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[Kataploom]

Buddy, they're making the game easier for themselves, not for anyone else... Are they affecting your experience because they downloaded a mod in own their computers?

 

[BigLee74]

 

[MrJangles]

Streamlining of games isn't anything new and it's been happening year over year since the beginning. Many of these changes are a result of devs learning from previous game design "mistakes", some are a result of hardware evolving and previous limitations being gone (saves). Most of them have been for the better, but it feels like we've long reached a point where convenience and "quality of life" is prioritized over meaningful game design choices.

This thread is obviously brought on by Silksong, but it isn't even about "hard" games. The bar feels like it's been lowered across the industry, even things that were already easy are getting easier. The platforming genre has always been one of my favourites and I absolutely adore modern takes like Odyssey, Bananza and Astrobot but my love for them is diminished by them being effectively devoid of challenges. "But these are games for kids" - so were Super Mario 64, Donkey Kong Country, Crash Bandicoot, etc. And that's not to say that any of those games were hard, but they all had some level of challenge to them that no longer seems to exist. In fact, games in the 80s and 90s pretty much exclusively targetted kids and while there were some that were easier than others, it wasn't some expected standard.

And it's not even strictly about difficulty, there's a bunch of people that are too impatient to deal with any perceived inconvenience or friction in a game. "Why can't I save anywhere", "How come there's no map", "Why do my weapons break", etc. This isn't to say that you can't dislike these things, but deliberate design choices are being categorized by some as "bad design" or "not respecting my time" because it isn't convenient to them. The recent "corpse run" discussion is a good example - "why do I have to spend 45 seconds running back to the boss after I die", I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a boss rush game? Do you not think the devs considered the full section when they placed the bench? They want the player to survive both that section and the boss to progress.

We've had entire genres become a shell of their former self because of streamlining and introduction of "Quality of Life" features. World of Warcraft slowly introduced so many of these features that it's barely recognizable as an MMO in many ways. It started with small things like "We'll introduce summon stones at the front of an instance", "Introduce Dual-Spec", "Reduce the cooldown on hearthstones", etc. Nowadays it's snowballed to the point where there's practically zero friction in the game whatsoever and the WORLD (you know, the main character of the game itself) is practically uninhabited because you can do everything from the comfort of a capital city.

I believe that friction has a place in the medium. The games that I look back fondly on are games that had friction that resulted in creating those memeories for me. Many games have reached a point of being such a passive experience of going through the motions that they're simply not memorable at all, pretty much every AAA game nowadays can be played on autopilot, following a map marker or arrow to your next destination and mashing some buttons when you get there.

Anyway, that's my rant. Make games hard again, they'll be better off.

 

[TrebleShot]

Easy mode plz

 

[rm082e]

I have been a Souls fan since 2009. I like the harder difficulty. Even on non-souls games I generally go for the third difficulty option out of four in most games. I enjoy the consequence and grind. But I've always felt there would be no harm in adding five levels of difficulty:

• Easy - Your damage is the same, but enemies do 1/4 damage to your character.
• Medium - Your damage is the same, but enemies do 1/2 damage to your character.
• Normal - The standard "gitgud" difficulty.
• Hard - You die in one hit, but you can revive at the rest/save points.
• Hardcore - You die in one hit and no revives - the second the damage is registered, your save gets invalidated and you go back to the title screen.

Put in achievements/trophies for Normal, Hard and Hardcore, that way there's no reward for playing on the easier difficulties aside from the enjoyment of playing the game.

I have friends who I know would play these type of games on Easy and I could have conversations with them about our experiences. As is, they just don't play these games because they don't have the time to grind and git gud.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Buddy, they're making the game easier for themselves, not for anyone else... Are they affecting your experience because they downloaded a mod in own their computers?

It's similar to gamers who hate multiplats, but love walled garden games on their plastic box. They get pissed gamers on other platforms around the world play it too.

Difficulty levels can be another hot topic. Some gamers want Souls games hard (insert any game known to be hard) because they want a sense of accomplishment and bragging rights they beat the game. If another gamer enjoys the game the way they like to play, they lose confidence and bragging rights because a guy playing on Easy or Normal beat the game too.

At that point, they got no bragging rights left except perhaps the game has bonus achievements or trophies for beating the game on Hard or Expert. And no gamer online is going to go that far bragging he got a badge for beating the game on hard where only 1.5% of gamers did it because you'll look a retard showing off about that.

 

[Punished Miku]

It's similar to gamers who hate multiplats, but love walled garden games on their plastic box. They get pissed gamers on other platforms around the world play it too.

Difficulty levels can be another hot topic. Some gamers want Souls games hard (insert any game known to be hard) because they want a sense of accomplishment and bragging rights they beat the game. If another gamer enjoys the game the way they like to play, they lose confidence and bragging rights because a guy playing on Easy or Normal beat the game too.

At that point, they got no bragging rights left except perhaps the game has bonus achievements or trophies for beating the game on Hard or Expert.

What's extra funny is that these people don't seem to realize that every game on PC has a high chance of some kind of lower difficulty mod already, including Silksong. It didn't make the game worse, didn't make the discourse worse, didn't do anything. There are people that actually believe it will affect them. They don't even seem to realize it already is here and didn't affect them.

 

[ReBurn]

The whole point of a game is to overcome a challenge for the reward. All these people complaining about difficulty - it's like they don't even want it to be a game, just an "experience". Why not just watch a movie or read a book or something?

Who died and made you emperor of what the point of games is? Not everyone wants their gaming to be like a second job. Some people do want to enjoy the experience. God knows most of them have so much cinema these days that you already spend half your time watching them regardless of how you play.

 

[SilentSpecter]

Gamers are getting older. Older people have less gaming time but spend the most money. It's not hard to have difficulty options.
Gotta meet your customers where they are. BF6 is just realizing that with their spec requirements after seen a ton of PC gamers playing the game at minimum settings.

Sure, I get it - gamers are getting older, we've got less free time… but there are literally tons of games out there, including plenty you can beat with one hand while sipping coffee. You don't have to play everything.
If a game is too hard for me, I either adapt or I just move on to something else - I don't go writing essays on forums about how it "needs an easy mode."

And honestly, with roguelikes and soulslikes, difficulty isn't just "more HP on enemies" or "less damage taken." It's the whole design philosophy - risk/reward, progression balance, that feeling of finally overcoming a challenge. Slapping an easy mode on top would completely break what the game is supposed to be.

 

[mitch1971]

What's telling players to make the games harder gonna do? Wrong crowd.

 

[Larxia]

It's not hard to have difficulty options.

The problem is that this really affect the creative process, and I think a lot of people really underestimate this.
I'm not asking for games to be particularly hardcore, but I really prefer when games don't have any difficulty option, just one single difficulty. It's always the best thing. The director can create a really specific vision, experience, and everyone will live the same intended experience.
Difficulty options most of the time really feel artificial, and you stand there on the difficulty selection screen, not sure which one will offer you the best experience.

 

[MSduderino]

"Why can't games be like they were when they didn't sell as much?"

Obviously, there are hard games for players that want a challenge, but the mainstream, best selling games are going to be that way because they are accessible to the masses, not the relatively niche gaming audience that existed in the 80s/90s.

 

[Futaleufu]

I agree. You are not entitled to watch the ending just because you bought the game. You didnt buy a movie.

 

[GymWolf]

If you really want a good challenge, try keeping your dick in your gf/wife's mouth while calling her by her best friend's name.

Lmao, dude read the room, in 2025 people who chopped off their dicks are on top of the discrimination pyramid and get all the privileges and attentions.

Get some trt treatment to enhance your toxic masculinity if you really wanna up the challenge

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Lmao, dude read the room, in 2025 people who chopped off their dicks are on top of the discrimination pyramid and get all the privileges and attentions.

Get some trt treatment to enhance your toxic masculinity if you really wanna up the challenge

Then try sticking your dick in a dude and call him "Sir".

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

I'm in the middle ground here mostly as I always start with Normal and then move up to hard but I avoid very hard and easy difficulties in most games. I don't agree that all games should be hard as games are meant to be enjoyable. Difficulty modes should always exist. Most people would prefer things not too hard and not too easy but for the few that really loves super hard games than they could pick the hardest mode and easy for those that wants a super relaxed time.

 

[kpopSuperstar]

You are off with the bench run example, just because it's supposed to be that way doesn't mean it's good. It's boring to run over the same places over and over, that's the problem, it's something a few soulsgames tried that backfired, and soulsgames has largely stopped doing it now because no one likes it.

It's like if you were forced to spin the wheels for 30 seconds before every race in Mario Kart.

 

[rodrigolfp]

"why do I have to spend 45 seconds running back to the boss after I die", I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a boss rush game? Do you not think the devs considered the full section when they placed the bench? They want the player to survive both that section and the boss to progress.

Yeah, why?? It is not a boss rush game but it is a "waste time running back to the boss" game. Should I be happy about this because???

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Shut up, NEET.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'm in the middle ground here mostly as I always start with Normal and then move up to hard but I avoid very hard and easy difficulties in most games. I don't agree that all games should be hard as games are meant to be enjoyable. Difficulty modes should always exist. Most people would prefer things not too hard and not too easy but for the few that really loves super hard games than they could pick the hardest mode and easy for those that wants a super relaxed time.

That makes perfect sense.

It's really no different than letting gamers adjust controller layout. They could either lock controls under one layout, have 5 different layouts, or best of all let gamers custom bind every function to whichever button they want. Giving people options seems reasonable to me instead of hard locking them to one layout.

As for difficulty, it makes sense to give options too since not every gamer has the same skill set.

Problem is you got guys who get pissed if other gamers play on easier skill levels because they got a sense of high browing a topic like video game difficulty levels, where people who play on Easy or Normal arent real gamers. Because they play on easier skill levels, they dont deserve to get far in the game or beat it. They are only worthy to beat the game if they beat it at their difficulty choice of Hard.

 

[Hollowpoint5557]

I have a life and can't spend hours failing and trying things again. I also am not spending $70 just to get frustrated and not get out of a games first area. These things will happen to you too once you discover vaginas.

 

[Dacvak]

Couple things.

First off, QoL improvements do not (or at least should not) affect a game's core difficulty. A game like Cuphead has great modern QoL implementations, but still is tough as all fuck-off.

Secondly, and this is a personal opinion, a game's enjoyment should not be based off of difficulty, but instead on how well it's designed. Donkey Kong Bananza and Mario 64 are objectively easy games, yet they're absolutely phenomenal, and peak representations of how fun a game can be. Similarly, Silksong is also an incredibly well-designed game that stabs you right up the bunger with its difficulty spikes, and is still insanely fun.

Mario Kart will never be a hard game, but it's always a fun game. Dark Souls will twist your sensitive nips right off, but it's still insanely fun.

Difficulty is not what makes a game good or fun (at least to me). Good game design is.

 

[simpatico]

Hollow Knight is a grand example. Aside from the crazy boss rush, the base game really isn't harder than the average SNES title.

Gamers have become bitchmade in a lot of ways.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

The problem is that this really affect the creative process, and I think a lot of people really underestimate this.
I'm not asking for games to be particularly hardcore, but I really prefer when games don't have any difficulty option, just one single difficulty. It's always the best thing. The director can create a really specific vision, experience, and everyone will live the same intended experience.
Difficulty options most of the time really feel artificial, and you stand there on the difficulty selection screen, not sure which one will offer you the best experience.

I don't buy this argument cause you can make it literally two sliders like they do in Hell Is Us. How hard or soft enemies hit. How much or little health is taken.
If that blows up your creative process, you need to get over yourself.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Sure, I get it - gamers are getting older, we've got less free time… but there are literally tons of games out there, including plenty you can beat with one hand while sipping coffee. You don't have to play everything.
If a game is too hard for me, I either adapt or I just move on to something else - I don't go writing essays on forums about how it "needs an easy mode."

And honestly, with roguelikes and soulslikes, difficulty isn't just "more HP on enemies" or "less damage taken." It's the whole design philosophy - risk/reward, progression balance, that feeling of finally overcoming a challenge. Slapping an easy mode on top would completely break what the game is supposed to be.

Dev entitlement and ego isn't a good sales strategy. You can have difficulty sliders in any game.
Sure not everyone needs to play everything. Just don't bitch when you get your team laid off cause of your CrEaTiVe PrOcEsS

 

[AJUMP23]

I want them easier. And shorter.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Co-signed. The satisfaction of earning victory is immensely more enjoyable than the pushover bullshit that tends to permeate games now. I get that not everyone has the time to sit down and develop the skill to beat bosses and finish the game, but I don't really care. Not every game has to be for everyone. Some types of games lend themselves to breezy, accessible experiences; others should be a bit more grueling. Just make it good, dammit.

 

[rkofan87]

Gamers are getting older. Older people have less gaming time but spend the most money. It's not hard to have difficulty options.
Gotta meet your customers where they are. BF6 is just realizing that with their spec requirements after seen a ton of PC gamers playing the game at minimum settings.

this 1000%

 

[DragonNCM]

I'm here to play & enjoy games & not to fucking fight with my controller to execute developers sick minded moves & bullshit enemy mechanics.......
That what Hollow knight is.

 

[PeteBull]

OP, i feel u completely, but u forgetting about 1 thing, skill difference even among hardcore gamers is crazy big, u got time and enjoy hard(est) difficulty but even here on gaf plenty ppl play on normal/ez, when it comes to general gaming population its even more scewed towards ez/normal modes.
And yes, there is 0,0001% of population skilled and driven enough to beat souls games w/o death or even getting hit but its a streamer/viral vid theritory, not something avg ppl can do(even if they would love to do it).

 

[SilentSpecter]

Dev entitlement and ego isn't a good sales strategy. You can have difficulty sliders in any game.
Sure not everyone needs to play everything. Just don't bitch when you get your team laid off cause of your CrEaTiVe PrOcEsS

Lol, "dev entitlement"? Come on. It's not entitlement, it's making the game they actually want to make. Not every game has to be for everyone.

Difficulty sliders sound easy on paper, but in some games they literally break the design. Soulslikes and roguelikes are built around their difficulty - risk/reward, tension, that "finally did it!" moment.
And layoffs? Dude, that happens even when games sell millions. Elden Ring sold over 30 million copies, has no easy mode, and FromSoftware literally built their brand around challenging games - so yeah, that "CrEaTiVe PrOcEsS" thing seems to work.

 

[rkofan87]

Lower difficulty doesn't necessarily mean zero challenge. Bottom line here is know what you are buying before you buy it. Doesn't make sense to complain about a game being too hard when the game is widely known for being hard. Either way, nothing wrong with games varying in difficulty. Not every game is for everybody.

this 1000% as well

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Lol, "dev entitlement"? Come on. It's not entitlement, it's making the game they actually want to make. Not every game has to be for everyone.

Difficulty sliders sound easy on paper, but in some games they literally break the design. Soulslikes and roguelikes are built around their difficulty - risk/reward, tension, that "finally did it!" moment.
And layoffs? Dude, that happens even when games sell millions. Elden Ring sold over 30 million copies, has no easy mode, and FromSoftware literally built their brand around challenging games - so yeah, that "CrEaTiVe PrOcEsS" thing seems to work.

Sliders for How hard or soft enemies hit and How much or little health is taken can be put in any game. That doesn't stop anyone from making the game they want.
The "but you won't get the intended feeling" argument is put on the customer. For them to deal with.

 

[rodrigolfp]

but I really prefer when games don't have any difficulty option, just one single difficulty.

Yeah. All games should have only a "ultra nightmare" difficulty. That would be great. Just git gud, right??? /s

 

[Knightime_X]

When games start to feel easy, it's a clear indication of how much you play.
If you took an extended break from playing, games you once thought easy become significantly more difficult after returning.
As an adult, I am baffled at how I was able to beat certain games the way I did when I was much, much younger, because I certainly can't do it now.

 

[Spyxos]

Nah make games easier. I have neither the time nor the patience to run into a wall for hours on end. You can have your difficult and annoying game, but leave others alone.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

OP, i feel u completely, but u forgetting about 1 thing, skill difference even among hardcore gamers is crazy big

Exactly.

For people who like games to be purposely hard only, how hard should it be.

There's going to be guys speedrunning the game in the first week killing bosses no problem. Then there's avg gamers who just want a hard game to make it challenging and get their money's worth.

So should the game be skewed ultra hard to make it harder for the speedrunner to beat the game? If so, that means your level of Hard is now upped 3 rungs higher to Ultra Hard because the speedrunner wants it to be even harder.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Difficulty settings suck and it's one of the things that makes games like HK and Souls great - they have a vision for what a game is and execute on it

What if their "vision" was actually that they enjoy trolling gamers, seeing them suffer, and watching them bending like pretzels to justify and handwave away even the most obnoxious design decision that would be piled on from every direction if it was in pretty much any other game?

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

There seems to be a disconnect between normal people and dedicated gamers. The latter always fail to realize the significance of the gap between the two. What we consider "easy" most non-gamers or even casuals will think to be very hard. The key here is to understand the differences.

With that knowledge, there's no way the industry can afford to make all or most games harder, because that would alienate a very large majority of consumers needed to keep the gaming industry afloat.

 

[Dacvak]

I'll tell ya, I'm so glad I beat Super Ghouls n Ghosts last month, cause that game (especially to get the true ending) is absolute actual BULLSHIT.

I think beating that game increased my patience by 10x, and now Silksong feels like a gorgeous walk in the park.

 

[64gigabyteram]

it's not even strictly about difficulty, there's a bunch of people that are too impatient to deal with any perceived inconvenience or friction in a game. "Why can't I save anywhere", "How come there's no map", "Why do my weapons break", etc. This isn't to say that you can't dislike these things, but deliberate design choices are being categorized by some as "bad design" or "not respecting my time" because it isn't convenient to them. The recent "corpse run" discussion is a good example - "why do I have to spend 45 seconds running back to the boss after I die", I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a boss rush game? Do you not think the devs considered the full section when they placed the bench? They want the player to survive both that section and the boss to progress.

people get really upset with a game if it dares to inconvenience them in any major way for some reason. Taking someone out of their comfort state by saying that they might need to run back to the boss sometimes, or that they lost all their lives and have to go back to the beginning, or having a really hard boss- it makes some people here really upset even when they claim to be "enthusiast" gamers.

People will spend money on the hobby but not spend time. Or brainpower. This is kind of why i don't like the approach many people have here where it's "games are meant to unwind and help you relax and take yu away from your nagging wife, escape from reality" because then anything with any sort of bite to it gets thrown apart as complete trash. Also why so many retro design philosophies are dead in modern gaming now. No continues, no challenge unless you buy Souls, no nothing.

 

[Tg89]

There seems to be a disconnect between normal people and dedicated gamers. The latter always fail to realize the significance of the gap between the two. What we consider "easy" most non-gamers or even casuals will think to be very hard. The key here is to understand the differences.

With that knowledge, there's no way the industry can afford to make all or most games harder, because that would alienate a very large majority of consumers needed to keep the gaming industry afloat.

This may be true in the example of the extremes like Hollow Knight and Souls.

I don't think it's true for the vast majority of games though. Super Mario Odyssey and Astobot as examples are plenty easy. "Normal people" beat Super Mario 64 just fine, it wasn't "hard" it just had some element of challenge that is no longer present in the franchise. I refuse to believe there's "normal people" out there that find difficulty in these games. Normal people aren't incapable of pressing buttons and developing some sense of timing. Look at games like Overcooked and Split Fiction, these are games people (myself included) played through with their wives and girlfriends who don't touch games without much issue. When did we start assuming the average person is physically handicapped.

 

[Abysse]

Games should be more complex, not just 'hard' for no reason.

When was the last time a game came out with complex mechanics or combat systems? I can't even think of one.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

This may be true in the example of the extremes like Hollow Knight and Souls.

I don't think it's true for the vast majority of games though. Super Mario Odyssey and Astobot as examples are plenty easy. "Normal people" beat Super Mario 64 just fine, it wasn't "hard" it just had some element of challenge that is no longer present in the franchise.

The only option would be to include difficulty settings and let each individual decide for themselves how much or little of a challenge they want.

 

[SilentSpecter]

Sliders for How hard or soft enemies hit and How much or little health is taken can be put in any game. That doesn't stop anyone from making the game they want.
The "but you won't get the intended feeling" argument is put on the customer. For them to deal with.

Nah, it's not that simple. Sliders mess with the whole balance - enemy placement, attack patterns, risk/reward loops… all tuned for a specific challenge.

Lower HP or damage and suddenly fights feel like a wet noodle, and the game stops being what it was meant to be.

That's a misunderstanding of what these games are and why people love them. Challenge, no hand-holding, and overcoming your own limits are the core. Sliders erase that identity.

Elden Ring sold over 30 million copies without an easy mode (and the DLC cranked the challenge even higher). FromSoftware has stuck to a consistent vision for years – hard but rewarding games, and that's exactly why they're so respected.

 

[proandrad]

Games should be more complex, not just 'hard' for no reason.

When was the last time a game came out with complex mechanics or combat systems? I can't even think of one.

Monster hunter wilds?

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

"please make these 200M dollar experiences hard like back in the day when games were made by 2 people in basements"

Can't you see the issues here? Plus we never had as many games releasing as right now. There's difficult games out there as well.

 

[thatJohann]

NO!

 

[Knightime_X]

Difficulty settings suck and it's one of the things that makes games like HK and Souls great - they have a vision for what a game is and execute on it, the difficulty is in the mechanics and not made up stats. Most implementations of difficulty options are just related to giving enemies more health or giving you less resources. You also can't really do difficulty options for a lot of genres - platformers for example (unless you have a dev willing to go through the trouble of designing multiple versions of every world).

Ng+1 and onward is literally just stat boosts to enemies in souls games.
They just become tankier and deal more damage.

Souls games can absolutely have difficulty settings.
Instead of enemy health, damage etc. being 1.0x for base normal difficulty, just change it to 0.75x or less for easy.
That's just one of dozens of ways to adjust challenge.

 

[Thief1987]

OP, why I have a feeling that we won't find a single really hard game in your gaming card? No, fromsoftware slop aren't hard games.