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[Platy]

I love how people wanted more confirmation when it was only her word.
And then he says something and "it is the confirmation" =P

There isn't confirmation of anything.

To be fair this would also probably be humiliating. Especially on a stage.

It is the best to do when there is doubt, but her tweets point that she went on stage when they asked for girls on stage or something...

And even if was awkward to ask on the stage, he could easily turn in a good joke (you know, the ones that BREAK expectations and not reinforce it) by doing the same to a very clearly cisgender macho male dude or reinforcing that he is an adult male, despise being in a game convention would look otherwise or something.

http://twitter.com/QueenThingy/status/384377979738263552

Made me laugh at least... (was by an MTF herself so she's hardly a transphobe)

Transphobic trans people exists, she even admits being called transphobic before on her twitter bio

 

[Warmijwilf]

I think that is a good criticism to the recent social issues movements in the geek sphere of the Internet. But still, also thing feelings about a situation or a gut guess count a lot.

Oh I agree. She later clarified what she meant in private:

"basically some people stick their heads in the sand and say that their emotions are the ultimate thing and should always be respected even if what happened is just a fabrication they invent"

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

i don't see what that has to do with anything?

it sounds like he's speculating based on no personal knowledge of this type of situation

Regardless of who has more knowledge, isn't it problematic to make claims that begin with "Trans people prefer..."? Is there no diversity of opinions and attitudes within the community?

 

[AwakenedCloud]

What is the right way to reference someone you have no idea what gender they are?

I'd go with they. It's gender neutral and is generally accepted even outside of its normal plural use.

 

[NemesisPrime]

The thought of her being a trangender probably never crossed his mind. To him that was just a guy in a funny wig.

Or a cosplayer?

 

[Haunted]

Seems like an honest mistake from the presenter guy. Terribly unfortunate. Shame that it had such a big effect on Laura and made her feel bad and ruined her weekend. :/

I think after something like this happens during a live presentation, there's not much the presenter guy can really do except apologise.

 

[Warmijwilf]

I love how people wanted more confirmation when it was only her word.
And then he says something and "it is the confirmation" =P

There isn't confirmation of anything.



It is the best to do when there is doubt, but her tweets point that she went on stage when they asked for girls on stage or something...

And even if was awkward to ask on the stage, he could easily turn in a good joke (you know, the ones that BREAK expectations and not reinforce it) by doing the same to a very clearly cisgender macho male dude or reinforcing that he is an adult male, despise being in a game convention would look otherwise or something.



Transphobic trans people exists, she even admits being called transphobic before on her twitter bio

Yeah, but she definitely isn't one. She admits being called one for "disagreeing with trans people" on certain subjects and not going with the majority opinion, that doesn't mean she actually is one.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

On the flip side that could be really insulting if they turned out to not be a transgender person. :/

Yeah, but what many people seem to miss is that "it" was also pretty insulting. Even being an honest mistake, is kind of questionable.

 

[Midou]

I'd go with they. It's gender neutral and is generally accepted even outside of its normal plural use.

Yeah, many languages use 'They' as a general respectful way to refer to someone too, so it's a safe bet.

Reading the mod update, makes it seem like another situation where everyone jumped onto a bandwagon too early before all details were revealed. Of course the comedian could be lying but this is why I basically trust no one on the internet.

 

[aeolist]

Regardless of who has more knowledge, isn't it problematic to make claims that begin with "Trans people prefer..."? Is there no diversity of opinions and attitudes within the community?

you'll notice i used the phrasing "trans people generally appreciate..." indicating that i was not making a blanket statement applicable to 100% of the trans population

 

[The Ps4 Looks Great]

Did she ever actually say she was a woman? Cause her picture looks like a dude, and if I asked for a woman and got this guy. I would think someone was trying to bs me

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

you'll notice i used the phrasing "trans people generally appreciate..." indicating that i was not making a blanket statement applicable to 100% of the trans population

But it implies you are speaking about a majority, or what the "average" trans person prefers. I'm just questioning the data you have. Maybe you do have it, of course I couldn't say.

 

[Zornack]

Transphobic trans people exists, she even admits being called transphobic before on her twitter bio

And there are tons of women who are called sexist by extreme feminists, that doesn't mean they are.

 

[Warmijwilf]

you'll notice i used the phrasing "trans people generally appreciate..." indicating that i was not making a blanket statement applicable to 100% of the trans population

So you're indicating we treat people based on how the majority would react and err on that side of caution? So we should treat trans people generally based on the "majority viewpoint"? Because by that logic we should treat ALL people based on the "majority viewpoint" and most people (when you take into account all cis and trans people in the world) wouldn't be pleased with being asked what gender you are.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Awful news. Those comments on her Twitter are absolutely vile.

 

[Nerokis]

I'm not trying to defend the comedian, but, IMO, she should have never taken the issue to Twitter before trying to work it out in a professional manner. Anyone here remember the whole Pycon debacle with Adria Richards? Nothing good was ever going to come from her starting this kind of stuff on Twitter.

I agree. One of the reasons professionalism is useful is that it allows us to work through complicated situations in a productive manner. I'm sorry this happened to Laura, and I know she must have felt humiliated. Still, the issue of making incorrect assumptions about someone's gender, and not picking up on someone's preferred pronouns, calls for a more constructive approach than taking to Twitter to condemn/complain without giving the slightest bit of context.

Now, confusing a transgender person's identity isn't entirely harmless. To an extent, it can reflect close-mindedness, insensitivity, and ignorance. Certainly, it's closely tied to how society as a whole views transgender issues. Nonetheless, it's obviously not always easy to pick up on this aspect of someone's identity, and even in situations where it's less clear whether someone identifies as a man or a woman, you can hardly safely assume they're transgender. And in this case, how comfortable would it have been for the comedian to ask? I think this is an issue that calls for a degree of grace from both sides, and in this case, neither showed an abundance of it.

Of course, Laura is the more sympathetic figure, but that in itself hardly justified the one-sided condemnation seen in this thread - especially considering there hadn't been any conclusive evidence as to what happened (Laura never clarified whether she had any reason to believe the comedian knew her gender, unfortunately), and we had only heard from one side.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Did she ever actually say she was a woman? Cause her picture looks like a dude, and if I asked for a woman and got this guy. I would think someone was trying to bs me

It seems likely that she didn't, because that's not how people start conversations. Again, this is why I wish I could see exactly how it played out because I could sympathize with the comedian's confusion (though not the actions that followed it).

 

[aeolist]

But it implies you are speaking about a majority, or what the "average" trans person prefers. I'm just questioning the data you have. Maybe you do have it, of course I couldn't say.

i personally know four transwomen and they have all told me the same thing. i take their word for it because they know better than i do. i have also gotten the same information from any number of articles and podcasts i have read/listened to.

not once have i come across an example of a trans person taking offense at being asked for their pronoun preference. i'm sure those people exist but i think it's safe to say they're not the majority.

So you're indicating we treat people based on how the majority would react and err on that side of caution? So we should treat trans people generally based on the "majority viewpoint"? Because by that logic we should treat ALL people based on the "majority viewpoint" and most people (when you take into account all cis and trans people in the world) wouldn't be pleased with being asked what gender you are.

personally i think we should take more care not to offend oppressed minorities than the cisgendered majority who don't have to deal with discriminatory bullshit all the time.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Calling a person "it" is not "playing it safe" whether they have an atypical gender identity or not.

A lot of people dont realize that, and use "it" because they don't want to offend by saying either gender.

 

[Warmijwilf]

i personally know four transwomen and they have all told me the same thing. i take their word for it because they know better than i do. i have also gotten the same information from any number of articles and podcasts i have read/listened to.

not once have i come across an example of a trans person taking offense at being asked for their pronoun preference. i'm sure those people exist but i think it's safe to say they're not the majority.


personally i think we should take more care not to offend oppressed minorities than the cisgendered majority who don't have to deal with discriminatory bullshit all the time.

So basically you're advocating that we should err on the side that would generally cause more people to be pissed off but that's ok because they're just cis and it doesn't matter if they're pissed off because it's much better for a cis person to be pissed off than a transperson because they have other issues?

There is so much wrong with that I can't even begin to explain.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

A lot of people dont realize that, and use "it" because they don't want to offend by saying either gender.

Anyone who speaks English natively should know that "it" is not a nice thing to call a person, for any reason. However, I agree that a person could accidentally do it out of ignorance rather than malice.

 

[ReaperXL7]

If you're in a position where you feel like it would be insulting to ask (such as up on stage), you use gender-neutral words (and sure hell not "it").

If you're in a position where you aren't calling attention to the situation in front of hundreds of people, you ask. While I'm sure there are people who are trans who would get offended by your not being able to tell which way they gender themselves by how they're presenting, the majority that I know would appreciate your asking if the answer wasn't clear to you.

This is very true, working in retail I have seen lots of stuff, but I had one customer who was a male to female( no idea the correct terms) and despite wearing a dress, having breasts, and overall looking female to an extent it was somewhat clear that this customer was atleast at some point a man, atleast on a physical level from her facial features. In trying to help her with something I had accidentaly call her "Sir". It was a genuine mistake, but the customer blew up and grabbed her chest saying " you see these! I'm a miss, I'm a miss!". She told my supervisor and stormed out.

Its a sensitive topic I can understand, but getting blown up on for making a mistake is not fun.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Or a cosplayer?

Why not.

 

[Pandanaut]

Did she ever actually say she was a woman? Cause her picture looks like a dude, and if I asked for a woman and got this guy. I would think someone was trying to bs me

We don't know the context, and if Laura was wearing the outfit in her default picture it would make sense for the comedian to say the things he did. Not that saying those things is right - far from it - but if you asked for a woman and got someone with rainbow colored hair it's understandable for the comedian to have the reaction he did.

It's also fair for Laura to be upset about that. I highly doubt the comedian had any way of knowing that he had a transgender person - for all he knew he had a guy in a colorful wig or a girl that had masculine features. It's not like he could bring the whole show to a screeching halt or anything, he was probably having folks buzzing in his ear about time and what have you.

That said, as others have pointed out, this could have easily been avoided by simply asking the people who came up to the stage their names.

This is very likely a case where the truth lies somewhere in the middle. From all of the abuse that Laura has gone through, however, it's easy to see why she would feel as though the guy was railing on her even if he maybe had one or two comments (which are one or two too many, don't get me wrong, but again we just don't know the context).

I can see a scenario where the comedian says something along the lines of "I asked for a woman and you brought me this?" simply due to the outfit that Laura could have been wearing and the wig. It wouldn't have been a malicious, hateful joke - though to Laura it could have been taken that way.

 

[TheStevo]

So now that we got another side of the story, are we still rushing to judgement and crying wolf? Or are we actually not using group-think here?

 

[aeolist]

So basically you're advocating that we should err on the side that would generally cause more people to be pissed off but that's ok because they're just cis and it doesn't matter if they're pissed off because it's much better for a cis person to be pissed off than a transperson because they have other issues?

There is so much wrong with that I can't even begin to explain.

well, it's like saying that cracker is less offensive to a white person than nigger is to a black person. both are technically racist terms but white people are a privileged majority in most parts of the first world so it's not an equal thing.

 

[Zornack]

personally i think we should take more care not to offend oppressed minorities than the cisgendered majority who don't have to deal with discriminatory bullshit all the time.

Do you really think it's realistic to expect people to ask the gender of a person before they refer to them as he or she?

 

[Gestault]

i don't think this is a valid response to someone who's been hurt like this

basically anything other than "i really didn't mean to hurt you and i'm very sorry that i did" is 100% asshole

Even in a situation where the person may be misrepresenting the actual situation?

 

[Mzo]

The thought of her being a trangender probably never crossed his mind. To him that was just a guy in a funny wig.

With boobs. Named Laura.

Trans issue aside, if you get up on stage with a comedian dressed like a brony you know they're just salivating over humiliating you. It's like blood in the water.

I'm gonna have to see a video of the event to make a judgment call. It's obvious that she felt embarrassed and that sucks, and it was a dick move not to talk to her and hash it out afterwards, but I want to see the level of malicious intent, if any, for myself before I jump all over someone.

 

[Faustek]

I can't believe what people are saying over Twitter, I wish I could improve this situation but as a simple person, far way I can't do much. I feel powerless.

As a Community, we, GAFfers could try to always bring some sort of awareness and support for those who need, I'm just not sure how. It's just sad.

Dare to be lame, send her a tweet full of support, not saying you should try and marry her but check out her work. She has some really good things working for her. While I might not always agree with her I always found it more interesting seeing why one person might dislike a thing you might like. It opens up perspective.

 

[Night Angel]

So basically you're advocating that we should err on the side that would generally cause more people to be pissed off but that's ok because they're just cis and it doesn't matter if they're pissed off because it's much better for a cis person to be pissed off than a transperson because they have other issues?

There is so much wrong with that I can't even begin to explain.

Don't bother. I've seen this person's posts in the past. A lot of smug, some mentions of privilege, belittling anyone who disagrees, etc. Just let it go and focus on people who actually want to have a conversation.

 

[aeolist]

Do you really think it's realistic to expect people to ask the gender of a person before they refer to them as he or she?

if it's an ambiguous situation, yes. it's not a difficult thing.

 

[bj00rn_]

Has this been posted?

http://www.purexbox.com/news/2013/09/exclusive_xbox_one_stage_show_twitter_storm_kicks_off

Wait, WTF, I'm almost starting to feel sorry about defending her now..

I feel gullible..

 

[Mzo]

Do you really think it's realistic to expect people to ask the gender of a person before they refer to them as he or she?

Asking for a name isn't that crazy and usually a pretty strong hint in the right direction.

 

[Joni]

This is very true, working in retail I have seen lots of stuff, but I had one customer who was a male to female( no idea the correct terms) and despite wearing a dress, having breasts, and overall looking female to an extent it was somewhat clear that this customer was atleast at some point a man, atleast on a physical level from her facial features. In trying to help her with something I had accidentaly call her "Sir". It was a genuine mistake, but the customer blew up and grabbed her chest saying " you see these! I'm a miss, I'm a miss!". She told my supervisor and stormed out.

What if she wasn't transgender, but just very muscled and has a more male look? Like for instance Amelie Mauresmo who has been called male during her career because she is very muscled and has a strong jawline.

 

[Impeccable]

Wait, WTF, I'm almost starting to feel sorry about defending her now..

I feel gullible..

"PureXbox"

 

[deranged_666]

This entire industry needs a reset button. It needs education about individual respect and gender issues. Not just Microsoft, not just Penny Arcade, the entire industry. People - and even on this very forum - need to take a hard look from a perspective that isn't their own.

Agreed 100 percent. This was also evident reading the comments to the Gamespot review of GTA V. Absolutely disgusting and even borderline disturbing. Part me hopes that these people are just uneducated preteens and teens, but another part of me realizes that a lot of adult gamers also show just as much hatred and intolerance.

I would say that things like this make me ashamed to be a gamer, but it goes deeper than that. Things like this make me ashamed to be a human being.

 

[aeolist]

Don't bother. I've seen this person's posts in the past. A lot of smug, some mentions of privilege, belittling anyone who disagrees, etc. Just let it go and focus on people who actually want to have a conversation.

would you like to respond to the substance of any one of my posts rather than making ad hominem attacks?

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

In the future id suggest that person doesnt go on stage when a comedian asks for volunteers. Its just begging for trouble. Some comedians would have said some things that would make her run off the stage in tears.,

 

[Warmijwilf]

well, it's like saying that cracker is less offensive to a white person than nigger is to a black person. both are technically racist terms but white people are a privileged majority in most parts of the first world so it's not an equal thing.

Just... no, it depends on the context again. If a PoC was to use "cracker" in a hate filled, clearly racially supremacist way, it would be just as bad as if a white person was to use "the n word" in that way, however if cracker is used in the generally slightly jabbing way it usually is (as a mild insult rather than hate fuelled one) then it's not as big a deal as if a white person were to use "the n word" as a mild insult simply because of the oppression, however both when used in a serious, hate fuelled way are just as bad.

Just like in this case the connotations given by asking someone what gender they are is just as insulting to a cis person as it would be "appreciated" by a trans person. And even then, not all trans people do appreciate being asked that. A lot ARE embarrassed, and definitely would be when ON STAGE IN PUBLIC IN FRONT OF 300 PEOPLE where your dysphoria would be BROADCASTED TO ALL OF THEM.

 

[watership]

This guy needs to never EVER get a stage to talk on, ever.

And not a single one of those tweets are his.

Misinformation is already out in full force. I can't get a clear understand of what happened now, due to all the crap out there.

 

[Gestault]

if it's an ambiguous situation, yes. it's not a difficult thing.

Do you recognize that the motivation for calling someone something like "this person" is because they're trying to take the subjects feelings into consideration? In the sense that they don't want to call them by the wrong label.

 

[bj00rn_]

"PureXbox"

? What do you mean? Please tell me you mean you have something more tangible to contribute with other than just a word in a name..? I can't deal with this conspiracy stuff..

 

[aeolist]

Do you recognize that the motivation for calling someone something like "this person" is because they're trying to take the subjects feelings into consideration? In the sense that they don't want to call them by the wrong label.

i don't understand what you're getting at here

 

[Anonumos]

Jesus, that troll twitter account needs to be stopped.

"PureXbox"

Stop with this fanboy stuff. Please stop.

 

[Fornaximus]

At first I was like "hey, that's pretty rude", but then I was like "oh wait, this might have not even happened".

Is it still just he said, she said? No video of the event or anything?

 

[ReaperXL7]

What if she wasn't transgender, but just very muscled and has a more male look? Like for instance Amelie Mauresmo who has been called male during her career because she is very muscled and has a strong jawline.

No, i understand that sometimes it can be hard, or even impossible to tell, but in this case her facial features/ voice/ body type were fairly clearly masculine. I also found out more directly later on through a family member who called to find out what happened.

It does not matter though, as it taught me something at that point. So I try to be as careful as I can in how I talk to people. Alittle hard because I have only been aware of this kind of stuff for a few years, but I try.

 

[Impeccable]

? What do you mean? Please tell me you mean you have something more tangible to contribute with other than just a word in a name..? I can't deal with this conspiracy stuff..

I just think the interests of a website called, "PureXbox" is going to go out of their way to defend a brand and is probably a worse source than anything we currently have.

 

[Zornack]

Is it still just he said, she said?

Yes.

 

[Llyranor]

Have any witnesses spoken up yet?