Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
The Bioware employee would be the one criticizing this game for misogyny.
Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
- Thread starter Dawg
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The Bioware employee would be the one criticizing this game for misogyny.
No-one has blown anything out of proportion. No-one has called for a ban, censorship or a boycott. The most anyone has done is to suggest that the designers think very carefully about this scene and add a warning. If that's out of proportion then you need to get some perspective.
My understanding is that they consider it a lot. http://www.shakesville.com/2008/10/feminism-101.html
Of course, men can and do get raped. But it's not a day-to-day threat in the same way it is for women. I don't think that's up for debate.
FYI, the woman is mortally wounded and then raped.
You've completely misunderstood the whole issue. This is the kind of lack of empathy I was talking about before.
Edit: sorry for the double post.
Zoe
Member
It's supposed to be a reenactment of the first game. That won't work.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I think she was fine with it. After all the game has you shoot the girl
Then it has you rape her
the only female NPC in the game so far
That's what she has a problem with. The only female character you encounter in the level is there solely to be the target of sexual violence.
My wife says, when asked if she thinks about rape 'no nore than being mugged or murdered' i guess living in a country with the lowest crime rate in the world skews our views a bit.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
The woman is seen as a woman. Rape is "a thing that happens to women" as far as dramatic elements are concerned. Therefore, gender-directed violence.
The men aren't seen as men. They're dehumanized targets. The majority of action movies do this too. It's not seen as violence against men because they aren't even considered human most of the time. Therefore, not gender-directed violence. This generally gets a pass because without it, action movies and video games wouldn't be much fun.
That's how I make sense of it, anyway.
Possibly, you might also consider that your wife doesn't speak for all women where you live.
I don't think anyone in this thread ever implied that men are as prone to getting raped as women. Moreover, you literally addressed nothing else in the first half of what I wrote, and addressed a quip I put in brackets. Nice.
And the article author, nor you speak for all women either, does it make her opinion hold any less weight? no. whos using silencing techniques now? just because her opinion goes against what youd like the general ipinion to be?
This is another problem too. Women in games are purposefully singled out for sexualized violence but for some reason making half of the mooks you mow down be women is unthinkable.
I edited out that child remark because I thought it was too rude so I apologise for that.
That being said, clearly you didn't understand the issue otherwise you wouldn't be asking the questions you are.
I can "handle" your opinion, I just find it idiotic, which is why I can't be bothered to engage with most of what you've said.
I didn't mean that to invalidate your wife's opinion. I was just stating that other women where you live might think differently, that's all.
Sometimes people on gaf have a tendency to say "well, my wife/gf/sister thinks x" as though that speaks for all of womankind. I realise that's not what you were doing though.
He didn't specifically ask the developers to change the game, but he hopes that they take note of the article. But... why would he want them to read the article if he isn't hopeful for change? To see their reaction?
Absolutely. 100% agree with you. Men aren't gendered. Violence against men is just violence. Violence against women is gendered violence. Women really do hold a monopoly over the victim status.
And it's funny because I can sit here and critique the author all day for feeling betrated but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't feel a little strange going into that scene blind. I'm a product of my culture as well.
The scene is deliberately meant to provoke an unpleasant reaction and catch a player off guard. That's rare in games (which are usually designed to promote positive reinforcement), and is why things like FF7 (mild example) stick out for people when they blatantly go against expectations of safety.
Again, I understand it just fine. I've already demonstrated that. Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I don't understand the issue.
i.e "I can't handle your opinion"
Cara Ellison does acknowledge that her feelings are hypocritical, but she also explains that it's probably because:
1) That NPC was the only woman in the demo. She's the token female, and as a result Cara identified with her more than any of the other characters.
2) Getting raped is an everyday fear that women have in the back of their minds, or worse, something that some women have actually lived through. We generally don't have a fear of getting our heads chopped off or otherwise gruesomely murdered. That type of extreme violence is so far removed from our lives, it's just fantasy. But rape hits closer to home.
I think Cara did a good job of explaining her feelings in the article. I'm not really sure why you're trying to discredit it or suggest that it's wrong. That was her experience with the game. That's all. There's no right or wrong.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that then.
Nope, but if that's what you want to believe so be it.
I never said she's wrong. I said she's a hypocrite. Acknowledging your own hypocricy but sticking to your guns does not make the bad taste in my mouth go away.
She's entitled to her opinions. Moreover, she's played the game, I haven't. Who knows how I'd feel once I played it.
Saying she's a hypocrite is basically like saying she's wrong IMO, but whatever.
I was just puzzled because you said "I don't understand how someone could love doing downright horrible things etc." but the article does try to explain why and understand why. Of course, sometimes our reactions may be illogical and hypocritical. But there is an explanation in the article, if you want to try to understand her point of view.
I wasn't aware of that not having played it. Aside from that, though, does it seem like a workable solution if a man were to be raped in place of the woman and/or if the player were given the choice of whom to finish?
Edit: I understand that the inclusion of a rape scene itself is objectionable but if it must be included would the above make it less controversial or more accepted?
Zoe
Member
Not in that scene, no.
GameGuru59
Banned
Presumably if you didn't like the art in Borderlands you would prefer a different type of art for the game. I don't criticize things I don't think should be changed. People criticized the art in Wind Waker, and we got Twilight Princess. Criticizing things changes often them. I'm saying Devolver shouldn't listen to yours because I feel they are invalid. I am against your criticism, though not your right to criticize.
A social group whose members control some field of activity and who have common aims
Sometimes it's fine to say "it's not for me but if that's the artists vision then so be it." There are lots of films I don't like but that doesn't mean I want them changed.
Okay.
I know what an interest group is but I don't see how it pertains to this case. There are various people in this thread who have issues with the rape scene but we're not a social group with any kind of common aim.
Interesting post.
I don't see eye to eye with you, on Hotline Miami's writing, it's true that is far from elegant but, and keep in mind that i don't care about their intentions or inspirations, i think it perfectly fits the vomit-inducing, punk and disgusting nature of the game.
The whole game is an acid looking ugly trip between a videogame and reality (with constant 4th wall breaches) and it's the obvious meta-nature of it that gives those dialogues and that writing style the legitimacy they have.
And i think the "punk who don't give a fuck" attitude you mention, is also an integral part of the game's mythos (more than the developer's) Since all the elements in HM2 seems to revolve around a disgruntled developer (as a virtual, non-existant character, not the actual developer) trying to hurt and piss off those who enjoyed the first game for the wrong reasons.
And i think the fact that the rape scene is *just* a fake event(even in-game), plays on the concept of artistic responsibility and levity with which horrible subjects gets treated, because in the end it's just pretending, even in the game's story... yet it horrified the player anyway (in this case because they don't tell you it's fake, until it's too late).
I find it brilliant, whether or not it was fully intentional, i really don't care, i think most good art always goes beyond the boundaries of its creator's intentions anyway.
I also think that Hotline Miami and Hotline Miami 2 are definitely NOT "safe places" and they shouldn't be, as that's the whole point.
They should either put it as they intended, to cause the intended effect, or just remove it.
Either you think, as an artist, that the scene has value and justifies itself, or you don't, in which case the scene shouldn't even be there at all.
Weird half measures in this case would make zero sense.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Wow.
While I have my own feelings on this matter that I will not share with this thread for the sake of idiocy....
Rape is just a little different than Kratos banging chicks (which I also take issue with).
I think the idea is to shock the player in way of "what the... I didn't mean to do that" (I thought that at least once or twice in HM1) sort of reminding you that you're not fully in control and that the character you're playing is just a horrible, horrible human being. Setting up the whole scene as "Choose who you want to rape!" would really work against that.
GameGuru59
Banned
Hmm, I've never experienced that. Maybe its because I always have such strong feelings lol. I'll admit that I've been working under the assumption that you guys did want the scene changed.
I'm not necessarily saying you or people on this thread are, but for sure there are feminist groups that would and could put enormous pressure on Devolver to change the game. As they have many, many times before. And that's the type of thing I can't stand more than anything else. This is how stuff like this starts. It starts as rumbles about something that people in a "local" group (people within the industry, or follow games closely) consider inappropriate, and then it blows up into Steam refusing to sell the game. Hot Coffee happened exactly this way. I am against both government censorship, corporate censorship, and social censorship. I am against ALL censorship. I am for people expressing themselves as they see fit whether they are right or wrong.
faceless007
Member
I think the whole "so you're saying killing isn't as bad as rape" angle is pretty disingenuous and the people not-so-cleverly trying to point out that supposed inconsistency don't really believe it either. Let me try to explain why.
If it's really that obvious that killing is way lower than rape on the hierarchy of Acceptable Things to Depict, then logically, that means that our society and culture should be creating far more works and fictional depictions of rape than it does of killing, and rape should be even more acceptable as a means of entertainment than killing. It means that scenes of rape should less shocking and discomforting than scenes of killing, and characters who rape should be even more sympathetic and heroic than characters who kill lots of people. In short, it means that depictions of rape shouldn't be any more uncomfortable than depictions of killing.
Let's go further and talk about videogames. There are abundant videogames where the central mechanic, the primary means of progression, is to violently kill people. Some are more violent than others, but especially with the current state of HD graphics, there's no shortage of games that revolve around brutally and mercilessly killing hundreds upon hundreds of people, depicted in quite realistic-looking fidelity and emphasizing (and outright fetishizing) the physical damage it does to the body. So if rape is truly not as bad as killing, we should expect to see quite a few games that use the act of rape in the same way--depicting it in realistic, fetishized form and making it the central means of progression of the game. And there should be just as many if not more people willing to play this game as there are who play Grand Theft Auto or God of War or any other hyper-violent game.
Obviously, that isn't the case. We don't live in world where depictions of rape are more common than depictions of killing. Most people are far more discomfited and shocked by scenes of rape than of killing. (Killing even happens in kids' stories, often as the means of defeating the villain.) Killing is probably one of the most frequently used story devices and heroic actions; rape almost never used that way. And I'd be willing to bet money that even the vast majority of posters in this thread, even the people throwing out that bit of rhetorical wordplay there, would not be willing to play a hypothetical video game like I described with rape as the primary mechanic. They would be put off by such a game and be made quite uncomfortable by it. As would anyone with even a remotely functioning moral compass.
Therefore, pretty much all of society, whether it says so explicitly or not, has demonstrated that it finds rape as a story device much less acceptable than the act of killing. And if you disagree with that discrepancy, logically, the only way to fix it is to push for rape to be used even more in fiction until it is as depicted as frequently as killing. But I don't think anybody is going to do that.
If you still don't think so, just answer this question: Would you be willing to tell your friends that you played and enjoyed that hypothetical game, the same way you tell them you played and enjoyed GTA or any shooter?
If it's really that obvious that killing is way lower than rape on the hierarchy of Acceptable Things to Depict, then logically, that means that our society and culture should be creating far more works and fictional depictions of rape than it does of killing, and rape should be even more acceptable as a means of entertainment than killing. It means that scenes of rape should less shocking and discomforting than scenes of killing, and characters who rape should be even more sympathetic and heroic than characters who kill lots of people. In short, it means that depictions of rape shouldn't be any more uncomfortable than depictions of killing.
Let's go further and talk about videogames. There are abundant videogames where the central mechanic, the primary means of progression, is to violently kill people. Some are more violent than others, but especially with the current state of HD graphics, there's no shortage of games that revolve around brutally and mercilessly killing hundreds upon hundreds of people, depicted in quite realistic-looking fidelity and emphasizing (and outright fetishizing) the physical damage it does to the body. So if rape is truly not as bad as killing, we should expect to see quite a few games that use the act of rape in the same way--depicting it in realistic, fetishized form and making it the central means of progression of the game. And there should be just as many if not more people willing to play this game as there are who play Grand Theft Auto or God of War or any other hyper-violent game.
Obviously, that isn't the case. We don't live in world where depictions of rape are more common than depictions of killing. Most people are far more discomfited and shocked by scenes of rape than of killing. (Killing even happens in kids' stories, often as the means of defeating the villain.) Killing is probably one of the most frequently used story devices and heroic actions; rape almost never used that way. And I'd be willing to bet money that even the vast majority of posters in this thread, even the people throwing out that bit of rhetorical wordplay there, would not be willing to play a hypothetical video game like I described with rape as the primary mechanic. They would be put off by such a game and be made quite uncomfortable by it. As would anyone with even a remotely functioning moral compass.
Therefore, pretty much all of society, whether it says so explicitly or not, has demonstrated that it finds rape as a story device much less acceptable than the act of killing. And if you disagree with that discrepancy, logically, the only way to fix it is to push for rape to be used even more in fiction until it is as depicted as frequently as killing. But I don't think anybody is going to do that.
If you still don't think so, just answer this question: Would you be willing to tell your friends that you played and enjoyed that hypothetical game, the same way you tell them you played and enjoyed GTA or any shooter?
The way they die in HM is not over the top, people in that game actually die in more realistic ways like getting their throat slit or getting beat by a bat. It's just the amount of death in that game is over the top. I think if you have the most extreme level of violence in this medium a lot of other things should be fair game as well and think it's stupid people start picking and choosing what they feel like being offended about. And if anyone decided to actually see the scene in question, they will find it's probably not as tasteless as being described.
You do have to admit that it is strange that it's fine to kill tons of people, but rape is not OK.
That being said, for some reason...it does seem pretty wrong that there's rape in a game, by the protagonist.
BUT, I really hate censorship, or for developers to not be able make games the way they want. But still.
I don't think many people will defend RapeLay, and that was certainly someone's "vision" too.
That being said, for some reason...it does seem pretty wrong that there's rape in a game, by the protagonist.
BUT, I really hate censorship, or for developers to not be able make games the way they want. But still.
I don't think many people will defend RapeLay, and that was certainly someone's "vision" too.
CambriaRising
Member
No opinion on this really other than I am a bit perturbed that it was spoiled in the thread title.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I could be wrong -- and I'm on my phone here or I'd research this more thoroughly -- but I think theism controversy surrounding Hot Coffee was not only the content itself, but the fact that it was hidden away. I.e. many -- including more seriously entities like the ESRB -- felt the product misrepresented itself by not making clear that that kind of content was in the game.
And to that point, I don't understand the cry against censorship in an example like that. For better or worse, games are subject to reviews (as are movies and TV shows). If that content had been properly submitted, it may have garnered an AO rating, making it largely unmarketable. But that's the way the industry works.
Everybody who is arguing that
"if murder is okay why isnt rape okay?" are either grossly ignorant, or really havent thought that through.
this is for several reasons:
1. cultural proliferation of murder in media
- this is a simple one, but not incredibly powerful alone. Essentially, killing is so common in entertainment that it lowers the bar. While in and of itself is not a reason for murder to be less offensive than rape, it contributes to the first reaction of the viewer. Its ubiquity in certain genres also raises the possibility that there is a psychological justification on the part of the viewer in order to treat the behaviour of killing as acceptable. I also understand that HLM2 puts the rape scene to push the boundraries and question this murder/shock norm. This leads me to...
2. "justified" killing
- this is my key point here. I am only going to focus on main characters in media here, because this context is driven by a rape by the "player" (the main character in a video game). When a main character kills, the viewer is almost always given a reason, or justification - this is the concept of "the bad guy". Main characters kill 100 faceless people because they are "mafia" or because the main character is a bad guy and kills the faceless "police". In every case, there is an easy to identify class of antagonisers that immediately resolve any issues viewers have with killing. Generally, the justification is external to the character and internal to the movie - they are a "bad guy". The exception can be with psychopaths, but even in their case - the "bad guy" is simply everybody.
To reword the "bad guy" logic, the main character kills faceless character because "X". e.g. james bond kills faceless character because they are going to kill him. james bond kills faceless character because he is a mafia member. han solo kills faceless character because they are part of the empire. etc. In HLM2, main character rapes faceless character because she is a woman.
"bad guy" logic also stems itself a lot from self defense reasoning, which makes it a lot more acceptable to people. In HLM2, there is no justification for the rape, other than that "the main character is fucked up" or the game itself is fucked up. I'd like to argue that with the exception of the rape, the game itself really isn't fucked up - as murder, even gratuitous and gory murder, is much more easily justified by the viewer/player than the rape is, when considering the internal context of the scene (shock tactic is an external context). As a shock tactic, this actually shows that the "murder is okay, rape should be too" logic is false as it must mean the rape is inherently disturbing.
3. affliction of the minority group
- this is simple too. gaming is male dominated in terms of demographic. rape is a narrative of a (not exclusively) female problem. rape in broad terms is the abuse and exploitation of a minority. a medium depicting a rape of the minority group by the majority. if i was more sensationalist, id say that the video game industry is sexist
"if murder is okay why isnt rape okay?" are either grossly ignorant, or really havent thought that through.
this is for several reasons:
1. cultural proliferation of murder in media
- this is a simple one, but not incredibly powerful alone. Essentially, killing is so common in entertainment that it lowers the bar. While in and of itself is not a reason for murder to be less offensive than rape, it contributes to the first reaction of the viewer. Its ubiquity in certain genres also raises the possibility that there is a psychological justification on the part of the viewer in order to treat the behaviour of killing as acceptable. I also understand that HLM2 puts the rape scene to push the boundraries and question this murder/shock norm. This leads me to...
2. "justified" killing
- this is my key point here. I am only going to focus on main characters in media here, because this context is driven by a rape by the "player" (the main character in a video game). When a main character kills, the viewer is almost always given a reason, or justification - this is the concept of "the bad guy". Main characters kill 100 faceless people because they are "mafia" or because the main character is a bad guy and kills the faceless "police". In every case, there is an easy to identify class of antagonisers that immediately resolve any issues viewers have with killing. Generally, the justification is external to the character and internal to the movie - they are a "bad guy". The exception can be with psychopaths, but even in their case - the "bad guy" is simply everybody.
To reword the "bad guy" logic, the main character kills faceless character because "X". e.g. james bond kills faceless character because they are going to kill him. james bond kills faceless character because he is a mafia member. han solo kills faceless character because they are part of the empire. etc. In HLM2, main character rapes faceless character because she is a woman.
"bad guy" logic also stems itself a lot from self defense reasoning, which makes it a lot more acceptable to people. In HLM2, there is no justification for the rape, other than that "the main character is fucked up" or the game itself is fucked up. I'd like to argue that with the exception of the rape, the game itself really isn't fucked up - as murder, even gratuitous and gory murder, is much more easily justified by the viewer/player than the rape is, when considering the internal context of the scene (shock tactic is an external context). As a shock tactic, this actually shows that the "murder is okay, rape should be too" logic is false as it must mean the rape is inherently disturbing.
3. affliction of the minority group
- this is simple too. gaming is male dominated in terms of demographic. rape is a narrative of a (not exclusively) female problem. rape in broad terms is the abuse and exploitation of a minority. a medium depicting a rape of the minority group by the majority. if i was more sensationalist, id say that the video game industry is sexist
GameGuru59
Banned
You're right, the ESRB problem didn't help, and GTA had a target on its back from the jump.
More broadly however, I think this general habit of censorship in the US is the reason we have such a problem with our "violent culture" and "rape culture" in the first place. Maybe if artists felt more free to depict the consequences of rapes and other violent actions, men would be more empathetic towards women and other men. Maybe if people weren't so eager to censor Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, they could be more effectively demonstrated to be the idiots they are. Censorship pits the people who support what is being censored against those who want to censor it. Perhaps Devolver felt it needed to include this scene because there are so few depictions of rape in videogames.
I found it quite funny to see how the whole industry went into rage and flamefest just because one single scene. No, I don't approve rape and never make a joke or insult out of it. But in the work of fiction, everything is nearly acceptable as long as they serve for a greater purpose within the context of the narrative.
Now, I rarely seen an outrage just because a book depict a scene where a woman was raped. Meanwhile in veidoe games we could see something like this. I never seen such thing like sexism discussion happened too in literatire world. It is all because video game as a medium of entertainment is still very young, I think. The most serius audience of literature could accept horrible things in fiction that done correctly because they know that scene served a purpose. While in video games, I see the most serious audience still fall into the same trap.
What I want to say is, lets cool our head first, wait for the game to be released, then we could passed our judgement after we play it. Only then we could evaluate whether or not the rape scene is appropriate within the narrative context or not. If yes, then then scene is justified in writing and narative perspective. If not, the let us bring our pitchfork to the developer.
If somehow the game changed before release, I would be extremely pissed. Because I would feel that the author was censored by agenda and shallow perspective of some group that couldn't differentiate between fiction and reality.
Peopke need some frikkin perspective and apply verstehen concept in this industry I swear.
Now, I rarely seen an outrage just because a book depict a scene where a woman was raped. Meanwhile in veidoe games we could see something like this. I never seen such thing like sexism discussion happened too in literatire world. It is all because video game as a medium of entertainment is still very young, I think. The most serius audience of literature could accept horrible things in fiction that done correctly because they know that scene served a purpose. While in video games, I see the most serious audience still fall into the same trap.
What I want to say is, lets cool our head first, wait for the game to be released, then we could passed our judgement after we play it. Only then we could evaluate whether or not the rape scene is appropriate within the narrative context or not. If yes, then then scene is justified in writing and narative perspective. If not, the let us bring our pitchfork to the developer.
If somehow the game changed before release, I would be extremely pissed. Because I would feel that the author was censored by agenda and shallow perspective of some group that couldn't differentiate between fiction and reality.
Peopke need some frikkin perspective and apply verstehen concept in this industry I swear.
Zoe
Member
BTW, this bears repeating: when it prompts you to take action, it says "HOLD MOUSE OVER ENEMY." There's no "FINISH HER."
Edit: She also botches the director's line.
Her quote: Pig Man, well done, but don’t be afraid to be rougher. And you there, blondie – you need to work on your femininity. Act more helpless and scared. You know, more girly.
In game: Pig Man, well done... but don't be afraid to be rougher. You're supposed to be killing people! Make it look like you really hit them. And you there, blondie. You need to work on your femininity... Act more helpless and scared... You know... More girly!
By removing those two sentences, she's making it seem like the character is saying to make the rape rougher.
njean777
Member
This is such a steaming pile of BS. Killing is far worse than rape in real life, and it is often shown by how much time killers get compared to rapist. I obviously do not condone either of the acts, but killing in real life is far more harsh then raping somebody. I feel bad for women or men that have been raped, but at least they were not murdered, it is a shitty thing to say, but that is how I feel.
the person who inspired all this did play the game and witnessed the rape scene and brought her metaphorical pitchfork.
1. make her lying on the floor
2. liu kang takes off his pants, game fades to black
yeah, dont belittle the situation with false analogies
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Extended, continuous suffering vs cessation of both positive & negative experiences?
They're both bad, but for the victim rape sounds worse because they have to live with it.
faceless007
Member
...I wasn't talking about real life, I was talking about fiction. I said that like three times.
Cheese Raptor
Banned
Titties everywhere and violent murder is alright in God of War, but 8 bit fictional rape in HM2 is "tasteless". Typical industry morons.
I've played Mario, do you see my eating mushrooms, flowers and jumping on turtles? I've played Burnout, do you see me driving down populated streets at breakneck speeds?
I've played Mario, do you see my eating mushrooms, flowers and jumping on turtles? I've played Burnout, do you see me driving down populated streets at breakneck speeds?
People do need some perspective. This kind of debate happens in every kind of media.
I don't pay much attention to critical discussion of books, but I know that when Irreversible was shown for the first time at Cannes, many people walked out when confronted with its extended rape scene, and critics debated whether its inclusion was earned or exploitative. That's what open discussion and criticism mean.
Dennation has every right to keep the game as it is, and people who feel alienated by the game's content have every right to speak openly about their experiences.
You wrongly conflate "is" and "ought".
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
There was no rape in the game. There wasn't even implied rape, because it was set up as a movie scene. And to be honest, I've seen PG-13 movies that have gone farther with implied rape. They pulled their punches here, so the controversy feels manufactured. It seems like people are conversing as if there was a rape depicted because people want to have this conversation, and not because the scene in the game was particularly shocking or noteworthy.
its apparently not okay because you have to spend several seconds thinking its actual rape before the 'cut', i guess those sort of people also want jk rowling to say at the start or harry potter who dies and who doesnt so people know in advance before making a connection.
My wife is currently writing something up which i will link to soon, itll be interesting to see how people react.
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