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[Conezays]

I think it's fair to say that the majority of us cannot accurately comment on the situation, outside of saying that making fun of transgendered people is wrong. However, Millward has denied doing such a thing at this point, so we don't know the full story.

If Laura is taking this misunderstanding ("this person," which to me isn't offensive, but your opinion may differ) to champion her own cause, then that is another issue entirely. People suggesting Millward make strong apologies clearly don't get the legal reasoning behind Microsoft's statement.

In short, if he did refer to it as "it," that is offensive and reprehensible. However, if she did make up those accusations, then I do think it's defamatory and slanderous to Millward's name.

(To be clear, I am decidedly pro-LGBT, so please refrain from suggesting I'm not )

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Hey Laura! (since I read that you were following the thread)

Don't take this as a reason to hate gaming, you hear much much worse (or read) in any online game. But I'm 100% behind you on this. Had to be really hurtful. Bad choice on comedian there MS.

I don't hold that against MS as a whole. I love how progressive their stance is on GLBT issues and with their employees. But a screw up is a screw up. And if I would have been there it would have been lottas "Boo!!" from my corner.

I'm amazed and disheartened to see some are using this as console war fodder. Not everything is about your silly cock measuring contests guys.

 

[Warmijwilf]

First off, let's get one thing straight. She's a woman, so, no, being offended when referred with a masculine pronoun is not ridiculous. It's offensive. Would you walk up to her and refer to her as a "he" in person?

...

I've read through the OP, read most of the thread, and here's what I honestly think.

Now, reading both sides I don't know who to believe. Looking at the pictures of Laura, I wouldn't blame the comedian for calling her a "he" – she seems to be in the early stages of transition and still has many masculine features. It's not entirely clear, from the pictures posted in this thread, that she has boobs.But maybe she was wearing tighter clothing on the day of. Now, I don't know the exact context, but repeatedly calling her he – let alone "it" – if she told him after the first incident, is unacceptable. That's insulting. However, if he was unsure he could've used another address as m0dus pointed out.

I think Microsoft, since they hired him, should apologize as a courtesy, but they're not really to blame here.

There's nothing to say she informed him she was a girl after the first time he said he as a mistake, or even if he said "he" or anything else at all, it's a confusing mess.

 

[MesserWolf]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

I think you are vastly underestimating this phenomenon .....

I know for fact that male doctors are recommended to never be alone in a room with a female patient during ambulatory, and always have a nurse around (at least hearing distance), in order to prevent false accusation of sexual harassment / rape. This is done not because of paranoia, but because false accusations happen.

Being a moderator on the internet, you should know that there is a lot of people desperate for attention....

Not to mention people willing to lie to extort money taking your reputation as hostage.

Frankly a skewed approach in favour of the accuser is just unacceptable. It guarantees abuses.

 

[The Librarian]

There's nothing to say she informed him she was a girl after the first time he said he as a mistake, or even if he said "he" or anything else at all, it's a confusing mess.

That's why I said "if."

 

[HaRyu]

Bit surprised there's no video up on youtube of the event...

...yet.

 

[Warmijwilf]

That's why I said "if."

Aye fair enough, was just posting that in case anyone saw your post and thought it was some sort of proven fact - misconceptions have happened here, including one dimwit posting tweets from a troll twitter and claiming it was the comedian in question, and then people who didn't read the whole thread assumed that was the case and were even reposting it.

 

[antonz]

With conflicting stories there is no way to honestly take a side without showing immediate bias.

I can imagine how bombarded he is being on twitter considering the number of people who are going to take sides regardless of what information is available.

Until there is definitive proof of deliberate attempts at insulting we have at best a misunderstood situation.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

More 'good' news from Microsoft. Totally vile as per usual. They'd just throw more bucks to do some damage control though.

You make it sound as if MS regularly does things as offensive as insulting a transgendered person in a public space...

 

[Data Ghost]

I have read through this thread with interest and it's difficult to work out what went down. What I will say however is that looking at Laura's Twitter profile she IMO looks like a guy in a wig. Please don't take that in a derogatory way but as a human being that is what I saw when I looked at the pics. Unfortunately Laura is potentially very sensitive to this fact and this is POSSIBLY the reason why this whole thing has blown up. If you look like a guy wearing a woman's wig you shouldn't expect every person you encounter to know that you are transgender and not in fancy dress.

I know some of you won't like my comments but let's tone down the political correctness here and be a little honest with ourselves. It was an Expo, people dress up, he was caught on the hop. It's not hard to see how this can happen.

 

[NeededSleep]

Why are we not talking about the real issue here. Fucking rainbow hair...WHY. Makes me want to punch babies.

 

[Pie and Beans]

With conflicting stories there is no way to honestly take a side without showing immediate bias.

I can imagine how bombarded he is being on twitter considering the number of people who are going to take sides regardless of what information is available.

Until there is definitive proof of deliberate attempts at insulting we have at best a misunderstood situation.

Right now we have one GAFfer above saying he never said "it" as a witness to the event. So, really, gonna have to have someone support Laura's position that was actually there too or this is going to set a really ugly precedent for this sort of shit and actually be another thing the trans community has to sigh about.

 

[UNCMark]

With conflicting stories there is no way to honestly take a side without showing immediate bias.

I can imagine how bombarded he is being on twitter considering the number of people who are going to take sides regardless of what information is available.

Until there is definitive proof of deliberate attempts at insulting we have at best a misunderstood situation.

Yep, now we have someone saying he was there and heard nothing of the sort. Impossible to take a side now, but I am going to presume he's innocent until proven otherwise. He deserves that.

 

[Coppanuva]

Yep, now we have someone saying he was there and heard nothing of the sort. Impossible to take a side now, but I am going to presume he's innocent until proven otherwise. He deserves that.

Exactly my opinion here. If we're supposed to think people are innocent of crimes until proven guilty, I think it's worth doing in these scenarios as well.

 

[Sakura]

Sounds like a misunderstanding to me. Looking at the pictures, I can understand if the comedian had a hard time understanding the gender, or maybe even if the person was just dressing up that way or something. In retrospect there may have been better ways of referring to her instead of "this person", but I have a hard time believing he was up on the stage referring to her as 'it' and trying to insult her or anything.

 

[Impeccable]

Right now we have one GAFfer above saying he never said "it" as a witness to the event. So, really, gonna have to have someone support Laura's position that was actually there too or this is going to set a really ugly precedent for this sort of shit and actually be another thing the trans community has to sigh about.

I am going to take shit for this but that poster has like four posts on NeoGAF so we have no way to understand how they operate.

 

[Sentenza]

With conflicting stories there is no way to honestly take a side without showing immediate bias.

Shouldn't that be, you know, the standard procedure until what actually happened gets clarified?

 

[Doffen]

More 'good' news from Microsoft. Totally vile as per usual. They'd just throw more bucks to do some damage control though.

Yeah, Microsoft totally refers to people as "it" and wrong gender all the time.

 

[Night Angel]

I am going to take shit for this but that poster has like four posts on NeoGAF so we have no way to understand how they operate.

For real, you have found a reason to disregard any info contrary to the accuser's position... C'mon, son. I'm not saying that you are biased, but it sure seems that way.

 

[Delusibeta]

A few words about PureXbox: turns out they're a part of the Nlife group, and has NintendoLife and Push Square as sister sites. Amusingly, they're also part of Eurogamer's advertising network (which is to say, Eurogamer provides them with adverts, in a similar manner to Rock Paper Shotgun).

 

[davidbloop]

I have read through this thread with interest and it's difficult to work out what went down. What I will say however is that looking at Laura's Twitter profile she IMO looks like a guy in a wig. Please don't take that in a derogatory way but as a human being that is what I saw when I looked at the pics. Unfortunately Laura is potentially very sensitive to this fact and this is POSSIBLY the reason why this whole thing has blown up. If you look like a guy wearing a woman's wig you shouldn't expect every person you encounter to know that you are transgender and not in fancy dress.

I know some of you won't like my comments but let's tone down the political correctness here and be a little honest with ourselves. It was an Expo, people dress up, he was caught on the hop. It's not hard to see how this can happen.

Pretty much this. I think the guys only crime was not immediately recognising someone's gender. And ye Laura does look like a guy with a wig. I would've been confused as hell if I was the guy and probably would have said the same thing.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I think you are vastly underestimating this phenomenon .....

I know for fact that male doctors are recommended to never be alone in a room with a female patient during ambulatory, and always have a nurse around (at least hearing distance), in order to prevent false accusation of sexual harassment / rape. This is done not because of paranoia, but because false accusations happen.

Being a moderator on the internet, you should know that there is a lot of people desperate for attention....

Not to mention people willing to lie to extort money taking your reputation as hostage.

Frankly a skewed approach in favour of the accuser is just unacceptable. It guarantees abuses.

Being a victim of sexual assault knowing what it entails, how dehumanizing it is, how powerless you feel... I'm always going to be on the side of the accuser. No question.

I don't care if 90% of the allegations were false (and as we know the number is much closer to 1% of accusations) I will always feel more urgency to help them, believe them because of just how traumatic an experience it is.

But honestly that's a conversation for another time and it's pretty disgusting that it is being brought up in this case.

I think this is a case of being insensitive to a young woman. Bringing rape into pretty damn fucked up.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Right now we have one GAFfer above saying he never said "it" as a witness to the event. So, really, gonna have to have someone support Laura's position that was actually there too or this is going to set a really ugly precedent for this sort of shit and actually be another thing the trans community has to sigh about.

Why is a gaffer who has 2 posts in their history with an account that's been active for months a reliable source? Until we get any hard evidence I don't see how anything's changed from the start of the day, it will just be her word against the comedians.

 

[antonz]

Shouldn't that be, you know, the standard procedure until what actually happened gets clarified?

It should be but have seen how these kind of things have played out before. Especially on this kind of topic the claws come out and people involved are made to suffer regardless

 

[soultron]

With both sides quoted, I feel it's tough to take a side. There's no video and I wasn't there, so this makes it even harder to give an objective take on it.

I hope the journalist doesn't leave video games behind because of this and other incidents. I feel people attacking her over Twitter is terrible, but I can't say it's unexpected. People are terrible, especially on twitter. Perhaps if she had appealed in private, or went public later (or in a different medium such as blog post) she'd not receive so many drive-by blasts. I'm not saying for her to censor anything, but the medium she chose to speak up through is completely open, and that means lots of harsh, quick, retaliatory harassment like she's being exposed to now.

Hope both sides can come to an amicable end on this incident.

 

[watership]

More 'good' news from Microsoft. Totally vile as per usual. They'd just throw more bucks to do some damage control though.

I'm so glad you're here to cut through the facts and intricacies of this event involving two individuals, which should be discussed with seriously with compassion, and reduce it down to just another console warrior comment about Microsoft being a corporate monster.

 

[baphomet]

Much like it seemed from the beginning, it seems to be a complete and outright lie on her part for attention. He shouldnt apologize for anything. If anything she should apologize to him for dragging him through the mud.

 

[mollipen]

The mistake he claimed to have made is to also refer to others on stage as "this person" instead of just Laura. If that's truly the only "mistake" made, why would anyone have to apologize about anything? Someone there already corroborated that he didn't use the term "it". What more is there to her claims at this point?

I think it's perfectly possible that (a) the comedian said nothing that he thought was offensive, and (b) Laura heard something from him that she thought was offensive. Situations like this don't have to be a "he's right / she's right" kind of thing, because life tends to be more complicated than that sometimes.

For me, the proper way for the comedian to handle the situation would be this: "I didn't mean to say anything that was seriously offensive to you Laura, and I didn't think that I did, but I'm sorry that you felt that way, because that really wasn't my intent."

He can apologize and defuse the situation without calling into question her legitimacy to being offended, which is what should be happening. While there absolutely are some people out there who are looking to be offended, I'd like to believe the majority of people —so when a situation has gotten so far as to someone taking to publicly talking about how hurt they were by something, I think that should be treated as a big deal. Admitting that he could have said something unintentionally to hurt her wouldn't be "losing" the situation for him.

 

[JesseZao]

She has quite the hairdo so maybe he was just taken aback as he examined/admired it and said "this person" as a nod to the crazy rainbow on her head. Always hard to know the facts in these stories unless somebody recorded it.

 

[UNCMark]

The real question is if he indeed called her "it" was it because he knew she was transgendered or was it because of how she was dressed? One is inexcusable, the other isn't (just unfunny).

 

[CookTrain]

Much like it seemed from the beginning, it seems to be a complete and outright lie on her part for attention. He shouldnt apologize for anything. If anything she should apologize to him for dragging him through the mud.

See... now you've swung the pendulum too far the other way.

 

[Senor Kami]

Reading the update throws a lot of this into question.

"This person" doesn't seem particularly insulting, especially when you see her picture. I literally just came from a convention with cosplay that had a lot of guys in drag who looked as feminine as her (some much much much more) so I can see someone being hesitant to use he or she period as calling a woman a man is never going to go over well, some people guys that dress in drag still want to be referred to as men and would take offense to being called a she, and calling a guy in drag a woman and then proceeding like that's enough female participation is likely to cause a Twitter shit storm from women.

Everything else seems like confusion (asking for more women to participate being taken as I don't consider you a woman so you don't count as female participant) or potentially flat-out lies (either he's lying about calling her "it" and "thing" or she's lying about these thing being said).

It's all hearsay as, at least judging from the OP, no witnesses have stepped up to support either party's claims.

 

[Warmijwilf]

I think it's perfectly possible that (a) the comedian said nothing that he thought was offensive, and (b) Laura heard something from him that she thought was offensive. Situations like this don't have to be a "he's right / she's right" kind of thing, because life tends to be more complicated than that sometimes.

For me, the proper way for the comedian to handle the situation would be this: "I didn't mean to say anything that was seriously offensive to you Laura, and I didn't think that I did, but I'm sorry that you felt that way, because that really wasn't my intent."

He can apologize and defuse the situation without calling into question her legitimacy to being offended, which is what should be happening. While there absolutely are some people out there who are looking to be offended, I'd like to believe the majority of people —so when a situation has gotten so far as to someone taking to publicly talking about how hurt they were by something, I think that should be treated as a big deal. Admitting that he could have said something unintentionally to hurt her wouldn't be "losing" the situation for him.

Depends how he's going to follow this up. If it gets out of hand, he could well be within his rights to sue her for defamation, and being publically slandered for something like this is kind of a fair call to do so - if he apologised, that wouldn't work well in his favour.

 

[MesserWolf]

Being a victim of sexual assault knowing what it entails, how dehumanizing it is, how powerless you feel... I'm always going to be on the side of the accuser. No question.

I don't care if 90% of the allegations were false (and as we know the number is much closer to 1% of accusations) I will always feel more urgency to help them, believe them because of just how traumatic an experience it is.

But honestly that's a conversation for another time and it's pretty disgusting that it is being brought up in this case.

I think this is a case of being insensitive to a young woman. Bringing rape into pretty damn fucked up.

I am talking about false accusation and why a bias is .... a bias..... per definition you are away from being objective and unbiased.

you may want to re-read my post and the chain that comes before.

 

[DonMigs85]

To be fair at first glance it's hard to tell if this Laura identifies as a he or she, but of course "it" or "thing" is pretty insulting.

 

[Warmijwilf]

Reading the update throws a lot of this into question.

"This person" doesn't seem particularly insulting, especially when you see her picture. I literally just came from a convention with cosplay that had a lot of guys in drag who looked as feminine as her (some much much much more) so I can see someone being hesitant to use he or she period as calling a woman a man is never going to go over well, some people guys that dress in drag still want to be referred to as men and would take offense to being called a she, and calling a guy in drag a woman and then proceeding like that's enough female participation is likely to cause a Twitter shit storm from women.

Everything else seems like confusion (asking for more women to participate being taken as I don't consider you a woman so you don't count as female participant) or potentially flat-out lies (either he's lying about calling her "it" and "thing" or she's lying about these thing being said).

It's all hearsay as, at least judging from the OP, no witnesses have stepped up to support either party's claims.

Actually someone on GAF was (supposedly) there and saw the whole thing and he never called her anything offensive and definitely not "it" and "thing" at all, so it's really confusing

 

[Impeccable]

For real, you have found a reason to disregard any info contrary to the accuser's position... C'mon, son. I'm not saying that you are biased, but it sure seems that way.

Biased towards? lol

 

[BattleMonkey]

So no other witnesses, audio, or video of the event? Sounds fishy

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I wouldn't apologize if I knew I did nothing wrong. Screw diffusing the public issue. It is called having personal integrity.

 

[Night Angel]

Biased towards? lol

Biased against the comedian. How was that not obvious?

 

[Wiktor]

Seems like a small misunderstanding that has been blown way out of proportions and now just keeps snowballing. Ah..the magic of internet.

 

[mollipen]

Depends how he's going to follow this up. If it gets out of hand, he could well be within his rights to sue her for defamation, and being publically slandered for something like this is kind of a fair call to do so - if he apologised, that wouldn't work well in his favour.

I'd consider him pretty low if he sued her over this, and feel like that could tarnish his reputation more than her tweets might have.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Since there's no evidence or witnesses, could this story be bogus?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I am talking about false accusation and why a bias is .... a bias..... per definition you are away from being objective and unbiased.

you may want to re-read my post and the chain that comes before.

I'm not seeing why even continuing the chain of thought is relevant to the situation.

 

[Warmijwilf]

I'd consider him pretty low if he sued her over this, and feel like that could tarnish his reputation more than her tweets might have.

Let's say this is all lies for my sake of argument. He'll always have this stigma attached to him. He's received a lot of abuse on twitter because of this (Just as much abuse as she has had, and she's received a fair bit), over something she's (potentially) just made up and exaggerated for no real reason other than attention and sympathy. Why shouldn't he be entitled to sue for damages?

The stigma that'd be attached to him for this would arguably be worse than the stigma attached to him for suing her. It's hardly a minor issue.

 

[LukasHeinzel]

I once saw a transgender Person on a bus Station and it was heartbreaking to see her react to Basic stuff like just looking or reacting to other People. She was incredibly unsure and probably insecure of herself and i was glad, that nobody made a Scene, because it was obvious that the procedure was at the beginning.

Anyway, my Point is that that transgender humans are very easily to be disturbed in a Major way, and ist possible that he didnt meant the stuff she interpreted in her own way.

We dont know the Situation, so the only Thing we can do is Insult nobody in this case and also trying to not judge anyone here.

 

[Impeccable]

Biased against the comedian. How was that not obvious?

I'm not against the comedian at all. The ball is completely in his court at the moment and the earth shattering silence and refusal to meet with Laura immediately after the events is currently the most telling "side" to this story.

He didn't meet with the victim but was willing to talk to "PureXbox".

He hasn't gone out of his way to clarify the situation at all even with multiple reputable video gaming websites actively reaching his side of the story.

A NeoGAF poster with limited posting claims to be at the event and had witnessed the whole thing but said, "Technically, this journalist is a man, so saying that you're offended by being called one is pretty ridiculous. I wasn't even sure at the time, I just thought it was a dude with colourful hair." ... suddenly a source?

I'm not biased to anything it's just the best proof we have at the moment is in the actions of those involved.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Wow, appearantly Kotaku actually asked her if she would be okay making a story out of it (instead of just rambling about to her 300 followers) and she said no. Kotaku posted it anyway. She didn't even want all that fallout, check her tweets from time to time.

Can we just ban that site already? :/

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I'd consider him pretty low if he sued her over this, and feel like that could tarnish his reputation more than her tweets might have.

If it causes actual damage for him, he should stand up for his rights.

 

[Sakura]

I think it's perfectly possible that (a) the comedian said nothing that he thought was offensive, and (b) Laura heard something from him that she thought was offensive. Situations like this don't have to be a "he's right / she's right" kind of thing, because life tends to be more complicated than that sometimes.

For me, the proper way for the comedian to handle the situation would be this: "I didn't mean to say anything that was seriously offensive to you Laura, and I didn't think that I did, but I'm sorry that you felt that way, because that really wasn't my intent."

He can apologize and defuse the situation without calling into question her legitimacy to being offended, which is what should be happening. While there absolutely are some people out there who are looking to be offended, I'd like to believe the majority of people —so when a situation has gotten so far as to someone taking to publicly talking about how hurt they were by something, I think that should be treated as a big deal. Admitting that he could have said something unintentionally to hurt her wouldn't be "losing" the situation for him.

But if she is saying he referred to her as an "it", when he didn't, then I think he has the right to defend himself. If I was accused of doing something I didn't, then I would defend myself and not apologise. Defusing the situation or not, it's a matter of principle for a lot of people.