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[charlequin]

So basically, because a he said she said framework inherently favors the accused over the accuser, it should actually inherently favor the accuser over the accused, because we don't generally take a murder suspect's denials at face value, although we generally presume innocence, and in practice this all highly varies on a case by case basis.

Your argument would be bad enough if it didn't originally begin with "I only care what one side says."

Talking about something on the internets is not the same as prosecuting someone for a crime in a court of law. If we require people to show up with video and physical evidence just to have their claims of harassment taken seriously then most victims will have no recourse.

Like I said, I don't want any consequences for the comedian unless saying "guess I made a mistake" is a consequence.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

Twix needs to step in here and give both of them a lifetime supply of Twix to pause time

Also that comedian is clearly a fucking git because he still didn't apologize

The issue arises with the accused feeling wronged if he genuinely doesn't think he did anything to deserve the accusation. If the accuser is somehow misinterpreting the situation, whether that is remembering the events wrong or even (and likely not in this case) exaggerating events, then the accused would not feel burdened with the responsibility of apologizing. Apology is a tacit admission of guilt. While it would let this shitstorm blow over, it would likely wrongly taint his reputation should he prove to be innocent of the accusation.

 

[CookTrain]

A misunderstanding which he still hasn't had the spine to truly apologize for, soooo....

And what about if it's a false accusation stemming from said misunderstanding, are you beying for the inverse apology too?

We have no idea what actually happened, how do we even know who should be apologising?

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

I don't... I don't even have words strong enough to express how disgusted I am. Fuck the asshole who did that, being a "comedian" is not a goddamn "get out of jail free" card.

 

[JonathanEx]

Transgender gaming journalists. Since when has this been a thing?

Since when people can do jobs.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

The really shitty thing is how many people on here, and gamers in general, think this was OK.

Are people really saying it was "OK" or are they just questioning how it all unfolded? The latter is crucial to establishing intentions and therefore degree of blame and outrage.

 

[Prince Vultan]

He should have just asked the person's name if he was unsure on which pronoun to use. Then just reference the person by name.

This was my thinking as well. Why didn't he just ask her name to start with?

 

[Warmijwilf]

The really shitty thing is how many people on here, and gamers in general, think this was OK.

Well clearly you haven't been keeping up, because the story isn't quite as simple as "He called her a thing/it". It's word v word at this point. We have no idea if he did or didn't. She's claiming he did, he's claiming she's lying. There's no evidence either way and honestly, his story is far more believable at this point, especially when considering the context.

 

[Jackson]

I don't... I don't even have words strong enough to express how disgusted I am. Fuck the asshole who did that, being a "comedian" is not a goddamn "get out of jail free" card.

You need to read more than just the OP me thinks...

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

This was my thinking as well. Why didn't he just ask her name to start with?

He's presenting on stage, probably wrangling multiple volunteers. It could be hard in that kind of situation to learn and refer to everyone by name.

In another situation, that would indeed be the obvious solution.

 

[Dictator93]

The really shitty thing is how many people on here, and gamers in general, think this was OK.

No one seems to be defending the idea of purposefully hurting someones feeling based upon how they view their gender.

People seem to be defending the idea that we need more information before we judge. Also... that this thing called "mistakes" happen.

I personally would dislike it if it was done on purpose and referencing the gender. But since I do not know... I cannot judge until more information is available.

 

[Portugeezer]

OK.

So....was the presenter not aware she was a male at birth and still looks like one but prefers to be called a women?

Or was the presenter aware, and just being a dickhead?

I need some context here? Is there a video of this?

What's the story behind it?

Could also have been a woman at birth who wants to be a man, goes both ways.

So yes, obviously he knew she was transgender but you can't automatically tell which way. Whether he called her "it" or a "thing" is now also disputed.

If the presenters first language was English and he called her "it" then it's shameful.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

A misunderstanding which he still hasn't had the spine to truly apologize for, soooo....

His statement was very carefully worded, so I think that's down to him wanting to keep his legal options open. He's accused her of defamation, so if he wants to pursue that, it doesn't make sense to provide a thorough apology that would be used against him as evidence of his guilt.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

The really shitty thing is how many people on here, and gamers in general, think this was OK.

The really shitty thing is how many people on here, and people in general, think this is OK:
automatically assuming this man is guilty of what the accuser is saying--it's not even slightly possible that this is all a misunderstanding.

One shouldn't have to admit guilt to something that they didn't do, just because your limited view into the spat has inflamed your sense of moral outrage.

 

[HappehLemons]

350 people saw this, why has no one spoken up?

 

[fijim]

If your gender isn't obvious, and someone is put on the spot in a situation where they would normally say he or she, but they don't know... saying "this person" seems like an acceptable option.

If your gender is not obvious,you have to accept people may get confused.

 

[Warmijwilf]

This was my thinking as well. Why didn't he just ask her name to start with?

Performers/hosts have generally stopped doing that recently when it comes to hosts in a lot of different areas. A lot of people don't like to have to be forced to give our personal information (even if it's nothing that you can be negatively affected by in the long run) just to be a volunteer on stage, a lot of people may want to remain anonymous. Although in this case it would've made sense, it may have been a combination of that and other things that was too much for him to really make a solid decision of how he reacted.

Besides, for all he knew she could've been called Sam or Ashley or something unisex and it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference and in fact made it MORE awkward. Not to mention the fact that it is possible to have a name of the opposite sex that isn't generally used.

 

[BronsonLee]

The issue arises with the accused feeling wronged if he genuinely doesn't think he did anything to deserve the accusation. If the accuser is somehow misinterpreting the situation, whether that is remembering the events wrong or even (and likely not in this case) exaggerating events, then the accused would not feel burdened with the responsibility of apologizing. Apology is a tacit admission of guilt. While it would let this shitstorm blow over, it would likely wrongly taint his reputation should he prove to be innocent of the accusation.

The studio rep apologized, and yet this guy didn't. He said he wouldn't do it again after the fact, then got supremely defensive when directly asked about it. For all of the things about wanting to talk to her face to face about it, a good way to start that would be to fucking apologize on Twitter, no?

And what about if it's a false accusation stemming from said misunderstanding, are you beying for the inverse apology too?

We have no idea what actually happened, how do we even know who should be apologising?

Certainly. But considering they trumped him and a studio rep out mere hours after the situation was talked about on Twitter, the likelihood of that is...rather low

His statement was very carefully worded, so I think that's down to him wanting to keep his legal options open. He's accused her of defamation, so if he wants to pursue that, it doesn't make sense to provide a thorough apology that would be used against him as evidence of his guilt.

At first? Sure. Of course it was carefully worded. Then he got asked about it directly and it came off more 'I'm a comic, guys, I didn't do anything!'

The guy is probably getting a beatdown from the people who hired them right now Hard to tweet when your agent and MS people are screaming at you and probably told you to keep radio silence while they think about what to say

This too. They probably lit him on fire about it.

 

[Mugatu]

Well clearly you haven't been keeping up, because the story isn't quite as simple as "He called her a thing/it". It's word v word at this point. We have no idea if he did or didn't. She's claiming he did, he's claiming she's lying. There's no evidence either way and honestly, his story is far more believable at this point, especially when considering the context.

And that has what to do with people defending the practice of referring to transgender people as 'it?"

 

[Pie and Beans]

If we require people to show up with video and physical evidence just to have their claims of harassment taken seriously then most victims will have no recourse.

Sorry, but yes, that is how it is and should always work. This isn't the start of mediocre Gervais flick The Invention Of Lying.

Anyone can make claims or indeed mistakenly misheard something themselves. Expecting someone to just eat the shit because enough internet people are angry about is the exact reason the social justice movements core base of imposing fear is such an unhealthy one for all causes under their ever expanding umbrella. The end result is total segregation of the affected minority for fear of inducing another shitwave.

 

[dengatron]

You need to read more than just the OP me thinks...

or read the op in the first place. the part about him supposedly refering to them as "this person" is in there.

 

[Impeccable]

Besides, for all he knew she could've been called Sam or Ashley or something unisex and it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference and in fact made it MORE awkward.

How would it be more awkward to refer to a person by their name instead of "it"?

 

[ItIsOkBro]

After seeing the red shirt pictures I can 100% sympathize with the comedian's confusion about the journalist's intended gender presentation.

The wig also seriously confuses the issue. It's the most salient thing about her appearance, and there's nothing anti-trans about thinking it's weird. The comedian could have easily believed he was mocking less sacred aspects of this person's identity (i.e., cosplay nonsense) and only after the fact was he made aware of her gender identity and the sensitivities surrounding it.

That doesn't prove a lack of malice or disrespect for her trans-ness but I see it as one plausible scenario.

red shirt pictures?

 

[Lambda Pie]

asking the name doesn't always work, names can be unisex.

 

[Warmijwilf]

And that has what to do with people defending the practice of referring to transgender people as 'it?"

Nothing, but nobody has said that it's ok to call transgendered people "it", so I have no idea what you're going on about.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

This was my thinking as well. Why didn't he just ask her name to start with?

If the comedian didnt ask anyone else their name before he got to her and then asked her name, i could just as easily see them complaining about that as well.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

And that has what to do with people defending the practice of referring to transgender people as 'it?"

Show me the people on this forum that are championing the use of the word "it" to describe transgender people.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

A misunderstanding which he still hasn't had the spine to truly apologize for, soooo....

Well, he referred to her as "this person" because he couldn't make out the gender, which is understandable if you ask me.
She on the other hand came up with a number of accusations which are, according to Millward, misunderstandings.
And I believe him, because why would he lie about something that was beeing watched by several hundred witnesses?

The two need to talk to each other and clear things up.
Nobody needs to apologize publicly here.

 

[opticalmace]

He's presenting on stage, probably wrangling multiple volunteers. It could be hard in that kind of situation to learn and refer to everyone by name.

In another situation, that would indeed be the obvious solution.

Could just do it for the person he wasn't sure about. It would be a little embarassing but it's a much better way out than what he did.

 

[CookTrain]

Certainly. But considering they trumped him and a studio rep out mere hours after the situation was talked about on Twitter, the likelihood of that is...rather low

You're ignoring other motives. If someone came out swinging that I was behaving in a fashion that I did not... my first instincts would not be to sit on my thumbs and let that train build up a head of steam. I wouldn't be looking to apologise to my accuser either.

What's wrong with just saying we don't know right now? Why try and cast premature aspersions against anyone?

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

You need to read more than just the OP me thinks...

It changed just as I was typing my comment.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

If somebody comes up to a comedian dressed as some sort of rainbow horse fantasy creature I see no problem with the comedian using "it" or "thing" as a playful jab.

If you are going to shamelessly appropriate clown culture don't be surprised if people don't take you seriously.

 

[Warmijwilf]

How would it be more awkward to refer to a person by their name instead of "it"?

Because if he only asked her name but didn't ask the other people up on stage (which he supposedly didn't when they stepped up), it would've been extremely obvious and basically asking the same thing, "what gender are you" which offends most people.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Could just do it for the person he wasn't sure about. It would be a little embarassing but it's a much better way out than what he did.

He could indeed, but it's hard to make optimal decisions in a situation like that. Public speaking is stressful and requires concentration, and unexpected occurrences will sometimes lead to mistakes. This could have been one of those times.

red shirt pictures?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84030729&postcount=860

 

[polyh3dron]

The really shitty thing is how many people on here, and gamers in general, think this was OK.

The really shitty thing is how people on here think this kind of drive-by post that doesn't even take into consideration the whole thread that came before it and doesn't add to the discussion is OK.

 

[Subtle]

Sounds like an honest mistake looking at the picture. At first glance I wouldn't be able to tell either. He was probably "in the zone" and didn't really think his words through. "This person" would've been miles better. I'm not excusing the comedians actions, but I can see where he's coming from.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

The really shitty thing is how many people on here, and gamers in general, think this was OK.

Now that I've heard the other side I'm more disappointed in Laura's behaviour. This could have been handled professionally but instead she took an honest misunderstanding without any malicious intent and turned it into a clickbait witch hunt.

 

[Shane]

how was she dressed at this industry event? Was she really wearing a multi colored wig and rabbit hears? At an professional industry event?

Need more infos!

Eurogamer Expo is an open convention. Mix of VIP, press and general public.

This 'event' was just a stand in the middle of the ground floor next to the Xbox One game booths. I could hear this guy on the microphone trying to get people over etc. Think they were getting people on the stand to win Xbox branded clothing and merchandise.

I was too busy trying to get hands-on time with games to pay much attention.

 

[zsidane]

Saying that the guy is not a permanent microsoft employee is the lamest excuse possible. You hired the guy to entertain people and promote your products deal, then with it.

 

[Jenga]

The really shitty thing is how people on here think this kind of drive-by post that doesn't even take into consideration the whole thread that came before it and doesn't add to the discussion is OK.

*vroom*

*bang bang*

"one liner making fun of people/thread/thread topic"

*vroom*

 

[shuri]

Eurogamer Expo is an open convention. Mix of VIP, press and general public.

This 'event' was just a stand in the middle of the ground floor next to the Xbox One game booths. I could here this guy on the microphone trying to get people over etc. Think they were getting people on the stand to win Xbox branded clothing and merchandise.

I was too busy trying to get hands-on time with games to pay much attention.

Oh now I see, I was under the impression that it was some sort of stage presentation with a big audience and etc.

 

[Impeccable]

Can anyone link me to "the otherside" without giving me a link to "PureXbox"?

Do we have the story from any reputable sources yet?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

The really shitty thing is how people on here think this kind of drive-by post that doesn't even take into consideration the whole thread that came before it and doesn't add to the discussion is OK.

Thank you, good sir.

 

[Mory Dunz]

Because of the edits to the OP, I didn't read all the previous pages. What seems to be the general consensus on GAF now that everything is out?

 

[Shane]

Oh now I see, I was under the impression that it was some sort of stage presentation with a big audience and etc.

Understandable.

Because of the edits to the OP, I didn't read all the previous pages. What seems to be the general consensus on GAF now that everything is out?

No change. Posts still rolling in that appear to be oblivious to anything other than the title thread.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Saying that the guy is not a permanent microsoft employee is the lamest excuse possible. You hired the guy to entertain people and promote your products deal, then with it.

MS should apologize for the incident, but they are in no way to blame for it. What could they have done to vet this comedian to make sure he wouldn't make a mistake (or intentional insult, I still don't know) like this while on stage. It was unforeseeable. Can you make a case that this could have been prevented by some kind of background check?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

Because of the edits to the OP, I didn't read all the previous pages. What seems to be the general consensus on GAF now that everything is out?

Some posters believe that we should wait for further information before jumping on either side.

Others automatically assume the accuser is in the right.

Others made pointless drive-by posts.

Throw in some actually pretty good discussion here and there.

End result: who the fuck knows?

 

[Pie and Beans]

Can anyone link me to "the otherside" without giving me a link to "PureXbox"?

Do we have the story from any reputable sources yet?

Its in the OP:

"Staff apologised to her, but every single part of the first sentence of that tweet is made up. We called for more women so as to balance things up as there were mostly male gamers on stage, yes. There are ways of complaining in a mature way, but this is inflammatory and slanderous. 350 witnesses saw that this did not happen and that I didn't say those things. I would like to speak to her face to face to sort this out, but she's taken to Twitter and now I'm getting hundreds of tweets per minute." We asked what could have sparked these claims if this indeed did not happen, Mr. Millward said that "I referred to her as 'this person', at which point some of the crowd laughed. I should have diffused that situation, but I think that is what's caused this to happen. I did not refer to the woman as 'thing' or 'it' at any point."

So far we have one Tweeter that reacted supporting Laura's view but we're not sure if he was actually there and heard it or simple accepted her tweets as facts, and in this thread a GAFfer was there and said this has been hugely overblown. So, very much at completely equal he said, she said.

 

[cheststrongwell]

Because of the edits to the OP, I didn't read all the previous pages. What seems to be the general consensus on GAF now that everything is out?

Nobody knows. Lot's of people on her side and lots of people waiting for evidence.

 

[Sentenza]

I think it was a misunderstanding. I believe what this Millward guy said.

I don't necessarily believe him, but let's just say his version of the story (being a little awkward/slipping while thinking on his feet) sounds a bit more likely than a scenario where a presenter at a Microsoft event deliberately and repeatedly humiliates a bystander for being transgender.

Anyway, I'm confident some filmed proof will emerge at some point.