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[meltingparappa]

she has breasts

how is this hard?

I get what you're saying, but innocently leering for several seconds at her chest on stage to judge if her breast size under a loose t-shirt is enough to count as female beyond a reasonable doubt, the event would result in a different kotaku headline.

 

[Jackson]

she has breasts

how is this hard?

To me, from these pictures it's not obvious. Not at all. Surely not if we just met.

 

[Nerokis]

Just... no, it depends on the context again. If a PoC was to use "cracker" in a hate filled, clearly racially supremacist way, it would be just as bad as if a white person was to use "the n word" in that way, however if cracker is used in the generally slightly jabbing way it usually is (as a mild insult rather than hate fuelled one) then it's not as big a deal as if a white person were to use "the n word" as a mild insult simply because of the oppression, however both when used in a serious, hate fuelled way are just as bad.

Just like in this case the connotations given by asking someone what gender they are is just as insulting to a cis person as it would be "appreciated" by a trans person. And even then, not all trans people do appreciate being asked that. A lot ARE embarrassed, and definitely would be when ON STAGE IN PUBLIC IN FRONT OF 300 PEOPLE where your dysphoria would be BROADCASTED TO ALL OF THEM.

No, those are words that will never be equivalent. Period. Yes, racism is a uniformly bad thing - not all manifestations of it are equal, however, and that includes individual words. You say context matters, yet completely ignore the social context, the historical context, and so forth. Think about it: how could the word "cracker" ever be as hurtful to a white person as the word "n____" is to a black person, considering the former never had to face the incredible discrimination of the latter, and occupies an overall position of privilege in society even today? I mean, you even admit one word is sometimes worse than the other even when used with the exact intent. Frankly, you're being ridiculous here, and that's being kind.

 

[FourMyle]

Whats a cisgender

 

[Warmijwilf]

Yeah, it's not hard to understand that "it" is never appropriate.

According to the comedian that was a completely made up lie and he never called her "it" or "thing". So it's pretty much just Laura's word vs Fraser's.

 

[Cryoflar3]

Has this been posted?

http://www.purexbox.com/news/2013/09/exclusive_xbox_one_stage_show_twitter_storm_kicks_off

So he didn't call her an it but at least he admits he could have handled the situation better.

 

[Anonumos]

This kind of stuff is very tiring.

Are you serious? You're saying that because a site is called "pureXbox" they will try to lie about the events that happened at the show...and you think me ridiculing your post is tiring?

pics[/IMG]

To me, from these pictures it's not obvious. Not at all. Surely not if we just met.

She LOOKS like a nerdy girl/woman who's into video games. At the very least, don't call her "it." Jesus, it's never okay to call ANYONE it.

 

[Pandanaut]

Well I'm glad the comedian wasn't made to feel awkward.

You don't think Laura may have been to some degree embarrassed to be asked in front of a crowd of 350 people whether she was a man or woman?

Let's also say, hypothetically, she wasn't transgendered and got asked that question.

Simply put the comedian should of asked her name and this whole issue would of been moot.

 

[Empty]

ugh, now it's less straightforward this is going to get really messy and ultimately discourage people from coming forwards in the future

 

[polyh3dron]

Whats a cisgender

If you consider yourself to be the gender that your chromosomal makeup dictates then you are cisgendered.

 

[Bomber Bob]

wtf is with that "dropping out of the industry" comment?

maybe she's trying to pull a Phil Fish

 

[Vice]

wtf is with that "dropping out of the industry" comment?

Because gaming is the only "industry" with anti-anything comments/actions by some?

Just call out the person; quit acting like it's anything more than just a few dipshits doing it.

It seems to be more than a few though.

 

[TheStevo]

According to the comedian that was a completely made up lie and he never called her "it" or "thing". So it's pretty much just Laura's word vs Fraser's.

Which is odd since there was another 300 people there. There's got to be some recording of the ordeal.

 

[Warmijwilf]

No, those are words that will never be equivalent. Period. Yes, racism is a uniformly bad thing - not all manifestations of it are equal, however, and that includes individual words. You say context matters, yet completely ignore the social context, the historical context, and so forth. Think about it: how could the word "cracker" ever be as hurtful to a white person as the word "n____" be to a black person, considering the former never had to face the incredible discrimination of the latter, and occupies an overall position of privilege in society even today? I mean, you even admit one word is sometimes worse than the other even when used with the exact intent. Frankly, you're being ridiculous here, and that's being kind.

Ah, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, apologies.

What I was saying was the n_____ word has far more connotations than "cracker" does, which is why it's profoundly worse when said even in a lightly joking way than if "cracker" was.

What I was also saying was the same feeling of hatred and intimidation would come off from a black supremacist saying "cracker" to a white person than there would be of a white supremacist saying n_____ to a black person, simply because of the context of both being incredibly hateful to the victim because of the colour of their skin. Probably there would be more with the latter, but merely the context of it being hate fuelled would make both pretty serious things and both, whilst one moreso, around the same detestable level.

 

[Night Angel]

Whats a cisgender

A cisgender is someone who was born one gender and identifies with that gender. Basically, someone who isn't transgender. Unfortunately, the more militant activists use it as a slur or a basis to disregard arguments.

 

[Impeccable]

Are you serious? You're saying that because a site is called "pureXbox" they will try to lie about the events that happened at the show...and you think me ridiculing your post is tiring?

I never implied they'd "lie" I'm saying that a website called, "PureXbox" (which by the way is the first time I've heard of it.) is not necessarily going to be the peak of journalistic integrity and to take the word of that website as having more weight of truth than of the victim herself is a questionable choice.

 

[Jackson]

You don't think Laura may have been to some degree embarrassed to be asked in front of a crowd of 350 people whether she was a man or woman?

Let's also say, hypothetically, she wasn't transgendered and got asked that question.

Simply put the comedian should of asked her name and this whole issue would of been moot.

That only works if the name isn't gender neutral.

"What's your name?"

"Sam."

"...."

It's a tough situation when done on stage in real time. He says he said "this person", she said he said "it" and "thing". I say... show me the video!

 

[GrizzleBoy]

To me, from these pictures it's not obvious. Not at all. Surely not if we just met.

Even a dark room couldn't convince me on first glance.......sorry o_o

 

[Jackson]

She LOOKS like a nerdy girl/woman who's into video games. At the very least, don't call her "it." Jesus, it's never okay to call ANYONE it.

No, to me she LOOKS like a nerdy androgynous, skinny guy.

And the comedian claims he never called her it... So... it's a he said/she said thing right now.

 

[everthustodeadbeats]

If Microsoft would have hired Lisa Lampanelli, none of this would have ever happened.

 

[J_Lee]

To me, from these pictures it's not obvious. Not at all. Surely not if we just met.

If calling Laura a "he" is offensive, asking what gender she identifies with is wrong than what do you do? I mean if Laura is called "he" or "this person" then why doesn't she just say I consider my self female. I was called a girl by people that didn't know me up until the age of about 8 or 9 because I had long blonde hair, but I would correct the person as soon as they said it.

 

[badb0y]

the truth will come out soon enough

 

[Pandanaut]

That only works if the name isn't gender neutral.

"What's your name?"

"Sam."

"...."

It's a tough situation when done on stage in real time. He says he said "this person", she said he said "it" and "thing". I say... show me the video!

That's an excellent point as well, and also one I didn't think of.

I also agree - the only way to really solve this issue is for there to be a video. At this point I am inclined to believe it wasn't malicious and the whole issue may have been blown out of proportion. That said, it's easy to understand why Laura got defensive, however, considering that vitriol is something she deals with on a day-to-day basis it seems.

 

[Lambda Pie]

To me, from these pictures it's not obvious. Not at all. Surely not if we just met.

it does look like a dude cosplaying with a rainbow wig in those pictures.

 

[Imperfected]

That only works if the name isn't gender neutral.

"What's your name?"

"Sam."

"...."

It's a tough situation when done on stage in real time. He says he said "this person", she said he said "it" and "thing". I say... show me the video!

I believe the implication was that if he had asked Laura her name, he could have then simply called her "Laura" from then on out and not had to use pronouns to begin with.

 

[charlequin]

According to the comedian that was a completely made up lie and he never called her "it" or "thing". So it's pretty much just Laura's word vs Fraser's.

To be honest I don't really care much what he says after the fact; anyone who did something like this is going to be predisposed to remember it in their own favor when called on it.

 

[Kimawolf]

it does look like a dude cosplaying with a rainbow wig in those pictures.

About the same thing I was thinking, if you didn't know her you'd think it was some dude in a rainbow wig.

 

[Self_Destructive]

I look at those pics and all I see is an Adam's Apple.


Regardless, referring to anyone as 'thing' or 'it', is offensive, and obviously moreso to someone who is Transgendered, if that's what really happened here.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Uh yeah I can't blame the guy for not being able to tell. That's quite an adams apple.

 

[Dictator93]

Even a dark room couldn't convince me on first glance.......sorry o_o

obviously some brutal honesty....

BUt beyond such comments... I think everyone needs to relax a bit until more information comes out.

We have no idea what happened beyond the word of a single person (to my knowledge). We do not know intentions, circumstances, or context (maybe the guy just misspoke).

Until we learn more, I think we should follow the whole "do not speak about which we cannot possibly know."

 

[Faustek]

o

Warning I talk about Hitler in a really stupid fashion.

There it is.

Not immediately recognizing someone's transgendered identity and calling someone "this person" as opposed to a proper pronoun is tantamount to holocaust denial.

You heard it here first, folks.

Yepp, but when dealing with stupidity you must lower your argument to be stupid else the message will be lost. Never ever try to be above the persons you are discussing with or else all will be rendered moot.

Then again we saw the other side now. I really want to see if any of the 350 people there will stand up and speak. Or we will be left hanging with two opposing tales.

 

[MasterRain]

The real problem is the insults people are throwing at her now. By complaining on twitter she has baited all the trolls to attack her, and I don't really know why she keeps RT-ing them other than wanting sympathy, which is fair enough I guess.

 

[polyh3dron]

She LOOKS like a nerdy girl/woman who's into video games.

You don't see how there could be any confusion based on those pictures?

 

[Pandanaut]

I believe the implication was that if he had asked Laura her name, he could have then simply called her "Laura" from then on out and not had to use pronouns to begin with.

This is true, too. It may make for some awkward spots where someone is conditioned to say he, she, him or her but it is much safer than guessing and being wrong or saying it or thing.

 

[PandaL]

Do anyone know why they hired a comedian for this event?

 

[meltingparappa]

If Microsoft would have hired Lisa Lampanelli, none of this would have ever happened.

I would love Konami to make a triumphant return to E3 press events by having Don Rickles hosting theirs.

Do anyone know why they hired a comedian for this event?

You either hire a comedian or have a VP of marketing do it. Usually makes for a better show for everyone involved if they do the former.

 

[Warmijwilf]

To be honest I don't really care much what he says after the fact; anyone who did something like this is going to be predisposed to remember it in their own favor when called on it.

Surely that also goes to how Laura remembers it too?

Generally, a lot of discriminated minorities are more sensitive to genuine mistakes and would take it as something that meant more than it was. That's totally understandable given the history of this kind of thing, but it doesn't suddenly make her right and him wrong.

 

[Jackson]

To be honest I don't really care much what he says after the fact; anyone who did something like this is going to be predisposed to remember it in their own favor when called on it.

That works on both sides of the coin though...

The opposite side of this argument being made is that Laura is predisposed to hear hate. So when he said "this person", she heard "it".

Or so the comedian claims.

 

[Dictator93]

To be honest I don't really care much what he says after the fact; anyone who did something like this is going to be predisposed to remember it in their own favor when called on it.

and vice versa right?

word against word is hard to judge upon... especially in a topic which can easily be victim centric. Let us wait for more witnesses and info imo.

 

[CookTrain]

To be honest I don't really care much what he says after the fact; anyone who did something like this is going to be predisposed to remember it in their own favor when called on it.

That's a door that swings both ways if ever I've seen it. People misremember things and usually in their own favour.

 

[Gestault]

To be honest I don't really care much what he says after the fact; anyone who did something like this is going to be predisposed to remember it in their own favor when called on it.

I hope you understand how ridiculous a point of view this is: to take an unsubstantiated claim at face value but to dismiss an opposing viewpoint from the person whom it would damage.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Before this goes into some slut-shaming level of "well wearing that OF COURSE" etc, it is perhaps a lesson that if you're looking to be taken seriously as a transgender and fight for your cause/get fed up of confusion, a comedy rainbow wig is not helping your position in any way shape or form.

Hopefully video surfaces or more people come forward. A GAFfer there saying this is all overblown isn't painting a particularly good outcome for Laura if this does turn out to be a massively inappropriate response and mis-fire. The end result will be a PR mandate to completely avoid any and all androgynous people when asking for volunteers and that in turn will make them feel slighted. Things don't change if you keep making people afraid to go near you and yours for fear of an internet meltdown getting you fired.

 

[Night Angel]

I hope you understand how ridiculous a point of view this is: to take an unsubstantiated claim at face value but to dismiss an opposing viewpoint from the person whom it would damage.

Why is it ridiculous? Kotaku does it all the time!

 

[Warmijwilf]

The real problem is the insults people are throwing at her now. By complaining on twitter she has baited all the trolls to attack her, and I don't really know why she keeps RT-ing them other than wanting sympathy, which is fair enough I guess.

This is my main problem with the whole scenario. She's receiving abuse because she's trans. They're the horrible people here who should be the subject of the pitchforks, not the guy who, as it seems, made a genuine mistake and handled it badly because of the pressure.

 

[shuri]

wtf is with that "dropping out of the industry" comment?

Because gaming is the only "industry" with anti-anything comments/actions by some?

Just call out the person; quit acting like it's anything more than just a few dipshits doing it.

Well, some people live very sheltered lives.

 

[Nerokis]

Ah, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, apologies.

What I was saying was the n_____ word has far more connotations than "cracker" does, which is why it's profoundly worse when said even in a lightly joking way than if "cracker" was.

What I was also saying was the same feeling of hatred and intimidation would come off from a black supremacist saying "cracker" to a white person than there would be of a white supremacist saying n_____ to a black person, simply because of the context of both being incredibly hateful to the victim because of the colour of their skin. Probably there would be more with the latter, but merely the context of it being hate fuelled would make both pretty serious things and both, whilst one moreso, around the same detestable level.

Ah, you're saying both have the potential to be offensive, hurtful, and victimizing, and so one being worse than the other doesn't necessarily justify either being used?

Nevermind on the "ridiculous" thing, then. I think I see the point you're making, although I disagree with the way you're applying it.

 

[charlequin]

To be more specific, the he said she said frame inherently favors the accused over the accuser. Accusers should be given more credence than the reflexive denials of the accused, just like we don't generally assume an arrested suspect for a murder is innocent because he says he didn't do it.

 

[Night Angel]

This is my main problem with the whole scenario. She's receiving abuse because she's trans. They're the horrible people here who should be the subject of the pitchforks, not the guy who, as it seems, made a genuine mistake and handled it badly because of the pressure.

Agreed 100%. If it turns out that the guy was being malicious, then fire away, but we know for a fact what these assclowns on Twitter are all about.

 

[Raoh]

Looks like a young Major Nelson

 

[Tookay]

To be honest I don't really care much what he says after the fact; anyone who did something like this is going to be predisposed to remember it in their own favor when called on it.

Insane viewpoint. And somebody who might be predisposed to be defensive and misinterpret things because of daily occurrences is more reliable.... Why?