Red Liquorice
Member
Okay, sorry got you wrong - thought you were talking invaders killing NPCs.
Polygon: How Dark Souls II will make life even harder
- Thread starter Orayn
- Start date
And the game won't even start if it can't detect an internet connection ofc.Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Source? Those are good news indeed.
I don't have a problem with hollow invasions if the PvP can be at least more balanced than it is now. Souls PvP has never been fully balanced, but in Demon's Souls there were many elements that made an overpowered invader still beatable with starting gear (the biggest factor being the lack of upgradable armour). In Dark Souls, pyromancy + elemental weapons + maxed out armour are all possible at very low levels (including SL 1), meaning someone who is exploring the Burg or Parish for the first time with +0 gear has zero chance, even if experienced in PvP. When your backstabs do 50 damage each, but the invader can OHKO you, it's just irredeemably broken.
In Demon's Souls you had dragon weapons and Makoto which were non-scaling, but even those usually did not OHKO a host, and invaders were phantoms so they had less HP (and/or had to sacrifice a ring slot for the Cling ring), and their defense was the same or less than the host, so someone with starting gear still had a chance with a dragon mirdan hammer+5 douche (I have fond memories of killing such assholes in 2-1 and 4-1). Moreover, while a lot of stuff was kinda broken in (higher level) Demon's Souls PvP, for the most part, every OP thing had a counter. Curse weapon with a cracked Talisman of Beasts? Whatever, I'll turtle with my faith build and stack regen until your buff expires. Mirdan hammers? Whatever, I can parry or roll-backstab you. Backstabs/lagstabs? Easily punishable (unlike poise-BS and chain-BS in Dark). Dual katana pushlock? Toggle escape and/or shields. Claymores and their ridiculous range? Easiest weapon to roll-BS. Turtles? Roll-BS, cross-up/dead angle, backstabs. Etc. Basically it was so broken that it was almost balanced as a result. xD
Hopefully, in Dark Souls 2 the PvP will be more like Demon's and less like Dark (though I'm not keeping my hopes up), and gear will be a factor in matchmaking in addition to the level. I think minimum requirements on powerful weapon and/or armour upgrades are a good idea. And if summoning is easier + blue bros group, it can certainly help. I recall starting a new toon once and was moving around in the Parish with +0 gear and got invaded by a guy with a lightning rapier etc. I chipped at him slowly by chain-BSing him a few times but I missed one chain and then he ran into the enemies and I heard him pop a humanity to heal (no doubt he'd have 90 more of those). Instead of pursuing him dumbly into the level, I stuck around the staircase near the black knight and summoned a few white signs to help me with him. They all failed, so I was stuck alone against a guy that'd require over 10 backstabs to kill that'd OHKO me. It didn't bother me much 'cause I already knew the game but for a new player discovering the Parish it'd be frustrating and shitty.
Agreed, I hope to see that too.
Yeah, that would suck. I hope rings of sacrifice are still in. >_> I know it's wiser to spend those souls, but sometimes I want to "save" them for buying stuff that I haven't reached yet that I know are expensive (e.g. the large shards sold by the merchant in Sen's). Same with soft humanity, I'd spend them on kindling but if you have some extra for future kindling (+ defense boost) it's worrying to have a stack of it in your bloodstain. Rings of sacrifice mitigated that a lot. But knowing From they're gonna be "nope". xD
Most of the info about stats came from here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CGvXh_pEWs
Dark Souls 2 map on his twitter:
I'm going for 'In From we trust' here. Taken individually, some of these points may sound unfair or harsh, but I doubt this will translate into the game. Like others have said, I'm sure there'll be a ring that prevents you from getting invaded or losing 50% of your health. These games have always been tough but fair, don't have any reason to assume DaS II will be broken. This is a bullet point list on paper, kinda hard to judge how it'll work ingame.
I'm glad they decided to get rid of the hollow/human system and mix things up. Seems like they're adding or changing a lot of stuff, which will make this a fresh experience.
The -seemingly- major overhaul on classes and stats is exciting. Can't wait to see what the sorcerer plays like now for instance.
What I feared most for DaS II was a safe sequel that didn't stray far from Dark, but it looks like we won't be getting a retread.
I'm glad they decided to get rid of the hollow/human system and mix things up. Seems like they're adding or changing a lot of stuff, which will make this a fresh experience.
The -seemingly- major overhaul on classes and stats is exciting. Can't wait to see what the sorcerer plays like now for instance.
What I feared most for DaS II was a safe sequel that didn't stray far from Dark, but it looks like we won't be getting a retread.
vxXJordanXxv
Banned
Thank you god for not going for the broader shit casual audience. Definetely getting this game.
I think this is the best way to handle the situation.
nailbombxx
Member
So the time limits on the white phantoms are to stop gankers, correct?
{Fake news post}
Director Tomohiro Shibuya announces that they implemented a ghost system similar to the forza avatar system that automatically updates the local client with behavioral patterns of your peers to enhance your experience even while offline. This will allow virtual invasions to occur to even those who pull the plug. These virtual phantoms will clone player habits and setups to provide a more challenging experience for everyone.
In the future it is planned that preset enemy placement will be a thing of the past and the invasion system will simply place content on demand or as needed throughout the games in the future using either virutal player phantom clones or actual players in order to provide a dynamic and intense experience throughout the game.
No, it's to limit the amount of help the host player gets, and the time limit gets shorter if the host player isn't doing enough (killing blows). That's what we're hearing anyway.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
I really hope they tweak these ideas. Otherwise I'll be looking forward to getting invaded by someone who's already beat the game five times 10 minutes into my first play-through.
Sanctuary
Member
Unless they added this "feature" to the Souls series, you can still play offline. In game phantoms are nothing like player phantoms.
You'd have to be pretty hardcore to beat the game five times and still be in the same Soul Level range as you during the first ten minutes of your first playthrough.
I'm assuming there will be a level range to separate high level players like the previous ones. Obviously that doesn't stop low level invaders who manage to beat the game without leveling up but that's not very common.
The reason there was a lot of low level invaders in Dark Souls was because they did a glitch with the bottomless box, which I think has been patched for some time now.
Just exit to title screen. You always start exactly where you quit anyway.
Dark Souls 2 map his twitter:
Bigger version...I need it. Hope there are some really cool areas in this game.
I trust From to make a great game, I'm not so sure I trust them to create a fair, well-policed, and balanced online environment just yet. They're a very small developer working with a relatively low-key publisher. It'd take a lot to get it just right, and it's a pretty big ask to have faith in spite of my uniformly bad experiences with DS1 pvp
what worries me is that the best way to play this game should be spoiler-free.
people who want to win at pvp and invade are best served by spoiling the heck out of themselves. it makes for very disparate skill-levels - particularly early in the game.
making it not just straight-out frustrating being invaded is going to be hard to balance right.
people who want to win at pvp and invade are best served by spoiling the heck out of themselves. it makes for very disparate skill-levels - particularly early in the game.
making it not just straight-out frustrating being invaded is going to be hard to balance right.
Those guys sure are dickheads to beat (or speedrun) the game five times only to grief latecome of to the game.
Timekiller
Member
My problem with getting invaded as a phantom is that A - i dont want an angry nerd with a character pumped up following guides on gamefaqs in my game all the time and B - it breaks the risk-reward balance. Minus 50% health or full+ phantoms around (invasion and bodyguards?)... That was the nice balance in Demon's.
Dirk Benedict
Gold Member
This. And I'm surprised I'm not seeing people bring this up that much.
I dislike being invaded, but that's primarily because my experience with Invaders has been near constant lagstabbing and other such shenanigans. If they fix that, great.
But those saying that being Invaded whilst Hollow is to make things difficult seem to be neglecting the fact that having the 50% HP drop when Hollowed (like Demon's) is already in there for that reason.
No Help and Less health is PLENTY of downside for playing as a Hollow.
It makes things twice as hard for them, but sure: You can stay Invader free. (And I wouldn't even want a Cling Ring for that)
Just as it stands, with the information we have, isn't "Invaders Everywhere" just unnecessarily nerfing a "problem" it into the ground?
I did as well it forced you to learn how to work with someone you have no ties to,There by making visual cues and such more needed not talk a plan and do it
Maybe they'll somehow scale invaders' stats or damage output to invadees level.
So if you invade a level 2 person who has shitty gear, your damage is scaled to be around their level of damage.
I realize there are things that would have to be taken into consideration here, and I've hardly put much thought into the "how" of this, but wouldn't that be nice?
You wouldn't have to worry about overleveled/overgeared jerks coming in and messing you up. It would be all about who's the better fighter.
Like I said, I trust From. The idea of always being vulnerable to invasions doesn't appeal to me, but we don't know the whole story yet. Looking forward to finding out more.
So if you invade a level 2 person who has shitty gear, your damage is scaled to be around their level of damage.
I realize there are things that would have to be taken into consideration here, and I've hardly put much thought into the "how" of this, but wouldn't that be nice?
You wouldn't have to worry about overleveled/overgeared jerks coming in and messing you up. It would be all about who's the better fighter.
Like I said, I trust From. The idea of always being vulnerable to invasions doesn't appeal to me, but we don't know the whole story yet. Looking forward to finding out more.
To be fair it's an UP TO 50% hp drop. 50% is the bottom limit, but it seems it'll be something to the effect of 10% maxhp loss per death
I'm for most of these ideas on paper, but like many of the posters here I have reservations about how well they'll be executed. I'm all for constant random invasions in theory, but whether it actually be any fun to play will depend on scores of other things being implemented correctly, like reliable anti-cheat systems or decent netcode.
Yeah, I know. That's why I think that not having a Cling Ring would be good mixed with that. =)
If anyone really hates getting invaded , play offline. Could there be an easier solution than that? the only thing you'd be missing out on would be msgs, even then half are trolling half are legit.
I highly doubt we'll see any low level greifers with max everything during the first few weeks of the game anyhow. And if they did complete the game at low level that early, well.. props to them i say. If they hacked, the move to servers should be able to track and deal with em.
They don't make it easy to invade people lower than 5-10 lvls than you, except in certain covenant related invasions in Dark Souls 1.
I highly doubt we'll see any low level greifers with max everything during the first few weeks of the game anyhow. And if they did complete the game at low level that early, well.. props to them i say. If they hacked, the move to servers should be able to track and deal with em.
They don't make it easy to invade people lower than 5-10 lvls than you, except in certain covenant related invasions in Dark Souls 1.
decoyplatypus
Member
I don't love the idea of hollow invasions. I liked methodically exploring areas and choosing when to risk invasion. But I can roll with it as long as From balances the game properly.
Time limits on co-op are an unambiguously bad idea in my opinion. Unskilled players riding white phantoms' coattails to victory are a problem, but yanking allies out of a co-op session is NOT the way to deal with it. It's just no fun to be dropped from a session or to lose an ally. By all means, force hosts to do more, but do it in a way that doesn't reduce fun for the phantoms.
Time limits on co-op are an unambiguously bad idea in my opinion. Unskilled players riding white phantoms' coattails to victory are a problem, but yanking allies out of a co-op session is NOT the way to deal with it. It's just no fun to be dropped from a session or to lose an ally. By all means, force hosts to do more, but do it in a way that doesn't reduce fun for the phantoms.
BebopMcJigglypuff
Member
... sounds good to me.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Man, you can kiss my fat ass with that.
Screw this! As if retaining Dark Souls difficulty wasn't already enough for a game that kills you a thousand times.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
It's never been balanced. That's the core issue.
Is it really so hard to believe that there are people who don't buy this series for the PVP? I mean, invasions are funny and a fascinating feature but that shit is soooo far down on my list of why I like Souls games. Messages and bloodstains are substantially above it in terms of what I consider essential features, so I don't want to have to play offline.
But as I and others have said, we need to wait and see what kind of options we have in the final release.
But as I and others have said, we need to wait and see what kind of options we have in the final release.
The Tofunator
Member
Dark Souls PvP? Balanced? It'll be a miracle of game design if that ever happens.
i thought i read somewhere you couldn't go hollow in this one. kind of makes me wonder why they don't go in that direction since you can get invaded either way.
the repeated deaths bringing you down 50% in HP sounds too brutal for me, but i trust things will be balanced out in the end
the repeated deaths bringing you down 50% in HP sounds too brutal for me, but i trust things will be balanced out in the end
Maybe it's some kind of gradual "hollowing" effect instead of a binary hollow/human state, i.e. you look like a Dark Souls hollow with the max HP penalty, but there are stages in between where you just look sickly instead of immediately having beef jerky skin.
Hollowing was supposedly planned to work more like that in Dark Souls, and it would have had story consequences tied to it as well.
Everything mentioned so far sounds fantastic and Tanimura seems to have considered these gameplay systems and the balance very carefully. I really like the notion of strategy that comes from being a helper phantom now, with a time limit based on kills.
It really was a bit of an issue that some white phantoms you summon would just rush through the area and slaughter everything, which really went against the games central philosophy of struggle and perseverence in the face of adversity. Now as a helper you have to consider your actions more carefully and play as a real supporting character.
As long as the servers are solid, I have no doubt the co-op and pvp aspects will be much more balanced and free of the issues that troubled the previous games. It's really great that they are doing the beta test in order to get it right before launch.
Very excited!
It really was a bit of an issue that some white phantoms you summon would just rush through the area and slaughter everything, which really went against the games central philosophy of struggle and perseverence in the face of adversity. Now as a helper you have to consider your actions more carefully and play as a real supporting character.
As long as the servers are solid, I have no doubt the co-op and pvp aspects will be much more balanced and free of the issues that troubled the previous games. It's really great that they are doing the beta test in order to get it right before launch.
Very excited!
The last guy who invaded me killed me in 2 hits.
we were fooling around and he dropped a couple of souls that raised my level like sixteen times before we fought, though. first time I got invaded, I had no idea what the hell I was doing, and the second time the guy just kept backstabbing me
Yeah, pvp needs some improvment
we were fooling around and he dropped a couple of souls that raised my level like sixteen times before we fought, though. first time I got invaded, I had no idea what the hell I was doing, and the second time the guy just kept backstabbing me
Yeah, pvp needs some improvment
I think one key to PvP balance will be taking an approach to equipment/spell/item balance that's a bit more like Guild Wars 1 or Diablo 2; you should be encouraged to build around a particular idea instead of just picking a general strategy and loading up on no-brainer effects that are always good to have. Rings can still grant powerful bonuses, but they should come with drawbacks that force the player to think more about their weaknesses and how to compensate for them.
Then again, just reducing lab, fixing backstabs, removing most non-scaling stuff will go a very long way.
Then again, just reducing lab, fixing backstabs, removing most non-scaling stuff will go a very long way.
TheCongressman1
Member
I think it would be cool if invaders could be attacked by enemies when invading a hollow. Perhaps you could have a covenant prevent that or something.
