Support NeoGAF

[AppleMIX]

If you have the time and energy to get angry about something and make posts on the internet criticizing it, you might as well also take the time to avoid vile insults.

No, the delivery of the message matters a lot.

What do you think is better for the author: "i didn't like "point x" in your story" or "you suck, get cancer!"

And we almost always have the "luxury" of making a nice cogent argument, especially when talking about something like games. One could start by being polite. If you feel the need to spout insults to get a point across you are not worth taking seriously in any debate.

The core problem is that I only control my own actions. Most people on GAF are good but it only takes one account to open up the hate flood gates.

Check my post history since 2007. It's pretty spotless.

Good for you?

 

[Jerry Orbach]

She had nothing to do with the gameplay aspects of the game, she was a fucking writer.

This explains so much about BioWare's games

 

[Mael]

The funny part is that you will never see this kind of vitirol against say government agencies like the NSA because of the fear of reprisal. One little "Go die Obama" or "I'll kill Michelle" and they will throw your ass in the deepest, darkest pit they can find and you will never be heard from again. And will be completely justified in doing so.

What can poor Jennifer Helper do though? Just an innocent civilian.
Attacking her makes the sweaty nerds feel big and strong.

You're talking about the president who got the most death threats thrown his way in history.
Unless I missed something there wasn't a mass jailing of people for this reason.

 

[grandjedi6]

Probably that fact that gamers have no reason to hate her. She's very good at what she does. She makes great games. She's not a controversial figure. Any level of controversy will get you death threats on the internet, no matter your career or gender. Hell, I've lost count of the number of death threats I've received just from playing online games or posting opinions on forums over the years. There's always going to be a pocket of belligerent people who go for the throat simply to entertain themselves.

So what's the reason for hating Hepler then? Cuz she wrote DA2? Because I'm pretty sure hating DA2 is not a legit reason for hating the actual people behind it.

I never said it was meaningless or ok. I'm just not interested in watching you throw a pity party for an entire gender when that clearly is not the basis for the criticism against her.

And I'm saying her gender made her a bigger target and garnered her more hatred than she would've otherwise. As has happened repeatedly.

And opposing sexism and death threats against people doesn't = pity party for an entire gender. Its called decency.

But hey, if you're so not interested in seeing these arguments, why are you in this thread?

 

[patapuf]

The core problem is that I only control my own actions. Most people on GAF are good but it only takes one account to open up the hate flood gates.

Sure, but the people doing it need no defending. A Markus Beer needs no defending.

If someone feels the need to insult his peers during arguments he deserves being critisized/ignored for it.

 

[TaroYamada]

Video game companies should never, ever hire someone that doesn't play video games.

Doesn't justify this treatment though.

I agree with this actually and I don't usually agree with you. Doesn't make sense to me to hire folks who have a poor understanding of the medium to fill these roles.

 

[Valnen]

My sarcasm detector is broken so please tell me you're joking.

People that don't love video games will never be capable of creating truly great things for them.

 

[Fornaximus]

There's no justified reason to send someone anonymous death threats over the internet.

Where exactly did I say these people were justified in making death threats? They're obviously fringe trolls. Nobody deserves death threats for being bad at their job.

 

[MattKeil]

I don't know all the details, but from what I understand her writing and her lack of caring for videogames themselves is why she got the hate.

No, it's the fact that she was a woman who dared impugn the holy medium of interactive entertainment. Nothing riles the crazies quite so quickly or thoroughly.

 

[AppleMIX]

Sure, but the people doing it need no defending. A Markus Beer needs no defending.

If someone feels the need to insult his peers during arguments he deserves being critisized/ignored for it.

I complete disagree.

What matters is the criticism and the evidence used to support that criticism. Any language used outside that is completely irrelevant. Obviously death threats are over the line and unacceptable but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the argument because it wasn't worded in the most friendliest fashion.

 

[Eudaemonium]

This is rather nauseating, to put it mildly.

I'm also not entirely sure why people keep claiming she's a bad writer, considerign she wrote what was probably the best parts of Origins (Orzammar, Dwarf Noble Origin).

 

[DocSeuss]

Also, I'm pretty sure that Jennifer Hepler doesn't dislike video games. If she does, I don't know why she has such a strong, continued interest in writing for them.

Because she's not a very good writer--Orzammar is proof enough of that--who is likely to have a hard time getting a job writing in other media, perhaps? If I remember correctly, her husband works at Bioware, so maybe it's because of him? Plenty of possible reasons to want to write for video games even if you don't enjoy playing them.

 

[Valnen]

but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the argument because it wasn't worded in the most friendliest fashion.

I disagree with this. If you can't be civil with your criticism it doesn't deserve to be listened to.

 

[sonicmj1]

Where exactly did I say these people were justified in making death threats? They're obviously fringe trolls. Nobody deserves death threats for being bad at their job.

You made an assumption that if someone were good at their job (as we consider Amy Hennig to be), they wouldn't get death threats. There's no basis for it.

I think that you're correct to some extent that internet harassment happens to game developers of all kinds. But I think it happens much more easily to female developers. Just look at how easily Jade Raymond became a target just because she was a public face for the original Assassin's Creed.

As Hepler says in the article:

[Internet harassment is] something that comes up in almost every conversation with female developers. Overall, people seem to try to shrug it off publicly and fume privately, and younger women contemplating the field are reconsidering whether they have the stomach to handle what it currently asks of them."

That said, I don't really want to make this topic about which gender has it worse, because the whole pattern of behavior is disgusting, and it happens too much to everyone online.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I disagree with this. If you can't be civil with your criticism it doesn't deserve to be listened to.

Also: people who generally shout cuss words or nastiness usually don't have any in-depth criticism beyond "do this" and "don't do this".

 

[patapuf]

I complete disagree.

What matters is the criticism and the evidence used to support that criticism. Any language used outside that is completely irrelevant. Obviously death threats are over the line and unacceptable but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the argument because it wasn't worded in the most friendliest fashion.

It's not about sugarcoating. It's about being polite. Or, at the very least, refrain from insults.

If you can't do that you are not interested in having a discussion anyway.

 

[Shengar]

I complete disagree.

What matters is the criticism and the evidence used to support that criticism. Any language used outside that is completely irrelevant. Obviously death threats are over the line and unacceptable but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the argument because it wasn't worded in the most friendliest fashion.

I know some people can make argument and criticism with snarky notion and sarcasm. But threat to your family or anything that is not related to your work inside an argument meant that criticism already lose half of its credibility. I think it still be the best for people to be at least civil with their argument, if they can't be polite with it.

 

[AppleMIX]

I disagree with this. If you can't be civil with your criticism it doesn't deserve to be listened to.

It's not about sugarcoating. It's about being polite. Or, at the very least, refrain from insults.

If you can't do that you are not interested in having a discussion anyway.

Here why this is wrong

"Hey dumbass, the sky is blue"

Just because I used the word dumbass doesn't mean the sky is somehow less blue.

Sure, I would assume most people who are capable of making a good arguments would be less prone to throwing out insults but it is hardly a absolute.

I know some people can make argument and criticism with snarky notion and sarcasm. But threat to your family or anything that is not related to your work inside an argument meant that criticism already lose half of its credibility. I think it still be the best for people to be at least civil with their argument, if they can't be polite with it.

I agree.

What's the original thread title that make the OP banned?

I would assume so.

 

[fertygo]

What's the original thread title that make the OP banned?

 

[Bundy]

Video game companies should never, ever hire someone that doesn't play video games.

What?

 

[Aaron]

Here why this is wrong

"Hey dumbass, the sky is blue"

Just because I used the word dumbass doesn't mean the sky is somehow less blue.

Sure, I would assume most people who are capable of making a good arguments would be less prone to throwing out insults but it is hardly a absolute.

Except that's not building an argument. That's being an asshole. Stating a fact in a sweary manner isn't criticism. If anything, I would assume you lack critical thinking skills from assuming someone else wouldn't know the obvious.

 

[AppleMIX]

Except that's not building an argument. That's being an asshole. Stating a fact in a sweary manner isn't criticism. If anything, I would assume you lack critical thinking skills from assuming someone else wouldn't know the obvious.

You can make a argument and be an asshole. The point of that was to point how logically unsound it is.

 

[Freshmaker]

Really gotta call her a horrible writer in a thread about people threatening her family?

Death threats aside, she did say she wanted games to play themselves so people didn't have to bother playing them to see the dating simulation unfold.

 

[KittenMaster]

Apparently stating facts or giving criticism gives reason to insult somebody. If you hurt their feelings, it's their fault for not listening to your criticism, of course!

 

[dimb]

I remember when Hepler chastised people on twitter by posting:

"I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either."

 

[TaroYamada]

I'm not understanding the argument here? Because some folks sent death threats the critiques from other individuals about her views are irrelevant?

 

[Fornaximus]

You made an assumption that if someone were good at their job (as we consider Amy Hennig to be), they wouldn't get death threats. There's no basis for it.

I think that you're correct to some extent that internet harassment happens to game developers of all kinds. But I think it happens much more easily to female developers. Just look at how easily Jade Raymond became a target just because she was a public face for the original Assassin's Creed.

As Hepler says in the article:



That said, I don't really want to make this topic about which gender has it worse, because the whole pattern of behavior is disgusting, and it happens too much to everyone online.

Well that's a silly point to make. I could say "prove to me that 'Joe Gamedev' hasn't received death threats", but that would be asinine. My point in referencing Hennig was that she is generally beloved by the gaming community as far as she's known, where Hepler's reputation is far less stellar because of things she's said and games she's possibly helped ruin (let's be honest, there's plenty of blame to go around at BioWare for DA2). Controversy brings out the fringe, not gender.

 

[AppleMIX]

Apparently stating facts or giving criticism gives reason to insult somebody. If you hurt their feelings, it's their fault for not listening to your criticism, of course!

Not the argument I making (again nice strawman)

My argument is that you shouldn't ignore criticism simply because someone threw out a insult with it.

Not that insulting people is justified if it is accompanied with criticism.

 

[Aaron]

You can make a argument and be an asshole. The point of that was to point how logically unsound it is.

All you'll be doing is undermining your own argument to the listener. That's not very logical.

 

[Tiglet]

What's the original thread title that make the OP banned?

"Terrible bioware writer leaves..."

something like that.

 

[Vagabundo]

This is rather nauseating, to put it mildly.

I'm also not entirely sure why people keep claiming she's a bad writer, considerign she wrote what was probably the best parts of Origins (Orzammar, Dwarf Noble Origin).

They were the parts I played through, very enjoyable.

I do hope the scumbags are caught. I'm getting so sick of internet dogpilling and all the threats and harassment that goes with it.

 

[SystemBug]

fucking /v/

 

[AppleMIX]

All you'll be doing is undermining your own argument to the listener. That's not very logical.

Simply because you don't like how the argument was delivered doesn't make it any less valid or logical.

 

[grandjedi6]

Because she's not a very good writer--Orzammar is proof enough of that--who is likely to have a hard time getting a job writing in other media, perhaps? If I remember correctly, her husband works at Bioware, so maybe it's because of him? Plenty of possible reasons to want to write for video games even if you don't enjoy playing them.

What’s a geeky thing about you?
Just one? I don’t know if I can narrow it down that far. Let’s see… I fell in love with my husband over a Vampire game, while all the other guys were in the back room having their characters attack each other. I was under contract for a Shadowrun supplement the day I graduated from college; I came home and wrote a chapter of “Cyberpirates” in my cap and gown. I founded a gaming convention (JohnCon in Baltimore) when I was 18, which is now in its 16th year (eek!). I once stood on line overnight for the Star Wars re-releases even though I was leaving town the next day and couldn’t see the movie – I just wanted to hang out with the people on line. My five year old confidently uses the term “idle animation,” when discussing her Dora videogames. I brought my son home from the hospital in a “Hero of Ferelden” onesie…

Is that enough?

Do you have any advice for those wishing to get into the video game industry?
If you don’t have a pressing need to make money, do a little time working for tabletop roleplaying games. It’s fairly easy to break in, because they pay peanuts, but you learn a ton about game design from working with dice systems. And since most videogame designers (certainly of RPGs) are huge tabletop game geeks, it’s a great credit to have when applying for jobs. Most people in the tabletop field end up drifting into videogames eventually, since you can live on what they pay you, so you’ll also make contacts who can end up being helpful down the line.

My entry into games came in college when I met my now-husband and was introduced to Vampire and Shadowrun. Having spent my high school years writing and trying to sell short stories, I immediately thought about trying to do some professional writing for RPGs, and by the time we graduated college, Chris Hepler (now a writer on Mass Effect) and I had written several books for Shadowrun, Earthdawn and Paranoia. We then took a detour in Hollywood for a few years, but it was a very natural gravitation back toward games which brought us to GDC to meet Bioware. After six years in Hollywood, when we were still calling “extras” “NPCs,” we figured maybe we were in the wrong field.

So she likes games and gaming stuff, but doesn't like combat heavy games. So she writes for table top games and RPGs. Makes sense to me.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I remember when Hepler chastised people on twitter by posting:

That's equal to a death threat how?

Simply because you don't like how the argument was delivered doesn't make it any less valid or logical.

You seem to think you're being smart by being pedantic about degrees of language and what exactly constitutes criticism.

I assure you that you're not.

 

[KittenMaster]

My argument is that you shouldn't ignore criticism simply because someone threw out a insult with it.

I don't hold criticism with such untouchable regard that people should let themselves submit themselves to just anybody. People need to have self-respect somewhere.

If the criticism is so valid that it needs to be heard, then they'll eventually hear it one way or another.

 

[Protome]

Not the argument I making (again nice strawman)

My argument is that you shouldn't ignore criticism simply because someone threw out a insult with it.

Not that insulting people is justified if it is accompanied with criticism.

Your argument is objectively wrong. If you can't express yourself in an intelligent, critical way then yes, your criticisms will be ignored and the disgusting death threats will be what is focussed on. The criticism is overlooked if the person behind the keyboard can't express them.

 

[dimb]

That's equal to a death threat how?

I...didn't say it was. I still feel it's a relevant piece of information regarding the situation and why things might have gone the way they did.

 

[AppleMIX]

That's equal to a death threat how?



You seem to think you're being smart by being pedantic about degrees of language and what exactly constitutes criticism.

I assure you that you're not.

First off that is a ad hominem.

Holy shit could you be anymore of a fucking hypocrite? How the fuck am I supposed to take your own argument seriously when you're calling me not smart (AKA a insult) and tell me that arguments should all be done respectfully.

Jesus Christ.

Your argument is objectively wrong. If you can't express yourself in an intelligent, critical way then yes, your criticisms will be ignored and the disgusting death threats will be what is focussed on. The criticism is overlooked if the person behind the keyboard can't express them.

That is not what objective means.

 

[Gormless Noodle]

No, that's just stupidity. The stuff I see on Facebook leads me to believe it is not a problem of anonymity.

This.

But regarding the main point of the thread: What can anyone do about it? The sheer amount of rage people can build up in themselves over things that are seemingly irrelevant, is just insane. And there doesn't seem to be much in the way of law enforcement to make it stop, since it's just so overwhelmingly frequent.

 

[Protome]

I...didn't say it was. I still feel it's a relevant piece of information regarding the situation and why things might have gone the way they did.

Well you're right to some extent. Her posting that light hearted, kinda funny, way of shrugging off the abuse she was receiving showed that she was strong enough to put up with the harassment. Which shows how bad the harassment proceeded to get.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I...didn't say it was. I still feel it's a relevant piece of information regarding the situation and why things might have gone the way they did.

It's not her fault someone decided to threaten her children in a very specific way.

She didn't "make the situation worse" or whatever.

How the fuck am I supposed to take your own argument seriously when you're calling me not smart (AKA a insult).

I never said you were dumb.

What I said was it seemed like you thought it was a good thing to say in an effort to sound like you know something we don't. And I said it wasn't. You're assuming we don't understand the concept of criticism vs. hate speech (which, by the way, is completely insulting).

That's it.

 

[sonicmj1]

I remember when Hepler chastised people on twitter by posting:

That wasn't her finest moment.

There's a sidebar in the article with 10 tips from the Cyberbullying Research Center for stopping harassment, and number one is "Do not retaliate." Her tweet didn't justify what followed, but it wound up making her a bigger target.

Well that's a silly point to make. I could say "prove to me that 'Joe Gamedev' hasn't received death threats", but that would be asinine. My point in referencing Hennig was that she is generally beloved by the gaming community as far as she's known, where Hepler's reputation is far less stellar because of things she's said and games she's possibly helped ruin (let's be honest, there's plenty of blame to go around at BioWare for DA2). Controversy brings out the fringe, not gender.

Controversy is a bigger magnet for harassment than a single personal factor like gender. I think we agree more than we disagree.

Still, it's hard to tell where controversy is going to come from, and people go after easier targets. I mean, consider Hepler's case. When she started getting all that harassment from the internet, it was because a five-year-old interview that got dredged up because a huge team of people made a substandard game rushed by their publisher. But she was an easier target than other Bioware writers at the time, because of that super-old quote and because of her gender.

Gender isn't the sole factor in who receives threats (Greg Zeschuck is another subject in this very article), but it can amplify the worst parts of internet harassment.

 

[dimb]

She didn't "make the situation worse" or whatever.

Then what effect do you think openly taunting detractors has?

 

[Aaron]

First off that is a ad hominem.

Holy shit could you be anymore of a fucking hypocrite? How the fuck am I supposed to take your own argument seriously when you're calling me not smart (AKA a insult) and tell me that arguments should all be done respectfully.

Jesus Christ.

... wait, have you been trolling the entire time? Wow, that's dedication.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Then what effect do you think openly taunting detractors has?

You're implying that she somehow "made" people give her death threats.

That is laughable.

 

[C4Lukins]

I don't know all the details, but from what I understand her writing and her lack of caring for videogames themselves is why she got the hate.

Can you quote some of her writing for me. Oh and a few quotes maybe where she admits to not caring about video games. I feel I am only getting half the picture here and you seem to have the rest.

 

[dimb]

You're implying that she somehow "made" people give her death threats.

That is laughable.

The world is a funny place.

 

[questionmark]

I am very sorry for the way she was treated. There is no excuse for such behavior.

I am very glad she is no longer part of the industry.

 

[Fornaximus]

Controversy is a bigger magnet for harassment than a single personal factor like gender. I think we agree more than we disagree.

Still, it's hard to tell where controversy is going to come from, and people go after easier targets. I mean, consider Hepler's case. When she started getting all that harassment from the internet, it was because a five-year-old interview that got dredged up because a huge team of people made a substandard game rushed by their publisher. But she was an easier target than other Bioware writers at the time, because of that super-old quote and because of her gender.

Gender isn't the sole factor in who receives threats (Greg Zeschuck is another subject in this very article), but it can amplify the worst parts of internet harassment.

Again, I think it was what she said more than her biology. Angry fans were looking for a target, and here comes a YouTube video on a platter. People will target her gender in the process, but a lot of that is merely a lazy attempt to cut deep. If you're fat, they'll use that. If you're a woman, they'll use that. If you're black, they'll use that. Whatever they can to get under your skin the deepest. It comes from a place of doing whatever they possibly can to hurt you verbally more than it comes from some serious anti-female agenda.