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[ArynCrinn]

Why are you introducing the question of "like" into it? That's not what you originally said, you said the developers shouldn't care about what anybody else thinks. If the purported intent of the developers is accurate, then they obviously should, otherwise they're failing at their goal.

I don't buy that most artists truly don't care what anyone else thinks, because the entire reason they're doing it is to get a message across or evoke a feeling in the audience. If they're truly not trying to do that then they're just making masturbatory nonsense.

I think you've missed the entire context of what I meant when I said artists "shouldn't care".

So to end a back and forth that will go exactly nowhere. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

Whats the big deal? Rape is commonplace in movies, TV and music. Games are closer to those entertainment mediums than ever before.

Double standards everywhere.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Whats the big deal? Rape is commonplace in movies, TV and music. Games are closer to those entertainment mediums than ever before.

Double standards everywhere.

rape as it appears in movies, tv, and music is also criticized and discussed.

so, no double standards at all.

 

[Sneds]

I think it's pretty clear that Hotline Miami is not expecting its audience to ever have actually had to deal with rape in any real sense (any more than with the extreme violence) and that in itself is pretty telling about how people view rape in today's society.

I think that's an excellent point.

 

[Robot Pants]

I, for one, am outraged!














That this game isn't out yet.

 

[Zoe]

I'm surprised no one else has seemed to mention the other...questionable aspect of the scene:


So, apparently, the player character is not only making a fake rape film, but is working for a director who is explicitly misogynist. Given how the game is apparently about making the player question his motives for playing and going along with the premise, the point of this scene might be to make the player question whether he should be working for such a person, and what it says about his own attitudes toward women if he does.

It was mentioned earlier that the film appears to be an embellished fictionalization of the already depraved first game.

 

[JABEE]

The rage against violence in video games was quite real 20 years ago.. We've just come to accept it.

And it still exists. And it still turns people off of videogames as a whole.

 

[Rubius]

rape as it appears in movies, tv, and music is also criticized and discussed.

so, no double standards at all.

Except that nobody is "Disgusted" by Game of Throne or Breaking Bad. Rape scenes on TV or movies are common now. Nearly all adult tv show talk about rape or have at least one character raped.
Having an outrage that a game does the same is telling at how people do not take game as a art form seriously. The game is violent to the max, its gory too. The fact that the inclusion of a rape scene is going over the line is weird for me. I always thought that Torturing people was lower than murder in the chain of atrocities.

 

[dubq]

I couldn't get into the first game. The literal top-down perspective is really off-putting.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I don't see the big deal and it seems like selective outrage.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Am I? Maybe he thinks rape is an act of violence AS WELL as sexual, but it's not clear in the post.

Besides, jett's post is just one example. There are plenty of other posts that separate rape from violence in this very thread. My only intention is to point out that the argument about complaints coming from prude views on sex is, to put it mildly, very flawed.

Yes, I think you are reading too much into it. Personally I think there is a reason he mentioned specific acts of non- sexual violence like "Blowing heads, limbs and entrails off" ( instead of just saying "violence")and then compared it to one with sexual violence. He's questioning why violence is ok, but not when it's sexual violence. He's not saying rape isn't an act of violence

What are the other examples of posts that separate rape from violence in this thread? Not saying they aren't there, but this thread has gotten too large for me to read everything

 

[dubq]

I don't see the big deal and it seems like selective outrage.

That's pretty much all outrage on teh innernets!

 

[Sneds]

Except that nobody is "Disgusted" by Game of Throne or Breaking Bad. Rape scenes on TV or movies are common now. Nearly all adult tv show talk about rape or have at least one character raped.
Having an outrage that a game does the same is telling at how people do not take game as a art form seriously. The game is violent to the max, its gory too. The fact that the inclusion of a rape scene is going over the line is weird for me. I always thought that Torturing people was lower than murder in the chain of atrocities.

These arguments have been made before in the thread and answered before as well.

 

[Pau]

Except that nobody is "Disgusted" by Game of Throne or Breaking Bad. Rape scenes on TV or movies are common now. Nearly all adult tv show talk about rape or have at least one character raped.
Having an outrage that a game does the same is telling at how people do not take game as a art form seriously. The game is violent to the max, its gory too. The fact that the inclusion of a rape scene is going over the line is weird for me. I always thought that Torturing people was lower than murder in the chain of atrocities.

I saw quite a lot of people talking about Game of Thrones and its rape scenes when it first came out. Nowadays there isn't much discussion because it's something that happens so much in the show, but you can bet that it was something people reacted to and not always positively.

 

[OnimaruXLR]

This retrospectively makes me feel better about not playing Hotline Miami.

Mostly because I really hate that rapidfire fail-repeat cycle that games like it and Super Meatboy have, but the general feeling of creepy craziness that so many people felt enamored with never struck me as a plus, so now I'm not a hypocrite when I'm grossed out by this! Boosh!

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

Some feminists would argue that when it comes to media and entertainment, rape IS worse than murder because it contributes to the omnipresent "rape culture."

There are no interest groups opposed to the "murder culture," as far as I know.

 

[Sneds]

I'm consistently dumfounded by the lack of capacity for critical thinking and empathy I see on gaf.

If the depiction of rape in HM2 has no effect on you then fine. That doesn't make you a bad person.

But if you can't get your head around the fact that this isn't "faux outrage" and that taking part in a simulated rape might affect other people (especially people who have been raped or are threatened by rape) then I'm surprised you're able to function in society.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I'm consistently dumfounded by the lack of capacity for critical thinking and empathy I see on gaf.

If the depiction of rape in HM2 has no effect on you then fine. That doesn't make you a bad person.

But if you can't get your head around the fact that this isn't "faux outrage" and that taking part in a simulated rape might affect other people (especially people who have been raped or are threatened by rape) then I'm surprised you're able to function in society.

So what should the developers do about this?

 

[Sneds]

So what should the developers do about this?

You've already asked me this question and I've answered it.

 

[a very cute dog]

I'm consistently dumfounded by the lack of capacity for critical thinking and empathy I see on gaf.

If the depiction of rape in HM2 has no effect on you then fine. That doesn't make you a bad person.

But if you can't get your head around the fact that this isn't "faux outrage" and that taking part in a simulated rape might affect other people (especially people who have been raped or are threatened by rape) then I'm surprised you're able to function in society.

It's not surprising. Disappointing, but not surprising. It really does boil down to a lack of empathy and a very reactionary need to discredit "the feminists" or whoever is currently threatening to challenge their worldview.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Countless brutal murders in the game... no outrage... but add one rape... TOTAL outrage... I'd rather be raped than murdered, sorry. I just can't relate to the line of thought on display by those who feel so betrayed.

One thing that is worth considering -- and I'm pretty late in jumping into this so my apologies if this has already been covered -- is that once upon a time, violence was a big deal in games. We're going back a long ways, but when Mortal Kombat was unleashed on the world back in 1993, it did stir up a lot of controversy. It's just that -- like a lot of things in life for better or for worse -- this stuff often becomes the de facto standard as many people that aren't overly concerned about these activities move on.

But for what it's worth, many people today are still concerned about violence in video games. Mind you, it only becomes a hot button issue when a mass murdering gunman is suspected to like video games, but it's not like everybody on the planet has embraced violence in video games. And even people that often aren't up in arms about the prevalence of violence in video games will often concede that violent aggression is probably an overused mechanic in gaming. Recently -- and though I haven't played the game myself -- I noticed a lot of people criticizing that the shooting in Bioshock Infinite was at odds with its narrative. Given that, it's important to me that people realize that the over reliance on violence does not go unnoticed.

Also -- and I'm quite certain that I'm not breaking any new ground here -- I think the difference to be noted is that I think people would be hard pressed to explain why being able to rape would be mechanically necessary from a gameplay perspective. Killing really isn't either, but unfortunately so many games are just centered around the idea that the focal point of the title is a violent conflict where killing is inevitable. That still leaves narrative, mind you. So I can't completely toss out any arguments that a character raping another isn't somehow integral to that game's story, but I'll just kind of recuse myself from that discussion as I'm not the biggest proponent of narrative as an important part of gaming to begin with.

And finally, getting back the original observation about the length of time separating Mortal Kombat making waves on the scene way back, it's worth noting that this too may become accepted and uncontroversial for people out there that think it's important for creators to be able tell the stories they want without fear of the angry populace lashing out and threatening creators that aren't ready to stand behind their work. Personally speaking, I could do without characters raping other characters in my video games, but if creators stick to their guns and this becomes more common place, I wouldn't be surprised to see that rape in Hotline Miami 10 in ten years is almost completely uncontroversial.

 

[GameGuru59]

These arguments have been made before in the thread and answered before as well.

Doesn't mean those answers are correct.

 

[Pau]

So what should the developers do about this?

The same thing they do about any creative decision they make: think about what they're doing, if they're doing it well, how it fits into their game, and how the player would react. Maybe the developers of Hotline Miami 2 didn't expect this decision to be as gendered as it is; maybe they did and don't care. It honestly feels like the (implied) rape is presented as some sort of hyperviolent fantasy that most players are disconnected from in real life.

 

[ZeroRay]

I'm consistently dumfounded by the lack of capacity for critical thinking and empathy I see on gaf.

If the depiction of rape in HM2 has no effect on you then fine. That doesn't make you a bad person.

But if you can't get your head around the fact that this isn't "faux outrage" and that taking part in a simulated rape might affect other people (especially people who have been raped or are threatened by rape) then I'm surprised you're able to function in society.

Pretty much.

A good number of posters planting their straw arguments before even reading the article are a testament to that.

 

[Sneds]

Doesn't mean those answers are correct.

It's not so much about answers being "correct" in this case as we're talking about people's responses.

In any case, I don't see the point in people posting the same arguments time and time again.

It bothers me a bit because people read the first few posts (if we're lucky), drop an unoriginal post and then leave the thread. So the discussion ends up going round in circles.

 

[zero01101]

this game has already become intensely effective in its meta-message, i think. not only did it re-sensitize the player in question and in greatly potent fashion, but brought heated, intense debate that does go beyond scrutinizing the consumer of the medium.

will buy.

[edit]
re-sensitize as in a different sense of desensitize, not as in opening old wounds. apologies for ambiguity.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's not so much about arguments being "correct" in this case as we're talking about people's responses.

In any case, I don't see the point in people posting the same arguments time and time again.

It bothers me a bit because people read the first few posts (if we're lucky), drop an unoriginal post and then leave the thread. So the discussion ends up going round in circles.

Kinda how every thread goes. Every 10 pages someone will make the same point and then the old discussion topics flare up again.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Except that nobody is "Disgusted" by Game of Throne or Breaking Bad. Rape scenes on TV or movies are common now. Nearly all adult tv show talk about rape or have at least one character raped.
Having an outrage that a game does the same is telling at how people do not take game as a art form seriously. The game is violent to the max, its gory too. The fact that the inclusion of a rape scene is going over the line is weird for me. I always thought that Torturing people was lower than murder in the chain of atrocities.

again... where is the 'outrage?', and also, if you don't think there are people critical of rape as depicted in tv or movies, well, that is just not true at all. Do I need to google "Film X + disgusting" or something?

 

[TCKaos]

One thing that is worth considering -- and I'm pretty late in jumping into this so my apologies if this has already been covered -- is that once upon a time, violence was a big deal in games. We're going back a long ways, but when Mortal Kombat was unleashed on the world back in 1993, it did stir up a lot of controversy. It's just that -- like a lot of things in life for better or for worse -- this stuff often becomes the de facto standard as many people that aren't overly concerned about these activities move on.

But for what it's worth, many people today are still concerned about violence in video games. Mind you, it only becomes a hot button issue when a mass murdering gunman is suspected to like video games, but it's not like everybody on the planet has embraced violence in video games. And even people that often aren't up in arms about the prevalence of violence in video games will often concede that violent aggression is probably an overused mechanic in gaming. Recently -- and though I haven't played the game myself -- I noticed a lot of people criticizing that the shooting in Bioshock Infinite was at odds with its narrative. Given that, it's important to me that people realize that the over reliance on violence does not go unnoticed.

Also -- and I'm quite certain that I'm not breaking any new ground here -- I think the difference to be noted is that I think people would be hard pressed to explain why being able to rape would be mechanically necessary from a gameplay perspective. Killing really isn't either, but unfortunately so many games are just centered around the idea that the focal point of the title is a violent conflict where killing is inevitable. That still leaves narrative, mind you. So I can't completely toss out any arguments that a character raping another isn't somehow integral to that game's story, but I'll just kind of recuse myself from that discussion as I'm not the biggest proponent of narrative as an important part of gaming to begin with.

And finally, getting back the original observation about the length of time separating Mortal Kombat making waves on the scene way back, it's worth noting that this too may become accepted and uncontroversial for people out there that think it's important for creators to be able tell the stories they want without fear of the angry populace lashing out and threatening creators that aren't ready to stand behind their work. Personally speaking, I could do without characters raping other characters in my video games, but if creators stick to their guns and this becomes more common place, I wouldn't be surprised to see that rape in Hotline Miami 10 in ten years is almost completely uncontroversial.

I'd like to repost what I said last page, as I think it needs to be restated.

This was clearly a fake rape scene in a game about an actor playing a psychopathic serial killer. In character he isn't supposed to be a nice or savory individual - he's a mentally unstable monster. I don't see how a rape scene is causing this much of a commotion. It helps cement the fact that the public sees him as an unstable monster which, in turn, makes it seem as though the four fans you play as are also psychopaths because they're aspiring to be like the character the actor is portraying. Rape, being characterized as a special kind of evil, just serves to further the whole notion/story/characterization that the character is a psycho and the fans are psychos for emulating him. Removing it could irreparably damage the narrative/characterization of the "Pig Butcher" and his fans as well as the meta-narrative that questions why fans would want a sequel identical to the original game.

But yeah, I completely agree that it's mechanically unnecessary and therefore any inclusion should have to justify itself in the narrative of the game, which I feel Hotline Miami 2 is attempting to do.

It'd be one thing if you were taking cover behind a chest-high wall with your dudebro NPC buddy and tearing some girl's clothes off while taking fire from some ambiguous Arab/Russian/Korean/Communist/Terrorists while high-fiving and getting achievements, but you're not. You play as a character, acting how the public perceives the character from the last game for a movie, to show that the four fans you play as who attempt to emulate said character are clearly psychopathic.

As far as I can tell, anyway.

 

[Cymbal Head]

I am picking extreme examples, mostly because I couldn't give a shit about 99% of the crap that shat these days by mainstream films.

I believe Darren Aronsfsky also commented in one of his commentaries he really doesn't care about what the "audience" thinks of his work. David Lynch is another example.

That's totally fine, you're not obligated to give a shit about anything. But you can't then apply the ethos of those extreme examples to filmmakers or game makers across the board.

Some filmmakers do care about their audiences, and some game makers do care about their audiences. They might alter content based on audience expectations or demands, and they're well within their rights to do it without it indicating a censorship problem endemic to the medium.

 

[ZeroRay]

this game has already become intensely effective in its meta-message, i think. not only did it re-sensitize the player in question and in greatly potent fashion, but brought heated, intense debate that does go beyond scrutinizing the consumer of the medium.

will buy.

You know, I hope the devs are actually smart enough to be doing this and not just for the lulz. Even still, doesn't mean it's above scrutiny.

HM1 is one of my favorite games, and its message did resonate with me through its gameplay. The thing is, the message the devs may be intending with the scene pretty much dissipates if the person playing happens to be female. This tells me that the game was designed with only the male player in mind.

 

[Jac_Solar]

Wait... Hotline Miami 2 is out? Where have I been. I LOVED the first one.


I'm not trying to necessarily take sides on the issue - but I always find it weird that a fictionalized & digital rape is considered horrible; but fictionalized & digital hyper violence is okay.

Because one action is about forcibly using the body of someone else for your own pleasure (Power demonstration or sexually.) over a period of time. Most movies and games use violence as a means to get somewhere, do something, about the plot or whatever - it's used as a tool, a gameplay mechanic or a plot device. Movies and games that have characters that use violence against someone just because they can, and for no other purpose than to please themselves, are extremely rare.

 

[Pau]

You know, I hope the devs are actually smart enough to be doing this and not just for the lulz. Even still, doesn't mean it's above scrutiny.

HM1 is one of my favorite games, and its message did resonate with me through its gameplay. The thing is, the message the devs may be intending with the scene pretty much dissipates if the person playing happens to be female. This tells me that the game was designed with only the male player in mind.

Basically this.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

The same thing they do about any creative decision they make: think about what they're doing, if they're doing it well, how it fits into their game, and how the player would react. Maybe the developers of Hotline Miami 2 didn't expect this decision to be as gendered as it is; maybe they did and don't care. It honestly feels like the (implied) rape is presented as some sort of hyperviolent fantasy that most players are disconnected from in real life.

What happens when they are in a 'no win' situation as you pretty much admited about the topic at hand?

 

[zero01101]

You know, I hope the devs are actually smart enough to be doing this and not just for the lulz. Even still, doesn't mean it's above scrutiny.

HM1 is one of my favorite games, and its message did resonate with me through its gameplay. The thing is, the message the devs may be intending with the scene pretty much dissipates if the person playing happens to be female. This tells me that the game was designed with only the male player in mind.

i'm preparing to not tell my wife a thing about this game, have her play this tutorial, and ask her about what she thought. i'm truthfully looking forward to it. i'm really not trying to be cruel; she's not a gamer and i want to know what the over-the-top violence juxtaposed against the horror of common rape actually rises in one not quite as jaded.

if dennaton sticks to their vision and the game is released unaltered, please hound me with PMs until i report back with my findings, as if i can convince myself anyone cares what my wife thinks about a video game. the intense unease i felt with HM1 in the first level made me uncomfortable like no game before, but spoke leagues of its relevance.

 

[Pau]

What happens when they are in a 'no win' situation as you pretty much admited about the topic at hand?

I didn't say it was impossible. I just said it was incredibly hard to do.

 

[TCKaos]

i'm preparing to not tell my wife a thing about this game, have her play this tutorial, and ask her about what she thought. i'm truthfully looking forward to it. i'm really not trying to be cruel; she's not a gamer and i want to know what the over-the-top violence juxtaposed against the horror of common rape actually rises in one not quite as jaded.

if dennaton sticks to their vision and the game is released unaltered, please hound me with PMs until i report back with my findings, as if i can convince myself anyone cares what my wife thinks about a video game. the intense unease i felt with HM1 in the first level made me uncomfortable like no game before, but spoke leagues of its relevance.

That actually sounds interesting. I'm looking forward to this, now.

 

[Retro_]

What happens when they are in a 'no win' situation as you pretty much admited about the topic at hand?

Then they have a hard decision to make

 

[BocoDragon]

I have an honest question:

How are we supposed to react to these criticisms of games?

It's often said in these threads that "it's not about censorship?" So what is it about then?

Is the critic implying that the game should be changed? Is the critic implying that future games be made with raised consciousness? Is the critic implying a boycott?

Is the critic just expressing her reaction to the game - not necessarily implying that it is a "social ill" - but just saying its not for her?

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

...Well, if there's something we can all agree on, it's that the soundtrack is going to be fantastic again.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I didn't say it was impossible. I just said it was incredibly hard to do.

I agree that is hard to do. But this also give us another question, they should not try?

Then they have a hard decision to make

Well, it seems the scene is not going to get cut... so...

 

[freenudemacusers]

I agree that is hard to do. But this also give us another question, they should not try?

Anyone is welcome to try, and anyone is welcome to respond positively or negatively. Games don't need to be sheltered from criticism (not implyin this is your position).

 

[Pau]

I have an honest question:

How are we supposed to react to these criticisms of games?

It's often said in these threads that "it's not about censorship?" So what is it about then?

Is the critic implying that the game should be changed? Is the critic implying that future games be made with raised consciousness? Is the critic implying a boycott?

Is the critic just expressing her reaction to the game - not necessarily implying that it is a "social ill" - but just saying its not for her?

It's about bringing awareness about issues that people might be unaware of when they make such creative decisions and but mostly just saying it's not for her.

I don't see how this is any different from other types of criticisms. It basically boils down to: "Personally, I felt the game could have been better without this or if this was done differently." That doesn't translate to: "Every game has to now do what I want." It's just a response. Whether or not developers take that into account when they make their games is up to them - the same way it always is.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Anyone is welcome to try, and anyone is welcome to respond positively or negatively. Games don't need to be sheltered from criticism (not implyin this is your position).

Agree.

 

[Cymbal Head]

I do not feel that it cross a line. We have rape scenes in movies, we have rape scenes in books. Why does a pseudo pixelized character raping a women is worst than a actress simulating a rape on TV on prime time?
The guy bash heads, kill people, and do pretty much the most horrible thing possible. How is it surprising that raping is one of them?

Two points:

1. Watching a guy commit a rape on film is experientially very different than pressing the button that makes him commit a rape in a game. Neither is real, but in one the viewer is an observer, and in the other, the player is acting through the character to carry out the act.

2. Everybody who plays this game should know going in that violence and killing are part of the main gameplay loop. As I said in my previous post, it's part of the contract you sign with the game when you decide to play it. It's nowhere made explicit (or even implicit) that you're going to be forced to rape a woman. I think this is the heart of the betrayal that Cara described in the PC Gamer article.

3 (oops--bonus point). I think very few people in this thread are arguing that there should be no depictions of rape in games, they just want it to be handled with the seriousness it deserves and/or have some substantial artistic reason why it should be included. Those are the points that are largely up to debate.

I want to point out: If, as many fans of the first game have argued, the intent of the game and this specific scene is to create a dissonance in the viewer and evoke a meta-commentary about whether the player should actually be enjoying the game and why he is continuing to play it, then the developers obviously can't hide behind a "I don't care about the audience" defense. If that's the intent, then they explicitly do care about the audience reaction, and are deliberately trying to shape it in specific ways (which, you know, most art tries to do). In that context, the writer's opinion that the developers failed to do that effectively is absolutely a relevant critique.

This is an excellent point, and it hinges on how seriously everybody involved takes their favorite medium. Are we forever chained to making and consuming things that are merely fun, or can we handle creators making serious statements and consumers having serious discussions about them?

Fun games are great, really they are. But we shouldn't allow the pursuit of fun to tether us eternally to "hey man it's just a game, stop taking it so seriously," and "we just wanted to put some rape in there, it does't mean anything and we can do what we want because it's our game."

 

[reptilescorpio]

Hard to tell from a written preview but it seems to pull off what Dennington are trying to do, won't really be able to analyse it critically until the game is out though.

 

[HyperBitHero]

So, not only is it a fake rape, but it is a fake rape even within the game's narrative.

I'm so outraged!

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I have an honest question:

How are we supposed to react to these criticisms of games?

It's often said in these threads that "it's not about censorship?" So what is it about then?

Is the critic implying that the game should be changed? Is the critic implying that future games be made with raised consciousness? Is the critic implying a boycott?

Is the critic just expressing her reaction to the game - not necessarily implying that it is a "social ill" - but just saying its not for her?

Personally, I just think that you're supposed to recognize criticism falls under the same umbrella of free speech that allows this game to exist in the first place. And this also extends to criticism of the criticism. However, I would argue that being constructive and not misrepresenting people is important to the discussion.

To answer whether it would be censorship, to me that is only applicable when outside authorities are being advised to act. If I'm calling for retailers, publishers, and/or regulatory entities to block the game's release, that's an attempt at censorship.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's about bringing awareness about issues that people might be unaware of when they make such creative decisions and but mostly just saying it's not for her.

I don't see how this is any different from other types of criticisms. It basically boils down to: "Personally, I felt the game could have been better without this or if this was done differently." That doesn't translate to: "Every game has to now do what I want." It's just a response. Whether or not developers take that into account when they make their games is up to them - the same way it always is.

That's very understandable, then.

I think it gets lost a bit in the echo chamber of the blogosphere and GAF... it starts as a personal reaction to the game. A very understandable reaction and criticism, because it didn't work for them.

By the time it reaches our ears, you can get the impression that there is a bloggers mob demanding censor/ban/"capitulate to my progressive demands". But perhaps that's a bit of an illusion. I bet I'm not the only one who gets that (perhaps mistaken) impression from these types of stories. It would explain how defensive people get.

 

[freenudemacusers]

So, not only is it a fake rape, but it is a fake rape even within the game's narrative.

I'm so outraged!

another page, another dumb drive-by post