Digital Foundry: Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers

Those clock pumps and sacrificing GPU allocations tells me that the gap is actually bigger than we thought and MS is seeing it.

Man, 1.17 TF ! for $499
 
~~Hasan~~ said:
i am not sure what you are hinting at, but do you want me to show you my amazon pre orders brother ?
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lol you're welcome to, it's just that I've seen that phrase commonly posted from certain members right after posting something downplaying PS4's advantages. No offense meant if you're a real human being.
 
That's a pretty large chunk of gpu performance just to let people run apps on the side of gaming. Those apps better be worth it that you'd want to snap while playing a game.
 
SLY_ said:
This war on Microsoft is weird. Last time I looked, there's only three companies making consoles.

Is the X1 not a game console? Does it not play all the new games with updated graphics? Does it not attempt to provide new experiences to the user?

The fact that it's weaker than the PS4 means little to me because the companies clearly targeted different strategies, but at the end of the day they both play games, they both have exclusives, they both target gamers.

The vitriol is annoying to read over and over and over.
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Oh, that post history.

cxRH3Oe.gif


Lots of defending Ryse, DR3 and Forza and slamming Killzone with just a dash of thread whining and GAF stereotyping.

Being a cynic about games has GOT to suck.
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Probably.
 
IN&OUT said:
Those clock pumps and sacrificing GPU allocations tells me that the gap is actually bigger than we thought and MS is seeing it.

Man, 1.17 TF ! for $499
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They really over delivering value. But those spec articles lately doing more harm than good for xbone :(
 
Barzul said:
Ok I have a question, this is regarding the PS4 and if it has any reserve because of the PSeye. Now I know some will say since it isn't required, Sony does not have to allocate any special resources to it. But what if I do have it plugged in (I think there was an article that said the Eye will have some form of gesture and voice based controls), does this mean I'd get worse performance compared to those who don't have the Eye plugged in?
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I'm not sure but this is more likely to hit CPU performance rather than GPU. I also think that the 2 reserve cores of the PS4 already accounts for the PS Eye just the same as the 2 cores of Xbox One for Kinect.

Kinect uses more resources because it uses more technologically advanced features such as noise cancellation and heat detection. All of that is handled by the CPU and SHAPE processor.
 
phosphor112 said:
That's pretty damning.

I wonder if people will realize that the boolean "AND" being there really makes this statement stand out.
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More to add from my last post...

"The relationship between fill-rate and memory bandwidth is a good example of where balance is necessary. A high fill-rate won't help if the memory system can't sustain the bandwidth required to run at that fill-rate," said Goossen.
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mrklaw said:
how do they plan to do that without reducing the amount of resources available to snap mode apps? I guess most apps you'd be likely to snap would be data driven stuff - skype, IE, NFL fantasy league etc, which wouldn't need much GPU. Maybe they could make it so any games/graphics intensive apps aren't snappable next to a game?
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Perhaps It lets the app request resources from the game and the game could either be like "Naw son!" or like "Fine! Be like that... I'll just do nothing!" or like "The pool's big enough for everyone brah but just don't pee too much into the water; dig?"

At least that's how it played out in my head :(
 
Skeff said:
App's will be built with the idea they have a fixed amount of hardware available to them in Snap mode, Microsoft can only deal with the way that is managed not actually the amount used by the app, so they could increase the efficiency of the OS whilst managing it, but they can't cut into the amount the App is actually using, which will be the Vast majority of the 10%.

For example if the OS currently uses 2% to manage it and 8% for the app, they can only eat into the 2%, they can't touch the 8%.
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From what i understand Snap Apps will be written for Windows 8 Metro, XAML based UIs, they won't be designed for any one hardware target in partcular, they will simply run smoother with more GPU; they're not coded to the metal like games are. If a game runs in snap mode, from what i understand, it has to switch over to the Win 8 VM and to a XAML/Metro style coding design, so that it can handle some level of power fluctuations.
 
Chaostar said:
Wouldn't that lead to slowdown of the Os when playing a game, much like the XMB on PS3?[/quote ]

That depends .. They could alternate when in snap mode .. Half the frames . Draw the game in one frame then update the os in next . If the ui is running solid 60 fps it would knock it down to 30 bug that would not affect the speed at which the ui runs ... Just the speed at which it is drawn.

And wow at the Sony defense force .. You have nothing to defend here. So they can knock 10 percent of the gap. You still have 30%
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AdmiralPain said:
But it will be 10% more usable performance than is available now, yes? So again, how can this possibly be a bad thing? Are we operating under the assumption that the PS4 locks away 0% of its horsepower for UI and services? If so, I would like a link that verifies this please.
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Well, first of all, there's no way that games will ever get the full 10% back. But more importantly, you are shifting the goalposts. Remember, this was your original post:

AdmiralPain said:
Good news indeed. With the recent PS4 news and now this, it seems that the difference between the platforms is shrinking. Don't get me wrong, the PS4 is still clearly more powerful, but it seems it will be a close race.
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This is no way implies that "the difference between the platforms is shrinking", or that "it will be a close race".
 
IT Slave said:
We don't know that Sony hasn't sliced some GPU time for their OS. If PS4's OS is going to do anything but basic multitasking, it will probably have to.
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I think the game is paused and is stored in the RAM for easy switching when there is multitasking and OS is in the background when you are playing the game. Unlike Xbox One where both have to work at the same time, the PS4 isn't required to since it doesn't have snap.
 
I don't really understand if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

Does this mean the already underpowered (when compared to the PS4 or current mid to high range PC graphics cards) was having some of it's resources held back?

Also why are they holding back now? Can they not just release some of the GPU power, surely they could have worked out by now how much GPU processing is needed for the Kinect and apps and if there is some spare could they not move that over to the games console OS/Virtual Machine/Part? Fudge the future I want all the power now! ;-)

Anyone think the PS4 is doing something similar?
 
Hmm. So Forza 5 is running a 1080p 60 on just 1.18tflops. Dead Rising 3 large world, no loading time, tons of perpetual generating zombies all with 10% less power than thought. Ryse even at 900p is arguably the best looking next gen launch. Even Guerilla, (KZSF) didn't believe how good it looked,
"Yes everything we showed at E3 and Gamescom was on kits. From my point of view the development is coming along well and with the optimizations we have put in, I am pretty confident the final game will look better than what we showed at E3. I even had to open the cupboard to prove it to some guys from Guerilla who didn’t believe me
Nick Button-Brown, the general manager of games for Crytek
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http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Crytek-Ryse-Look-Better-Xbox-One-Than-It-Did-E3-59478.html
With 10% less power than thought.

I guess it all how you look at it.

With the massive power advantage PS4 has I would have expect every game to look like that Dark Sorcerer tech demo they showed. But just this past weekend little ole Knack was seen dropping frames.
 
jusufin said:
Really though, all this talk about power is coming from MS themselves, they keep bringing the issue into the limelight. If they would just stop bringing it up or responding to loaded questions then people could focus on the games. I cant understand why they cant just shift the topic to the games and keep mum on all these insignificant changes. The average adult gamer is too well informed to believe that these things will have a impact on the overall difference (and if they don't, reading these kind of threads will paint the picture for them). The only real problem with MS is their PR is not up to par. They have made blunder after blunder and have failed to justify the price to the hardcore gamer. I don't think they have a clue on how to market it after the 180's. I agree that both will end up having good games, and even if the x1 doesn't meet sales expectations, they can still turn it around like the PS3 (the console isn't even out yet),but if they want to succeed in the short term, they need a new strategy.
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Pretty much all of this. Their vision has been completely upended due to competition, thus the 180's. It's odd how unprepared they seem. They were damn confident during the reveal. Corporate disconnect and all that.
 
So just like the ps3 and 360 then. Console makers reserve X amount of RAM / CPU / GPU clocks for the OS stuff day 1 and after a while when they have a idea how they will evolve the system and optimise the OS they will give some of that back to game developers.

Always thought the arguments about OS reserved RAM etc was dumb since that stuff isnt set in stone like a lot of the other specs.
 
ryaxnb said:
From what i understand Snap Apps will be written for Windows 8 Metro, XAML based UIs, they won't be designed for any one hardware target in partcular, they will simply run smoother with more GPU; they're not coded to the metal like games are. If a game runs in snap mode, from what i understand, it has to switch over to the Win 8 VM and to a XAML/Metro style coding design, so that it can handle some level of power fluctuations.
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True regarding apps not for a fixed platform, although there will be targets set during development, for instance, the fantasy football app, they will be using animations that are expected to run smoothly with a certain amount of power, decreasing the allocation will decrease the framerate and fluidity of the app and create a sub par experience, if this is now a sub par experience, why not use it on your tablet where it does run smoothly?

Also games can't run in snap mode, only apps, the games will run exactly as before snapping, as the resources will remain unchanged for the games due to this allocation.

EDIT: they can change this 10% but unlike previous generations, part of this allocation is not by the OS team, it is used by third parties.
 
pixlexic said:
Chaostar said:
Wouldn't that lead to slowdown of the Os when playing a game, much like the XMB on PS3?[/quote ]

That depends .. They could alternate when in snap mode .. Half the frames . Draw the game in one frame then update the os in next . If the ui is running solid 60 fps it would knock it down to 30 bug that would not affect the speed at which the ui runs ... Just the speed at which it is drawn.

And wow at the Sony defense force .. You have nothing to defend here. So they can knock 10 percent of the gap. You still have 30%
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You said it yourself. There is nothing to defend here. So why even use that term?
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darkwing said:
wait a minute, if they are giving the 10% back, won't it mean Kinect won't run?

Kinectless console confirmed?!?
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The problem is whereas XAML/Metro (Snap) apps can really use however much they need, the GameOS, being coded "to the metal" has to assume a fixed GFLOPs, so MS allocated 90%. The goal here is to allow some fluctuation in GameOS's share based on how much Win8 Snap needs at the time, which will be difficult because it can't mess up any routines that rely exactly on the amount of power that is always available to GameOS (i.e. 90%). Therefore such "extra" share may have to be marked so that only games that are prepared to use it will use it, and such games may not use functions that rely on fixed amounts of hardware power when using it, or something like that.
The goal is not to give back all of the 10%, unless kinect is not being used ATM, Snap is not being used, and in that case all but the "overhead" for the VM (and maybe for some gesture that initiates Snap) could theoretically be given to the game (think like 8%).
 
funkystudent said:
So just like the ps3 and 360 then. Console makers reserve X amount of RAM / CPU / GPU clocks for the OS stuff day 1 and after a while when they have a idea how they will evolve the system and optimise the OS they will give some of that back to game developers.

Always thought the arguments about OS reserved RAM etc was dumb since that stuff isnt set in stone like a lot of the other specs.
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You're completely missing the point. The PS3 and 360 didn't reserve any of the GPU for the OS, nor will the PS4.
 
Chaostar said:
Wouldn't that lead to slowdown of the Os when playing a game, much like the XMB on PS3?
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I would imagine after seeing the ps4 power advantage they're looking to balance the console more towards games now and reduce the os footprint. It'll probably restrict it a bit, but they clearly feel they need all the extra power they can get.
 
Are people really saying this is a power increase?

Isn't this really the first time we have had solid confirmation that 10% of the GPU is reserved for the OS's? I think it is ....

Anyway, this does not add 10% power to the GPU lol. This is just 10% of the potential of the GPU that might be given back to the developers at some point. So, the 1.34TFLOP number does not change at all.

Actually it does, take 10% off the current GPU numbers since we now know the OS's do indeed reserve GPU power.
 
timlot said:
Hmm. So Forza 5 is running a 1080p 60 on just 1.18tflops. Dead Rising 3 large world, no loading time, tons of perpetual generating zombies all with 10% less power than thought. Ryse even at 900p is arguably the best looking next gen launch. Even Guerilla, (KZSF) didn't believe how good it looked,


http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Crytek-Ryse-Look-Better-Xbox-One-Than-It-Did-E3-59478.html
With 10% less power than thought.

I guess it all how you look at it.

With the massive power advantage PS4 has I would have expect every game to look like that Dark Sorcerer tech demo they showed. But just this past weekend little ole Knack was seen dropping frames.
Click to expand...
Is this a joke post? Is my sarcasm meter broken?
 
samendolaro said:
Kind of...Basically they are saying that instead of reserving the 10% GPU for the OS apps
they are going to move to a more Priority based usage. So as long as the GPU is not being used the oS can use it and if the game is using it then the OS will refresh less often.

They still may need to reserve something to make sure the OS is responsive.
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What if I'm using skype concurrently with a game? In this situation, couldn't skype or any other app I've snapped demand resources required by the game? Does this mean they are reducing the promised multitasking functionality?

This seems like a panicked concession to unhappy devs or just bullshit PR.
 
I can't wait for launch day for PS4.

The slightest drop frames / blurry texture or problems in any titles and NeoGAF will be a frenzy of photoshops and animated .GIFs.
 
Brera said:
Even the PS3 could be tweaked over time. OS RAM reduced over time for instance.
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Yes. It's actually more likely with the PS4. The PS4 was originally made to use 4GB of GDDR5. OS was supposed to fit there in the first place. But now with 8GB, I'm assuming they reserved 2GB of the RAM for overhead purposes. They don't wanna deal with another PS3 party chat fiasco or because of those last 15 min footage.
 
Pain said:
pixlexic said:
You said it yourself. There is nothing to defend here. So why even use that term?
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Just look at the posts.. It's pretty obvious that any indication of the ps4 losing any ground in the spec area brings an all out bash fest of defensive responses .

People just need to relax and play the games.

Ps4 won't ever get killer instinct and xbone won't ever get killzone. No matter what the specs are.

Ju
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pixlexic said:
And wow at the Sony defense force .. You have nothing to defend here. So they can knock 10 percent of the gap. You still have 30%
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They can't knock 10% away lol. They'll still need much of it for snap and all the other multi tasking features. In reality they'll probably only marginally cut down the reserve percentage.
 
pixlexic said:
Just look at the posts.. It's pretty obvious that any indication of the ps4 losing any ground in the spec area brings an all out bash fest of defensive responses .
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Pixl you saying things like that makes it show you didn't really read the thread beyond looking for a 'defense force'. The detail is in the thread, sir.
 
pixlexic said:
Just look at the posts.. It's pretty obvious that any indication of the ps4 losing any ground in the spec area brings an all out bash fest of defensive responses .

People just need to relax and play the games.

Ps4 won't ever get killer instinct and xbone won't ever get killzone. No matter what the specs are.

Ju
Click to expand...

There is no indication of losing ground for Ps4 in this article, only proof that as has been long suspected xbox lost more ground thanks to snap and kinect.
 
LiquidSolid said:
You're completely missing the point. The PS3 and 360 didn't reserve any of the GPU for the OS, nor will the PS4.
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Well we dont know what the PS4 OS is reserving really. Wouldnt be shocked if the resuve a little bit of everything just like the X1 only day 1. I mean the only thing we know for sure was the 3.5 gb of ram rumour was pulled out of Digital Foundrys ass.
 
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