Irreversible.

"of this magnitude"? This is small potatoes.

 

[canedaddy]

You can't pay all pedestrians to have sex with you in your car can you?

They're still human beings!

 

[The Hermit]

btw in the occidental culture as far as I know rape is much worse than murder.

Irreversible is the only movie that I know that has rape as the main subject while there are countless movies where murder and death as the main theme.

Even in prison rapers are considered human scum by the other criminals

 

[JABEE]

I think the actual difference is that in certain instances our culture is completely okay with murder. For a soldier is it okay to kill, as is it for the guy who works in the deathrow.

You wont find government sanctioned rape in our culture.

It's also not like it is hard to find people that are unfamiliar with games or horror/action films who are disgusted by violence of any kind that is being portrayed.

There are plenty of people who refuse to play video games because all they "are all about violence anymore." You shut those people off from playing games. You are pushing them away from playing games, but you do it anyway because it is what you want to make. It is the game you want to make and it explores the themes and emotions you want to delve into.

It's the same thing that is happening in this instance. There is a betrayal of what she felt these games were. She was fine with violence, but sexual violence being performed by her character crossed a line. She no longer felt a deep connection with the game. She has a right to voice that opinion and be turned off by it.

It's just rare to find this kind of attitude towards certain subjects in the enthusiast games press. Most are okay with violence. As games become explore more and more themes, there are going to be splintered off sections of people who will not feel included anymore.

I do think it's like people who would listen to the radio when soft rock and pop music ruled the air-ways only to be disenfranchised by the fact that more Hip-Hop oriented programming was on the airwaves filled with misogyny and violence. I don't know where I'm going, but I think she has the right to say that she disliked it, but I think there is room for games to go beyond just safe places for us to have fun.

I'm sorry if I'm annoying going through my thoughts on this. I think my first post was misinterpreted in some ways and I'm trying to go through my reasoning.

 

[andymcc]

Marquis De Sade certainly didn't care about his audience, I doubt Takashi Miike does much either. As I can prove with the commentary for Visitor Q.

Takashi Miike made Visitor Q on a budget for a pink direct-to-video company. it's essentially porn (Takashi Miike, on record, gets many production tips from porn directors/managers). I don't think you're really making a good case.

 

[Northeastmonk]

They're still human beings!

Gamer God made every NPC with a sole purpose in mind. We may not understand it, but its there.

 

[DexterPepper]

You where the genius asking, chief.

If you say so.

 

[Salsa]

I also thing people sorta put this voice into the game that to me was never there to begin with. Game is not greatly written nor is it super clever or anything. I think its important to discuss what gets out there but I bet even the devs are surprised at people taking this so seriously and interpreting it beyond "this game is just gross"

it reminds me of people saying the new Mortal Kombat is too violent

I mean, well yeah..

 

[freenudemacusers]

ANY article discussing it would apply.

seriously dude? two seconds of google:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/movies/2003/03/irreversible_errors.html

Marquis De Sade certainly didn't care about his audience, I doubt Takashi Miike does much either. As I can prove with the commentary for Visitor Q.

maybe the marquis de sade (is this really the example you want?) but since visitor q wasn't edited by miike, it seems he does care about what other people think.

 

[ArynCrinn]

There is plenty of criticism, controversy, and cutting in films, TV, etc...



"of this magnitude"? This is small potatoes.

I agree, this whole HM2 thing is small potatoes.

 

[Screaming Meat]

ANY article discussing it would apply.

“Irreversible,” the film that’s been pissing off audiences around the world, has been picked up by Lions Gate for a limited NC-17 U.S. release sometime next year.
This acquisition took place shortly before the controversial film screened this month at the Toronto International Film Festival where director Gaspar Noe was said to have attended, escorted by guards. Good move on his part as previous screenings of “Irreversible” have left audience members screaming for his head on a stake. Seems that ten minute long rape scenes don’t bode well with the viewing public.

Source.

Also? Baise Moi was hugely controversial.

There is a lot of controversy throughout histiry about books and films that portray sexual violence. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Point me to a outcry of this magnitude for the film Irreversible.

There was an outcry, actually. Even Roger Ebert mentioned it in his review. There is actually a lot of outcry is Cannes (but the discourse is way better and open, thought)

 

[Kinyou]

I dunno, man. While it isn't government sanctioned, people seem to accept that if you go to prison, you'll probably get raped. A lot of people even believe that it comes with the territory and that the criminals deserve it. I don't really know what to make of that.

That is true but it's more like the government is in denial or simply doesn't care. If someone gets caught redhanded he'd still be prosecuted
The guy who pulled the lever on the electric chair never have to hide his deeds from the government.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Takashi Miike made Visitor Q on a budget for a pink direct-to-video company. it's essentially porn (Takashi Miike, on record, gets many production tips from porn directors/managers). I don't think you're really making a good case.

To be fair a indie digitally downloadable game like HM2 would probably be the video game equivilant of a low budget direct to video movie.