Support NeoGAF

[Empty]

good. i think cameron was trying to move way too quickly. i also approve of parliamentary democracy being used properly.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

If anyone is interested, this is a live broadcast at the moment. I've been listening to it for a while
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23877247

 

[littleworm]

This war has already claimed more than 100,000 lives. A single chemical attack doesn't make things suddenly horrifying when both sides are indiscriminately bombing the shit out of the other all day every day. If any, it's kind of gross to see how certain politicians are foaming at the mouth now that they finally have an opportunity to attack (something they wanted since day 1).

True, but if indeed chemical weapons were used, that means that the security of these weapons can no longer be guaranteed, and this poses a much graver and wide spread global security issue.

 

[Jackpot]

This war has already claimed more than 100,000 lives. A single chemical attack doesn't make things suddenly horrifying when both sides are indiscriminately bombing the shit out of the other all day every day. If any, it's kind of gross to see how certain politicians are foaming at the mouth now that they finally have an opportunity to attack (something they wanted since day 1).

Which is why I was in favour of support much earlier in this war, before the moderates on the rebel side got desperate and everyone turned to the groups with existing arms supplies and war experience, i.e. the radicals.

And it's worth saving a few thousand lives even if 100,000 have already perished.

 

[War Peaceman]

I'd expect nothing less from this enormous cunt. As the husband of a teacher I really hate this man.

Yes, he's an odious cunt. One of the biggest hawks in cabinet and probably Parliament too.

It feels like Labour aren't getting the credit here that they deserve , and of course the others who voted against it.

 

[Orbis]

Edit: Dupe post

 

[Fox Mulder]

wow, it's nice to see democracy works somewhere.

it's truly awful that chemical weapons were used, but we don't have to rush in guns blazing or dropping missiles as punishment. The whole war has been full of atrocities and both sides are awful, and intervening in these messy things has almost never worked out.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

For me I would be just as in favour of it if the rebels had done it. It doesn't matter if Assad ordered the attack himself or if it was a rogue commander. Syria no longer controls its chemical weapon stockpiles and it is a weapon that can only be used indiscriminately on a large population. We should destroy those stockpiles. We don't need to take sides or put boots on the ground.

I do believe we have a duty to step in in such cases of civilian massacring. If it weren't for Iraq tarnishing the whole idea of humanitarian intervention we could have avoided the genocide in Sudan. Hell, if we'd struck the first time chemical weapons were used in Syria this larger atrocity would have been prevented. I don't care about borders when it comes to stopping someone casually wiping out thousands of people at the push of a button, and I'm ready to accept whatever blowback might impact on our country in exchange for the lives saved over there. Would you have been in favour of a military strike to stop Saddam from gassing the Kurds if you had had the opportunity?

blowback might mean hundreds dead on this side of the pond, you sure you willing to do that just to stop.....someone from killing hundreds when there have already been 100K killed? sorry but Syrians have to solve this war themselves.

 

[Orbis]

Until the U.S. acts or doesn't act.

True, but it's already completely derailed the intentions of the UK Government, which was to follow the US intentions. I'd be interested to hear some US reactions to this. It may sway the US to at least lean more towards what comes from the inspectors' report and the security council.

Also, some confirmation that there will categorically be no UK military action:

2205: Defence Secretary Philip Hammond says the US "will be disappointed that Britain will not be involved" in any military strike. "I don't expect that the lack of British participation will stop any action," he adds.

Mr Hammond confirmed to Newsnight there would not now be any British military involvement in Syria. "I hoped we would carry the argument but we understand there is a deep well of suspicion about involvement in the Middle East," he said.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Thank you for having some sense, UK!

 

[Garjon]

Good news; when the intelligence service can't even find supporting evidence, it's definitely time to step back. It's also good to see parliament working for a change.

Tom McTague ‏@MirrorMcTague
Michael Gove turned around and shouted at his fellow Tory MPs: "Disgrace, disgrace, disgrace."

A few other reporters claiming this too.

I'm not even surprised, the man seems to have very little regard for the democratic process based on his education reforms.

 

[Jezbollah]

The thing to remember here is that 30 labour MPs couldn't make the recall and thus didn't vote.

If there was one thing worthwhile about the 2003 war in Iraq, then what has happened tonight is it.

 

[bonercop]

I do believe we have a duty to step in in such cases of civilian massacring. If it weren't for Iraq tarnishing the whole idea of humanitarian intervention we could have avoided the genocide in Sudan. Hell, if we'd struck the first time chemical weapons were used in Syria this larger atrocity would have been prevented. I don't care about borders when it comes to stopping someone casually wiping out thousands of people at the push of a button, and I'm ready to accept whatever blowback might impact on our country in exchange for the lives saved over there. Would you have been in favour of a military strike to stop Saddam from gassing the Kurds if you had had the opportunity?

It's not just Iraq, though. Iraq is simply the most recent and perhaps most transparently disingenuous "humanitarian" intervention. They almost never turn out well for anyone. I mean, can you give me an example of an intervention that really ended up saving lives in the long run?

 

[MLH]

I'm a little torn on the situation, on the one hand innocents are being hurt by terrible chemical weapons, on the other we have no idea who is using and for what purposes. I think parliament made the right decision here, at least for the time being.

What did we intend to do if we did agree for military intervention? We can't destroy the chemical weapons storage - that would hurt more people or even allow the weapons to fall into (even more) dangerous hands.
So we decide to side with the rebels and attack Assad's forces, despite what we say about this not being political it ultimately ends that way. Russia sides with Assad due to the economic benefits (oil and weapons) and we choose the rebels for a potential future relationship (again for oil and weapons trade).
IMO we need to remain neutral and stop the fighting/ use of chemical weapons.

 

[Garjon]

Watching the news, it seems that parliament was dead set against any sort of involvement in Syria rather than waiting for stronger evidence or a UN go ahead.

 

[OriginalThinking]

How hard is it to get a Visa in the Uk?

I want to leave :

Why? Oh, wait you want to come here. Lol.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

The thing to remember here is that 30 labour MPs couldn't make the recall and thus didn't vote.

If there was one thing worthwhile about the 2003 war in Iraq, then what has happened tonight is it.

Yup, in reality it's Tories that voted it down. If those 20-25 Tories had abstained or voted for then the government would have won the day.

Labour voting against wouldn't have had the numbers, even if all of their MPs had turned up, it is Tory backbenchers that have stopped a Syrian intervention which is why Gove and other neo-cons are not happy right now.

 

[Acorn]

Good news; when the intelligence service can't even find supporting evidence, it's definitely time to step back. It's also good to see parliament working for a change.



I'm not even surprised, the man seems to have very little regard for the democratic process based on his education reforms.

He is the biggest arse of the govt. With his victorian bullshit ( points to IDS too for this, yes I know he spent a little time in Govan he is still a disgusting cunt).

 

[Yen]

Barry Gardiner MP ‏@BarryGardiner
Gove loses it in the lobby! Accusing colleagues of supporting Assad in a very high pitched voice.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I mean longer term. Yes the next couple of months might not be comfortable, but he still has a shot at 2015. With British boots on the ground in Syria (which is the endgame) that would be impossible.

As for Ed their briefings will still work, especially if the UN do find that Assad used chemical weapons and Labour have blocked a British response.

Doesn't the split show that the Tories are ultimately the ones who blocked a British response? Without them choosing not to support Cameron, this would have likely gone through.

 

[Josh7289]

VICTORY!

Maybe this will help put some pressure on the US to not attack!

If we want to help, let's do something that will actually save lives rather than take them, like sending more humanitarian aid.

 

[MLH]

Barry Gardiner MP ‏@BarryGardiner
Gove loses it in the lobby! Accusing colleagues of supporting Assad in a very high pitched voice.

Hmmm but I thought this wasn't about politics Mr. Gove

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Barry Gardiner MP ‏@BarryGardiner
Gove loses it in the lobby! Accusing colleagues of supporting Assad in a very high pitched voice.

I really hope this has been caught on camera.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Barry Gardiner MP ‏@BarryGardiner
Gove loses it in the lobby! Accusing colleagues of supporting Assad in a very high pitched voice.

I expect nothing less from a neo-con like Gove. Thankfully his ilk (Blair, David Miliband, Mandy) are no longer in power and there should not be a military intervention now.

The situation is shit, I don't doubt that, but anything we do will make it worse.

Doesn't the split show that the Tories are ultimately the ones who blocked a British response? Without them choosing not to support Cameron, this would have likely gone through.

Yup, in reality it's Tories that voted it down. If those 20-25 Tories had abstained or voted for then the government would have won the day.

Labour voting against wouldn't have had the numbers, even if all of their MPs had turned up, it is Tory backbenchers that have stopped a Syrian intervention which is why Gove and other neo-cons are not happy right now.

.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Why? Oh, wait you want to come here. Lol.

Why not?

 

[kurtrussell]

It feels like Labour aren't getting the credit here that they deserve , and of course the others who voted against it.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Why do you think Milliband opposed the vote? Political point scoring and opportunism at one of the most tasteless times possible.

Milliband is well aware that the majority of the public are shielded from the true horrors of this latest atrocity (hearing "a bunch of people got gassed" on the news is a million miles away from being confronted with the cold, hard, appalling, shocking truth, as can be witnessed at http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/Syriagas_2013/bp2.jpg) as the media can not and will not report the full 100% uncensored story.

If I was a cynic, I'd consider the whole Labour approach to this vote to be one of atonement for the last "let's invade Iraq!" fuck up and a vile attempt at appeasement of the common masses.

Or maybe I just do not understand how anyone can witness images of hundreds of corpses of children, literally piled up and not feel compelled to act with as much force as necessary to prevent the inevitable re-occurance. In this situation, it seems to me that to stand by and wait it out is a completely immoral stance to take.

 

[saelz8]

Poor Obama

He's all alone.

 

[TCRS]

VICTORY!

Maybe this will help put some pressure on the US to not attack!

If we want to help, let's do something that will actually save lives rather than take them, like sending more humanitarian aid.

Unlikely:

President Obama is prepared to move ahead with a limited military strike on Syria, administration officials said on Thursday, even with a rejection of such action by Britain’s Parliament, an increasingly restive Congress, and lacking an endorsement from the United Nations Security Council.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/30/us/politics/obama-syria.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

 

[dapperbandit]

it's times like these I feel I have to see what /pol/ is saying.

I'm glad I did, hilarious reactions. Naturally, they worship Assad.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Why do you think Milliband opposed the vote? Political point scoring and opportunism at one of the most tasteless times possible.

Milliband is well aware that the majority of the public are shielded from the true horrors of this latest atrocity (hearing "a bunch of people got gassed" on the news is a million miles away from being confronted with the cold, hard, appalling, shocking truth, as can be witnessed at http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/Syriagas_2013/bp2.jpg) as the media can not and will not report the full 100% uncensored story.

If I was a cynic, I'd consider the whole Labour approach to this vote to be one of atonement for the last "let's invade Iraq!" fuck up and a vile attempt at appeasement of the common masses.

Or maybe I just do not understand how anyone can witness images of hundreds of corpses of children, literally piled up and not feel compelled to act with as much force as necessary to prevent the inevitable re-occurance. In this situation, it seems to me that to stand by and wait it out is a completely immoral stance to take.

There's been ample footage of dead bodies along with some very disturbing video of victims who suffered horrific burns in a napalm style bomb attack.

The idea that people are shielded from the truth is utter nonsense.

 

[Josh7289]

Unlikely:



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/30/us/politics/obama-syria.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

If he does authorize an attack, I cannot stress enough how much of a disappointment Obama will have turned out to be. No improvement over Bush.

 

[TCRS]

it's times like these I feel I have to see what /pol/ is saying.

I'm glad I did, hilarious reactions. Naturally, they worship Assad.

They are a hilarious bunch.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Almost 100 coalition MPs abstained or voted against the bill. Out of 359.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Michael Gove losing his shit. It's just glorious.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Did anyone do a Hugh Grant 'love actually' speech?

 

[Liha]

They are a hilarious bunch.

There was no germany.

edit: ok my fail

 

[Out of Working Order]

Great news.

 

[GSG Flash]

Thank god there are some level headed people in this world. The UK has done enough damage in the ME the last century, they don't need to make things worse.

I still think it was a false flag attack or a military commander gone rogue.

 

[King Boo]

"I will respect the will of the House"

Too bad he was talking about this one:

lmao. if i could rep you, i would.

 

[IslandHead]

I'm glad. I don't think Assad did the attack. It was either the rebels or a false flag operation. Geopolitically the US wants Russia out of the region so they want Assad gone.

The case against a US attack on Syria
There are, in fact, several compelling reasons as to why any US attack on Syria would be deemed illegal and unjustified from the vantage point of international law and global norms. First, the requirement of UN Security Council authorization under Chapter VII is not a minor obstacle that can be obviated by simply invoking the "responsibility to protect" doctrine which, as Pepe Escobar rightly says on this site (Obama set for holy Tomahawk war, Asia Times Online, August 27, 2013) is being corrupted into a unilateral license to wage war.

Second, there is strong circumstantial evidence that supports Damascus's defense of being clear of the August 21 attack: Damascus had consented to a UN inspection, and the investigators had arrived in Damascus to look into prior incidents, which the government insists were perpetrated by the rebels. Given the Syrian army's recent impressive victories, with help of the Lebanon's Hezbollah, the government had no need to resort to such desperate measures that were bound to backfire in the international community.

The absence of motivation on the part of Assad's regime should be compared to the desperate position of the Syrian opposition and its frantic search somehow to change the conflict's momentum in its favor.

In other words, the rebels had strong motivation, and certainly the will power and external support, to explode a deadly canister, cause mayhem and then blame the government - and thus give the US and its allies the proper excuse to launch an attack. Yet somehow, almost none of the US pundits, such as Richard Haas, the head of influential Council on Foreign Relations, who have been advocating a unilateral US strike on Syria have given the slightest attention to this important factor.

Fortunately, the international community today is more alert than it was in 2002 and 2003. That simply means that when a US secretary of State goes on record and claims solid evidence against an Arab leader, he inevitably conjures the image of his predecessor, Colin Powell, who deceived the international community about Iraq when he presented his "compelling evidence" at the Security Council in February 2003. Powell has since then come to "regret" in his autobiography his warmongering deception and, naturally, one wonders if present Secretary of State John Kerry will emulate him if the US goes to war against Syria, a war that is now labeled as a "limited strike" to take out Assad's WMD capability.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-03-290813.html

 

[Shantom]

There was no germany.

I had to take a second glance to see but it's actually a Spanish flag.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

There was no germany.

Spain.

 

[littleworm]

Thank god there are some level headed people in this world. The UK has done enough damage in the ME the last century, they don't need to make things worse.

I still think it was a false flag attack or a military commander gone rogue.

You do realize that this would be a even more dangerous situation correct?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

There was no germany.

It does only say 1800s, so there was a little bit of Germany for the last 29 years. They didn't use that flag, though - should have been this one:

EDIT: Or as someone pointed out, it could be the Spanish flag, although the colouring looks rather odd for that.

 

[pulsemyne]

As much as I think something should be done against Assad I cannot help but love the fact that Gove is going mental. What a festering piece of shit that man is.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

While I applaud the outcome of the vote, some of these political discussions here are pretty damn disturbing.

 

[TCRS]

Guardian live blog:

Sir Menzies Campbell, the former Lib Dem leader, has just told BBC News no one can remember when a government last lost a vote on a non-Europe foreign policy motion.

 

[AkuMifune]

You do realize that this would be a even more dangerous situation correct?

Doing nothing is apparently the most humane way to exist in the modern world. Doing nothing and talking about how the people doing something must be corrupt, power mad or greedy in some ridiculous fashion.

This is all because children can't fail elementary school anymore. You're all special snowflakes with warped senses of how the real world works.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

It also shows that Cameron is an amateur politician. If he had waited to recall Parliament until next week he would have won the vote. Enough people in his own party would be convinced if UN weapons inspectors rule that chemical weapons have been used by Assad. It would only have taken a few to change their votes or abstain to win.

Amateur hour from Cameron, still, a good result in the end for Britain. I'm thankful that Cameron has turned out to be quite a poor PM and politician right now...

 

[dapperbandit]

As much as I think something should be done against Assad I cannot help but love the fact that Gove is going mental. What a festering piece of shit that man is.

I heard about it but is there any footage outside of the live feed?