Support NeoGAF

[TCRS]

It just happened now so no news article at the moment. But the House of Commons has rejected military involvement.

From the Guardian live blog:

- The government has lost by 285 votes to 272 - a majority of 13.
- MPs have voted down a government attempt to secure provisional authorisation for military intervention in Syria.
- David Cameron has said he will respect the decision, and not order an attack.
- One MP shouted "resign" at Cameron.


Ed Milband stands up on a point of order.

He asks for an assurance that the govenrment will not use the royal perogative to start military intervention.

Cameron says he believes in respecting the will of the House.

He says he "gets" the message.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2013/aug/29/mps-debate-syria-live-blog

 

[Oersted]

Democracy still working?

 

[RickD]

Good. I was worried this might sneak through

 

[commedieu]

How hard is it to get a Visa in the Uk?

I want to leave :\

 

[JohnTinker]

Can we get the same thing here in the House & Senate? Please?

 

[TCRS]

Cameron's full response to Miliband's question:

I can give that assurance. Let me say, the House has not voted for either motion tonight. I strongly believe in the need for a tough response to the use of chemical weapons, but I also believe in respecting the will of this House of Commons. It is very clear tonight that, while the House has not passed a motion, it is clear to me that the British parliament, reflecting the views of the British people, does not want to see British military action. I get that and the government will act accordingly.

 

[Darklord]

Cameron says he believes in respecting the will of the House.

Until the White House tells him otherwise.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Good.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Good.

Stay out of this one Dave. Ed Miliband may just have saved your bacon...

 

[Meadows]

A bright day in the history of the UK.

 

[Grover Cleveland]

"I will respect the will of the House"

Too bad he was talking about this one:

 

[kurtrussell]

Fantastic news! What right is it of ours to interfere if the head of an entirely separate country wants to use an illegal nerve agent on thousands of his own country's children?

Bloody Cameron! He just wants to get that oil again, just like last time!!

Oh wait....

 

[bonercop]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-23884963

Here's the debate on the issue.

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

Okay so he's done the right thing and people are still giving him flak?

We're not going in. The vote failed and he's respecting that.

 

[Funky Papa]

 

[killer_clank]

This whole situation is so awful I can't be happy at either outcome, tbh.

 

[dapperbandit]

thank god, that was a closer vote than I expected

 

[TCRS]

A bright day in the history of the UK.

Seriously, hopefully this is the day we stopped being the US's lap dog.

 

[Brera]

So basically...its okay to use chemical weapons against your own people?

How many billions and how many Iraqi lives did it cost to get here?

 

[Funky Papa]

Fantastic news! What right is it of ours to interfere if the head of an entirely separate country wants to use an illegal nerve agent on thousands of his own country's children?

Bloody Cameron! He just wants to get that oil again, just like last time!!

Oh wait....

So basically...its okay to use chemical weapons against your own people?

How many billions and how many Iraqi lives did it cost to get here?

Evidence. Produce it.

 

[JonathanEx]

Good.

Stay out of this one Dave. Ed Miliband may just have saved your bacon...

Mm. Amusingly a bit awkward for No 10 considering the language they've been briefing the papers regards to Miliband...

 

[Brera]

Evidence. Produce it.

You prove it didn't happen!

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

So if the UN report says it was chemical weapons or if somebody in Syria uses them again? Then what?

It made sense to wait for the UN report, but honestly, if it was chemical weapons, I'd rather the international community actively prevent it from happing like they signed up to do.

 

[DoctorPayne]

Fantastic news! What right is it of ours to interfere if the head of an entirely separate country wants to use an illegal nerve agent on thousands of his own country's children?

Bloody Cameron! He just wants to get that oil again, just like last time!!

Oh wait....

Problems with this paragraph:

- if you want to talk legality (not morality, of course), it would be the missile strikes rather than the chemical weapons that would be prohibited by international law

- "thousands of children" have not been killed by chemical weapons in Syria

- indications are that the use of the weapons wasn't actually ordered by the "head of the country," but rather by some other element in the government/military

 

[TCRS]

couple of tweets (copied from the guardian live blog):

Paul Goodman @PaulGoodmanCH
1) With some 30 Labour MPs absent, it was Tory ones that sunk Cameron this evening. Wounding blow to his authority.

2) Breach with America finally comes when a Conservative Prime Minister is in Downing Street - and one on good terms with President.

3) Big implications for British foreign policy: is it now in effect isolationist?

Mark D'Arcy @DArcyTiP
Wow! Parliament has taken war powers. No PM can now launch military action without MPs consent. V big constitutional moment.

Owen Jones @OwenJones84
Worth pointing out how historic this is. British has been subservient to US foreign policy since Suez in 1956. A big moment.

Nick Robinson @bbcnickrobinson
Ed Miliband just applauded as walked into Labour whips office after shock government defeat

 

[Casimir]

Damn.


Now the British can't share some of the monetary cost associated with any likely action.

 

[Funky Papa]

You prove it didn't happen!

The bodies are real, but nobody knows who did it. Until that part is resolved, an attack should be out of the question.

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-aff...ica/319309-ap-syria-intelligence-no-slam-dunk

American intelligence connecting Syrian President Bashar Assad with an alleged chemical attack that allegedly killed hundreds of civilians is not a “slam dunk,” The Associated Press reported, citing intelligence officials.

According to AP sources, there is uncertainty about who controls Syria's chemical weapon supplies, and even if the government launched the attack, it is not clear the strike was ordered by Assad or one of his closest deputies.

 

[Meadows]

This changes everything.

So happy! Now let's get into talks with the UN and try and sort this out diplomatically.

 

[SolarPowered]

couple of tweets (copied from the guardian live blog):

Sounds like a pretty big day.

 

[Jackpot]

Evidence. Produce it.

For me I would be just as in favour of it if the rebels had done it. It doesn't matter if Assad ordered the attack himself or if it was a rogue commander. Syria no longer controls its chemical weapon stockpiles and it is a weapon that can only be used indiscriminately on a large population. We should destroy those stockpiles. We don't need to take sides or put boots on the ground.

I do believe we have a duty to step in in such cases of civilian massacring. If it weren't for Iraq tarnishing the whole idea of humanitarian intervention we could have avoided the genocide in Sudan. Hell, if we'd struck the first time chemical weapons were used in Syria this larger atrocity would have been prevented. I don't care about borders when it comes to stopping someone casually wiping out thousands of people at the push of a button, and I'm ready to accept whatever blowback might impact on our country in exchange for the lives saved over there. Would you have been in favour of a military strike to stop Saddam from gassing the Kurds if you had had the opportunity?

 

[Yen]

Tom McTague ‏@MirrorMcTague
Michael Gove turned around and shouted at his fellow Tory MPs: "Disgrace, disgrace, disgrace."

A few other reporters claiming this too.

 

[Orbis]

Sounds like a pretty big day.

It's pretty historic in terms of significance, especially in terms of our military relationship with the US.

 

[Fari]

Good to see that sanity has prevailed.

 

[Jezbollah]

Tom McTague ‏@MirrorMcTague
Michael Gove turned around and shouted at his fellow Tory MPs: "Disgrace, disgrace, disgrace."

A few other reporters claiming this too.

Being reported on Sky News in an interview with Angus Robertson (MP, SNP)

Edit: Mr Robertson saying some Conservatives calling for a revote due to an issue with the first vote.

 

[lastplayed]

Well done.

 

[daviyoung]

Fine.

 

[Shake Appeal]

The bodies are real, but nobody knows who did it. Until that part is resolved, an attack should be out of the question.

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-aff...ica/319309-ap-syria-intelligence-no-slam-dunk

Much more important than 'proving' the Syrian regime did this (because it seems clear) is respecting the international institutions and processes we, the community of nations, claim to be committed to.

I'm in favour of intervention, but only multilateral intervention after the UN has been allowed to do its job and sufficient evidence has been put in front of the world's nations.

 

[DirtyManos]

I'm glad that maybe cooler heads are prevailing , and this doesn't exactly relate to this announcement, but I'm worried that nothing will be done in response to the chemical attack.

All we know for sure is that chemical weapons were used. The world cannot let it go unpunished. There cannot be e a precedent set in the 21st century that this is fair game. These are the most heinous of weapons, and I hope that after all is said and done, a victory won't be that we did nothing.

 

[Tex117]

It's pretty historic in terms of significance, especially in terms of our military relationship with the US.

Until the U.S. acts or doesn't act.

 

[TCRS]

This was truly a great debate, I listened to all of it. Very calm and respectful. But of course there had to be one idiot (Michael Gove)...

 

[forknknife]

Good.

Meanwhile, in fucking Spain, the government only dares to say that "they would do the right thing and be with our allies" which to me translates to "we will do whatever the US says because we are fucking puppets and don't give a shit about our people... or any people, actually"

 

[heliconsoul]

Tom McTague ‏@MirrorMcTague
Michael Gove turned around and shouted at his fellow Tory MPs: "Disgrace, disgrace, disgrace."

A few other reporters claiming this too.

I'd expect nothing less from this enormous cunt. As the husband of a teacher I really hate this man.

 

[Funky Papa]

For me I would be just as in favour of it if the rebels had done it. It doesn't matter if Assad ordered the attack himself or if it was a rogue commander. Syria no longer controls its chemical weapon stockpiles and it is a weapon that can only be used indiscriminately on a large population. We should destroy those stockpiles. We don't need to take sides or put boots on the ground.

I do believe we have a duty to step in in such cases of civilian massacring. If it weren't for Iraq tarnishing the whole idea of humanitarian intervention we could have avoided the genocide in Sudan. Hell, if we'd struck the first time chemical weapons were used in Syria this larger atrocity would have been prevented. I don't care about borders when it comes to stopping someone casually wiping out thousands of people at the push of a button, and I'm ready to accept whatever blowback might impact on our country in exchange for the lives saved over there. Would you have been in favour of a military strike to stop Saddam from gassing the Kurds if you had had the opportunity?

This war has already claimed more than 100,000 lives. A single chemical attack doesn't make things suddenly horrifying when both sides are indiscriminately bombing the shit out of the other all day every day. If any, it's kind of gross to see how certain politicians are foaming at the mouth now that they finally have an opportunity to attack (something they wanted since day 1).

Good.

Meanwhile, in fucking Spain, the government only dares to say that "they would do the right thing and be with our allies" which to me translates to "we will do whatever the US says because we are fucking puppets and don't give a shit about our people... or any people, actually"

I expect nothing else. The government should also expect heavy opposition from the public. This war could be every bit as unpopular as Iraq's, maybe even more.

 

[SomethingInTheSea]

So if the UN report says it was chemical weapons or if somebody in Syria uses them again? Then what?

It made sense to wait for the UN report, but honestly, if it was chemical weapons, I'd rather the international community actively prevent it from happing like they signed up to do.

then, assuming nobody else took any action, it would be a green light for the mass proliferation of chemical weapons as there would no longer be any special consequences for their use.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Glad to see this. Very glad Cameron says he will follow the vote; I hope he holds to that.

 

[finalboss2]

we did it reddit!

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Mm. Amusingly a bit awkward for No 10 considering the language they've been briefing the papers regards to Miliband...

I mean longer term. Yes the next couple of months might not be comfortable, but he still has a shot at 2015. With British boots on the ground in Syria (which is the endgame) that would be impossible.

As for Ed their briefings will still work, especially if the UN do find that Assad used chemical weapons and Labour have blocked a British response.

 

[Tex117]

for Funky papa:

And really, this is what we should be focused on.

 

[DirtRiver]

Good, they have no business there (even if Hassad was the one ordering it). However, I don't believe we will not have a military action in Syria and there will certainly be a certain circumvention of the law by calling it 'peacekeeping' or any other disintegration of the concept of war.

 

[Mr Nash]

This was truly a great debate, I listened to all of it. Very calm and respectful. But of course there had to be one idiot (Michael Gove)...

Every time I see that guy in the news I have to wonder if he's a real person. The expression on face and the various decisions always makes me think he is the embodiment of parody, but he's an actual person making policy. >_<