WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
- Thread starter Thraktor
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And It's a SM4.x part according to the documentation
No one said that, though... That was never stated or even implied by anyone here in the slightest way. How does any of this have any baring on the info provided?
phosphor112
Banned
SM4.x is DX10.x and SM5 is DX11. Right?
Does anyone think that Wind Waker is using some form of SSAO because it sure as hell seems like it to me judging from the most recent trailer: WWHD Story Trailer
And also by comparing these three pics (third one is for correct aspect ratio):
Can someone care to break down what they have improved upon?
And also by comparing these three pics (third one is for correct aspect ratio):
Can someone care to break down what they have improved upon?
lostinblue
Banned
Added 16:9 (obviously); self shadowing is now in; added extra pre-baked shadow maps to buildings, trees and objects, removed the horrible frame blur filter that depending on the camera distance sometimes blurred the full image result; introduced HDR.
Not so sure about SSAO as it's hard to say for sure, for all I know it could could be tone mapping and SSS or other set of (cheaper) techniques.
Not so sure about SSAO as it's hard to say for sure, for all I know it could could be tone mapping and SSS or other set of (cheaper) techniques.
Disorientator
Member
Maybe I haven't paid close attention to the past trailers but for some reason SSAO also came to mind when watching that Story trailer.
Really like how this shot looks.
King of Red Lions almost feels it's made out of clay.
Getting SSAO vibes for some reason - maybe it's the self-shadowing? (or some other technique as you mention)
lostinblue
Banned
It seems SSAO, I just don't go along with it "for sure" because in the era we live there are multiple ways to get there so, even though it's possible it might be something else too.
Sub surface scattering kinda looks the part too, actually:
Sans-bumpmapping and diffuse. It would really help to get that chinseled feel on the models; as for the rest, on top of that it might be just the lightning; seeing it's meant for realism and clearly HDR enabled but it's operating over a cel shaded game. That gives those color hues, mostly blue because of the sky being blue. The self shadowing also adds to it, of course.
As I said, not so sure regarding SSAO, the feel could probably be recreated using these probably cheaper methods or sum of them (and some of them are clearly in, anyway).
Sub surface scattering kinda looks the part too, actually:
Sans-bumpmapping and diffuse. It would really help to get that chinseled feel on the models; as for the rest, on top of that it might be just the lightning; seeing it's meant for realism and clearly HDR enabled but it's operating over a cel shaded game. That gives those color hues, mostly blue because of the sky being blue. The self shadowing also adds to it, of course.
As I said, not so sure regarding SSAO, the feel could probably be recreated using these probably cheaper methods or sum of them (and some of them are clearly in, anyway).
Disorientator
Member
Thanks for the breakdown man.
Could be the result of any combination of techniques I guess.
Just going by my untrained eye here
Could be the result of any combination of techniques I guess.
Just going by my untrained eye here
lostinblue
Banned
I'm not saying it's linearly the same thing regarding of what's being done; I'm implying that it could be so close you could say it's SSAO in this situation specially in regards to what it was before. Nothing in common, bar perhaps the combined results being akin to something we'd call something else.
In this case, clay'ish, featuring shadowed objects and good/realistic shading/lightning, we're after all looking at the final result and thinking how we got there; And I'm implying SSAO is probably not the only way even though if we compared them side by side they'd look different. The thing is, we are not looking at it side by side, we have the end result.
Anyway, I was just putting this out there; SSAO uses up a full backbuffer pass, it's not cheap in comparison to other methods, so it might be advantageous to do more with less. They could call that Fake SSAO for all I care, even though it's clearly not doing the same.
It seems SSAO, it might not be.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
It is, and a very apparent one, at that. Look at the Lion boat animated gif above - it has very apparent occlusion, which, on a second glance is also physically dubious. AO based entirely on depths and normals == SSAO, AKA fake. AO based on casted rays == proper AO.
I thought someone had already confirmed it had in SSAO this thread do to the dark halo they could see around the charactersd or something like that. I may be thinking of something else
Ah, found it.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=74149483&highlight=wind+waker#post74149483
Ah, found it.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=74149483&highlight=wind+waker#post74149483
Does anyone think that Wind Waker is using some form of SSAO because it sure as hell seems like it to me judging from the most recent trailer: WWHD Story Trailer
And also by comparing these three pics (third one is for correct aspect ratio):
Can someone care to break down what they have improved upon?
Why not realistic/real world looking graphics though ?
Because they wouldn't look as good and it would be a waste of resources... Not that I see how that question contributes to the discussion.
As for the SSAO thing. The fact that it has been brought in by 2 different people on two completely different occasions and pointed out in iamges leads me to believe that it very well may be using it. It also seems that link's model has had a few extra polygons thrown into the head, though I could be misreading the redone shadowing.
lwilliams3
Member
That simply wasn't the look they were going for. I believe it has been stated that they experimented with upgrading Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess too. It was decided to remake Wind Waker when they experimented with enchanting the game with the Wii U's power and got unexpected results.
I wonder about that, too. WW Link model was originally about 2800 polygons, so is possible. It would be interesting if the visual enchantments of the model was simply due to the inclusion of self-shadowing and other advanced effects.
freezamite
Banned
Considering that there is a complete day/night cycle on wind waker I would completely rule out this possibility. Real time shadows are cast from every on-screen object now and not only from Link like it happened on the original.
JordanN
Banned
Doesn't make sense to judge from such small screenshots (were edges become smaller than a pixel).
Models are the same. Right down to the sword and shield. And I don't think I'm going crazy. I've beat the game several times, alot of the assets are still the same but with better textures.
If Nintendo did improve the stuff why not show a comparison like they did with OOT 3D?
Models are the same. Right down to the sword and shield. And I don't think I'm going crazy. I've beat the game several times, alot of the assets are still the same but with better textures.
If Nintendo did improve the stuff why not show a comparison like they did with OOT 3D?
lostinblue
Banned
True that.
My point was that, some times it's best to take a step back and consider other options rather than jumping at the most obvious one/ones.
I agree SSAO is the most likely one (and you're right on the day/night cycle preposition, that I ignored altogether before, it didn't spring to my mind), but I still stand by what I said.
It's being the devil's advocate in a way as I know that I might be wrong, perhaps likely so, but I also feel people jump to conclusions to fast these days, hardware is fully programmable these days so it's not a sum of switches and pre-established shortcuts (fixed function) so conclusions are not always universal and there can be various means to an end.
Not so in the case of SSAO or similar effect? that I don't know, can only hypothesize. You're right though.
My point was that, some times it's best to take a step back and consider other options rather than jumping at the most obvious one/ones.
I agree SSAO is the most likely one (and you're right on the day/night cycle preposition, that I ignored altogether before, it didn't spring to my mind), but I still stand by what I said.
It's being the devil's advocate in a way as I know that I might be wrong, perhaps likely so, but I also feel people jump to conclusions to fast these days, hardware is fully programmable these days so it's not a sum of switches and pre-established shortcuts (fixed function) so conclusions are not always universal and there can be various means to an end.
Not so in the case of SSAO or similar effect? that I don't know, can only hypothesize. You're right though.
lostinblue
Banned
If they implemented SSAO then it's a pity they didn't pull tesselation on those assets.Doesn't make sense to judge from such small screenshots (were edges become smaller than a pixel).
Models are the same. Right down to the sword and shield. And I don't think I'm going crazy, I've beat the game several times, alot of the assets are still the same but with better textures.
If Nintendo did improve the stuff why not show a comparison like they did with OOT 3D?
Ooops double post.
After krizzx linked that one shot, I'd be surprised if it was anything else.
Those dark character halos aren't "subsurface scattering"
Smurfman256
Member
Does anyone think that Wind Waker is using some form of SSAO because it sure as hell seems like it to me judging from the most recent trailer: WWHD Story Trailer
And also by comparing these three pics (third one is for correct aspect ratio):
Can someone care to break down what they have improved upon?
Yeah, I brought this up a few pages ago. I used this image as evidence.
See the black outline around Link and Tetra's legs? That's usually a tell-tale sign of SSAO being used.
lostinblue
Banned
Indeed they certainly aren't, and it means it's doing a extra pass in order to create a map, which destroys my point which was that since HDR takes one pass they could be avoiding doing another backbuffer fullframe pass and do it in some roundabout way instead.After krizzx linked that one shot, I'd be surprised if it was anything else.
Those dark character halos aren't "subsurface scattering"
Doesn't make sense to judge from such small screenshots (were edges become smaller than a pixel).
Models are the same. Right down to the sword and shield. And I don't think I'm going crazy. I've beat the game several times, alot of the assets are still the same but with better textures.
If Nintendo did improve the stuff why not show a comparison like they did with OOT 3D?
Because this isn't a discussion about the 3DS nor is it about miscellaneous comparisons just for the sake of comparing.
This is about the Wii U GPU and what it can do. How does looking at Ocarina of Time help us understand Latte?
As for the statement that they are still the same, how do you know this? Are you on the development team, because I'm ssee some significant differences(hence why I brought it up). Link's round parts seem to be a little more round which generally points to more polygons being drawn in. Then again, it could also be a texture effect.
That certainly looks like occlusion to me.Maybe I haven't paid close attention to the past trailers but for some reason SSAO also came to mind when watching that Story trailer.
Really like how this shot looks.
King of Red Lions almost feels it's made out of clay.
Getting SSAO vibes for some reason - maybe it's the self-shadowing? (or some other technique as you mention)
It looks good, and subtle.
JordanN
Banned
Ok, I can tell you're all about drawing people into arguments since the purpose of the screenshot wasn't about 3DS but why Nintendo didn't do the same with WW.
Edit: I'm going off the fact everything in the game appears to have the same models and there's nothing that instantly pops out about Link's model over the rest. I'm 99.9% sure of this the same way I'm sure Link is wearing green.krizzx said:
Edit2: The model may not even have more polygons at all. The artist could have simply optimized it, removing extra triangles/quads that looked unnecessary and spending them elsewhere. I know this is what NG3 did.
It might be useful to point out where in particular you're looking.
There aren't very many parts of the model's silhouette that line up exactly between the shots, so polygon counting is difficult. However, I'm seeing roughly the same number of polygon steps along the jawlines, belt buckles, and other similar spots. Also, non-rounded parts of the model such as the ears are clearly the same (not that that means much).
Apophis2036
Banned
Jesus man calm down...
The guy was just pointing out if Nintendo did improve the character models, then why haven't they mentioned it in Directs ect. His point with OoT 3DS is a very good one.
How is it any more off topic than you posting PS All Stars and LBP Karting screen shots ?.
For someone that moans about being attacked all the time you don't half jump down peoples throats when they post something that doesn't fall into your view of the GPU.
Anyway...
Iwilliams3 mentioned that Link's character model is 83 000 polygons, how many polygons are in the average main character model nowadays ?.
I also wonder if it's technically possible to have this game run at 60fps considering the extra effects it seems to be running. I know it was a design choice to be 30fps but it would be interesting to know if the console could handle it when it struggled to run MH3 Ultimate at anything above 50fps.
lostinblue
Banned
He said 2800 polygons.
Corroborated here.
Anyway, this generation, usually 10.000 to 20.000 polygons, sometimes higher. That's definitely the standard this gen; but a lot of things changed and that's why the difference is so big this time around, normal maps and displace maps versus polygonal detail, basically. And the balance between them, as both eat resources away, of course.
Last gen the norm was 5000-7500 Polygons; Wind Waker was definitely on the polycount lower end (and nothing wrong with that, it animated perfectly). Some games also went higher of course.
As is? certainly not, otherwise Nintendo would just go for it.
Since we're doing comparisons:
The difference between Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate and Wind Waker HD is that the former has been developed by a third party with most of the development being done on unfinished dev kits and dodgy tools and Wind Waker is being done by a first party developer with more development being done on final dev kits and decent tools.
Blimey, it's not rocket science mate lol
Apophis2036
Banned
Thanks for the info Lostinblue, have no idea where I got the 83 000 number from lol. That Beyond3D link is very interesting !.
Wasn't there a video where it showed Bayonetta's character model in Bayo 2 being a very high number like 60 000 polygons ?.
Wasn't there a video where it showed Bayonetta's character model in Bayo 2 being a very high number like 60 000 polygons ?.
Apophis2036
Banned
I don't buy the unfinished dev kit / tools excuse for MH3U tbh, it wasn't a launch game. Maybe the truth of the matter is that the GPU simply cannot handle Wii games at 1080p / 60fps ?. It's not outside the realms of possibility.
Apophis2036
Banned
I never said it pushed the console to it's limits, I just think parroting the usual 'unfinished tool's' line can only go on for so long. Same with 'lol third parties put no effort in' line when the ports fail to live up to even the PS360 versions.
There is no shame in not being able to run Wii games at 1080p/60fps.
Considering SSBU and MK8 are running 1080p/60FPS it would be crazy to think that it couldn't run SSBB and MKwii the same.
Starfish Hero
Member
It kinda is. Why can't the GPU handle a 3DS (not Wii) game at 1080p/60 fps when we know it can do native Wii U games at those settings? The only reason to think it couldn't is because it didn't, which is pretty poor reasoning.
Jury is still out on MK (only 720p so far as far as I know), but Smash should be enough for him. It's doing a lot more than Brawl while also being 1080p/60fps.
MH3U was a first gen game. We already have confirmation that dev kit tools were unfinished even after launch, well after the game was done. I really don't know what you expect.
Starfish Hero
Member
double post
Starfish Hero
Member
Shit this thread is going a lot slower than I thought. I'm just going to take a break from posting.
lostinblue
Banned
Not just that.
Nintendo is retooling a Gamecube game, something that was heavily optimized for their platform, and not just optimized, the engine was conceived from the ground and never ported; the Wii kept the development environment, same is true to a certain extent with the Wii U and that's deliberate.
Wind Waker could run as is; infact it does with Devolution in Wii Mode because code compatibility is kept by this CPU; so for Nintendo it's like you unlocked more power (and in this case they had to redo the whole graphics pipeline and god knows upgrade what as the original engine certainly wasn't multi-cpu enabled and it did vertex manipulation/skinning on the CPU, such is not needed anymore); but it's a very different beast than Monster Hunter 3, whose heritage is, at this point very mixed. MH3 even changed engines, from their original PS2/PSP assets and basis Wii up-port then downport for MH3 portable and up-port again for MT Framework Mobile on 3DS and a few months later Wii U.
It's a rollercoaster, and a third party one. Being locked at 60 frames per second is probably possible for such game, I mean, Ridge Racer 7 did it in 2006 on curent gen; and it certainly doesn't look like a PS2 game, it was simply done from the ground with a goal. A port like MH3 was didn't have many chances of being that optimized.
This said, the Wii U was clearly designed to be a 720p machine, so at 1080p there are compromises to be done, or bottlenecks to be dealt with.
There was.
Bayonetta - Bayonetta 53,910 polygons (with all 4 guns) [8,068 polygons per pistol]
Bayonetta 2 - Bayonetta over 100,000 polygons (with all 4 guns)
Jack Cayman
Banned
Look I read every post that you make here on this thread, some things you say have some valid points on theoretical level but to make assumptions as for the GPU of the Wii U cannot run Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate is a joke.
To put it simply the developing time for this port was like five months as the previous poster said with unfinished tools plus they did not port the Wii version of the game. They port the 3DS version engine which was reworked for the hand-held version that's why it is not optimised because of the small developing time they had. See what happened with resident evil revelation port as well which has many graphical limitations from the 3DS port.
The engine that resident evil was running was MT Frameworks mobile which is scalable according to capcom but it is dated to run on new hardware that's why they are making Panta Rhei for their "next gen" projects.
If you want to see some new shaders(tessellation,HDR,ray tracing) that take advantage of the Wii U GPU are some indie games like Trine 2 and Nano Assault. There is not game yet that take advantage the full power of the machine.
Even precursor that is working on the cryengine said that the Wii U supports all the appropriate shaders of their "next gen" engine.
http://www.precursorgames.com/forums/index.php?threads/about-tessellation-and-wii-u.647/
Also Shin'en is working on 2 games on the Wii U with their second gen engine of the machine which they confirm that Wii U is capable of adaptive tessellation.
http://hdwarriors.com/shinen-on-the-practical-use-of-adaptive-tessellation-upcoming-games/
I would also like to inform some guys here that the Wii U is running Open CL or GL shader language DX11 is microsoft exclusive, so it is up to Nintendo to provide tools with this kind of support which is a problem by the fact they were not ready for HD development so the tools as well are not optimised fully. They are still trying to figure out their own console and that is the most tragic part in this time and age.
The only big budget game that is going to be a graphical showcase for this console I believe it would be the next Legend of Zelda as Nintendo considers it a game that needs that graphical fidelity to showcase a fantasy open world.
prag16
Banned
w1gglyjones
Member
It was a launch title. It was ready on launch and released day one in Japan.
Smurfman256
Member
WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!! Hold on a tick; ray-tracing?!? A) which one of these games uses it and B) was it confirmed by the developer?
Apophis2036
Banned
I didn't realize MH3U was a Japanese launch game, my bad.
Jack Cayman
Banned
According to the tech demo yes it is not by my knowledge if any game have included this yet on the console.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4SGjPLV5mw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_fyOkrteqM
Nostremitus
Member
He said 2800 polygons.
Corroborated here.
Anyway, this generation, usually 10.000 to 20.000 polygons, sometimes higher. That's definitely the standard this gen; but a lot of things changed and that's why the difference is so big this time around, normal maps and displace maps versus polygonal detail, basically. And the balance between them, as both eat resources away, of course.
Last gen the norm was 5000-7500 Polygons; Wind Waker was definitely on the polycount lower end (and nothing wrong with that, it animated perfectly). Some games also went higher of course.As is? certainly not, otherwise Nintendo would just go for it.
Since we're doing comparisons:
Link's jaw-line doesn't look as pointy, but that could be due to jaggies on the GC version...
lwilliams3
Member
Ok, just to update what you said eariler:
- added 16:9, renders 1080p
-Replaced original lighting system with a more advanced realtime lighting and self-shadowing
-Removed frame blur filter
- Loads up entire ocean at once to now enable speedier sea travel
- Subtle SSAO
- Redone sky and clouds
-Redone texture?
Has the texture work also been upgraded with the resolution bump? Red Lion looks a bit smoother than the original.
Wow, what a difference a few added effects can make. I can see why the Zelda team was impressed during its experimentation with Wind Waker.Maybe I haven't paid close attention to the past trailers but for some reason SSAO also came to mind when watching that Story trailer.
Really like how this shot looks.
King of Red Lions almost feels it's made out of clay.
Getting SSAO vibes for some reason - maybe it's the self-shadowing? (or some other technique as you mention)
Smurfman256
Member
They removed it? Damn. I actually kinda LIKED that. It made the game look smoother than it actually was.
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