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[Vizzeh]

can be a bottleneck for 1080/30, almost certainly will be at 1080/60...

Is the Esram not also a potential bottle neck since its bandwidth is needed if used as a frame buffer? on top of the ROPs, especially if they plan to use 16mb of it for Tiled resources from their Tier 1 DX11.1

I think I read that you can get 1080p from the other 16mb without AA

 

[XBOunity]

Saying that there's room in the future of optimisation to open more resources for devs to use in games is like saying 'water is wet.'

This would've been a complete non-story, had MS not officially confirm the 10% GPU allocation.

They could of just said nothing at all. I read the article 3 times. Looks like devs will have access to the 10 percent and it isnt locked for the os. We can try and muddy the waters, but its pretty obvious in time devs will have access to that 10 percent.

 

[killatopak]

So all the numbers they've been throwing around now for the GPU clock, were actually not taking into account the stuff reserved for Kinect?

Their 1.66TFlops were actually 1.494Tflops (for games) from the very start.
Quite disingenuous of MS.

Where did you get these numbers?

I think its 1.31 and 1.17 respectively.

 

[XBOunity]

Microsoft to break the laws of physics confirmed.

So are you inferring that Goossen is making this up?

 

[Doc Evils]

By Richard Leadbetter

*walks out thread*

 

[Nightengale]

MS has done anything but pimp the core draw of the system, that being Kinect.

Nice to be able to snap here and there but personally when i start gaming i don't want to be drawn out of the experience by apps while i am gaming. Its very annoying. To each their own i guess.

To pimp Kinect, MS needs 2 things:

1. Kinect games. ( none for launch )
2. UI showcase, complete with gesture and voice navigation. ( MS somehow still isn't showing this to the public for some strange reason )

 

[Vizzeh]

They could of just said nothing at all. I read the article 3 times. Looks like devs will have access to the 10 percent and it isnt locked for the os. We can try and muddy the waters, but its pretty obvious in time devs will have access to that 10 percent.

I didnt read it as all of that 10%, I read it as they are trying to free up some of that 10%

 

[le.phat]

And wow at the Sony defense force .. You have nothing to defend here. So they can knock 10 percent of the gap. You still have 30%

the performance gap is extrapolated from the spec difference between the 2 consoles, so this doesn't mean that Microsoft is closing the gap, the difference is still 40%. It means that the gap was initially bigger then we expected.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

This is very good news. I woke up today thinking 1.17 and now its 1.31. Dat snap.

what?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

By Richard Leadbetter

*walks out thread*

.

 

[Raytow]

what?

XBOunity...

 

[Chobel]

They could of just said nothing at all. I read the article 3 times. Looks like devs will have access to the 10 percent and it isnt locked for the os. We can try and muddy the waters, but its pretty obvious in time devs will have access to that 10 percent.

Maybe you need to read it 4th time. The devs won't have access to that 10%, MS will try to lower that 10% reservation but it won't go to 0%.

 

[Petalpusher]

That kind of number were expected. I think there was even a rumor back then about the 10% (anyone?) Now i only see one thing that could become problematic, if they actually try to move all the kinect and OS stuff in compute, with only 2 ACEs and not much command queues, im not sure thrid party would use compute in their games the same or at all... the gpu would get back some precious raw rendering cycles, but the equivalent of 1 CU (or so) would not vanish into thin air, it would just be processed in a different way, diminishing gpgpu capabilities.

 

[Skeff]

Is the Esram not also a potential bottle neck since its bandwidth is needed if used as a frame buffer? on top of the ROPs, especially if they plan to use 16mb of it for Tiled resources from their Tier 1 DX11.1

I think I read that you can get 1080p from the other 16mb without AA

The framebuffer for a 1080p game with 32bits per pixel and no AA is around 24mb, using back/depth/front buffers, they could achieve 12mb at 16bits per pixel and no AA (ergh...)

But with deferred rendering (As I've been informed from another thread) a G-Buffeer is used, and in the case of games such as BF3 I believe that was 153MB including 4x AA so a minumum of 37MB or something with no AA, Killzone was using 50mb+with no AA.

32mb esram and 16 ROP's do not a 1080/60 console have.

 

[LukasTaves]

how do they plan to do that without reducing the amount of resources available to snap mode apps? I guess most apps you'd be likely to snap would be data driven stuff - skype, IE, NFL fantasy league etc, which wouldn't need much GPU. Maybe they could make it so any games/graphics intensive apps aren't snappable next to a game?

They talk about that in the article. Right now there's a clear separation, but the plan in the future is to allow the schedulers on the GPU prioritize games tasks over the system ones... They would probably still have some sort of limitation, otherwise the game could completely stall the OS, but 10% of the gpu does seem like an overly conservative amount.

 

[panda-zebra]

They're planning on reducing the 10% reserved but it's not guaranteed that they will. Especially if all the apps become lucrative for them they will not gimp those capabilities. From the beginning games were not the priority for this console.

They're planning so much for post-launch that it seems taking maybe another 6 months or a year to get it right first time would have been better option.

 

[Bishop89]

He's still at the denial stage. It'll pass.

it really wont
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...lock-10-percent-more-power-for-the-xbo?page=0

 

[KidBeta]

So are you inferring that Goossen is making this up?

It will be physically impossible to give game devs 100% of the GPU time whilst still having kinect and snap running at the same time as the game.

 

[krypt0nian]

That depends .. They could alternate when in snap mode .. Half the frames . Draw the game in one frame then update the os in next . If the ui is running solid 60 fps it would knock it down to 30 bug that would not affect the speed at which the ui runs ... Just the speed at which it is drawn.

And wow at the Sony defense force .. You have nothing to defend here. So they can knock 10 percent of the gap. You still have 30%

I'd love for you to keep that SDF whining thing up in future posts. It suits you.

 

[SoldierGryphon]

They really don't need to get obsessed with numbers or more power because of some internet forum trolls posting Antonio Banderas gifs.

At this point, I'd rather the snap function and OS work faster.

 

[panda-zebra]

They could of just said nothing at all. I read the article 3 times. Looks like devs will have access to the 10 percent and it isnt locked for the os. We can try and muddy the waters, but its pretty obvious in time devs will have access to that 10 percent.

Maybe read it a fourth time?

EDIT: beaten by Chobel

 

[XBOunity]

QUOTE=KidBeta;84334893]But they can't have the full amount unless they completely remove kinect and snap. You can't have your cake and eat it.[/QUOTE]

According to the article you can as I read it. Says cake and eat it too
Im inclined to believe goossen over anyone in this thread. Sorry

 

[KidBeta]

But they can't have the full amount unless they completely remove kinect and snap. You can't have your cake and eat it.

According to the article you can as I read it. Says cake and eat it too
Im inclined to believe goossen over anyone in this thread. Sorry

Well then Microsoft should patent it because they just got more then 100% performance out of a GPU

 

[ICPEE]

What the heck is Penello doing? His UI demo-tour thing he promised is has been overdue for like a month already.

They have no games of which Kinect can be used as a showcase platform for launch. That means all they have left are the UI features like waggle and voice, but without actually showing a real-life usage/tour of said features in its final form, it's practically hot air.

And I'm still wondering when the heck is MS going to announce an app store or open up XB1 to 3rd-party non-gaming devs.

They are in a tough situation.

- If they drop Kinect, they harm development of titles catered to the device and their core message changes.

- They in turn also alienate existing users who now sit with a camera that won't get used beyond anything but the menu interface and video and voice chat.

How do you narrow down your message to the consumer when you have TV, Games, Apps, Kinect and everything else in between while staying competitive in price when your chief competition can offer similar services at a cheaper price.

Kinect can give you something different BUT at a price. Its going to cost MS at launch and it may be something they can never recover from.

 

[Nafai1123]

Question to XB1 buyers. Would you rather have snap functionality while gaming or that extra 10%?

 

[Nightengale]

They're planning so much for post-launch that it seems taking maybe another 6 months or a year to get it right first time would have been better option.

It makes one wonder how much of the Xbox product roadmap has been completely defaced by the developments of the past several months.

The fact that they're demo-ing their Gaikai competitor at their internal event makes me feel like they're probably accelerating their streaming service plans earlier than the original 2016/17 date.

And part of me is skeptical that their Fortaleza glasses will even materialise the way it was designed. AR-technology is still pretty sketchy and rough in its current form, even more than than VR.

 

[XBOunity]

It will be physically impossible to give game devs 100% of the GPU time whilst still having kinect and snap running at the same time as the game.

so goossen making it up

 

[frizby]

it really wont
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...lock-10-percent-more-power-for-the-xbo?page=0

dat google.

 

[Skeff]

But they can't have the full amount unless they completely remove kinect and snap. You can't have your cake and eat it.

According to the article you can as I read it. Says cake and eat it too
Im inclined to believe goossen over anyone in this thread. Sorry

So If i'm gaming and the game is using 100% of the GPU, and I open up Skype, how is the skype picture going to be displayed?

Will It take away game resources? will it make more GPU resources out of thin air and use 105% of the GPU?

How can you visibly show 2 applications when one application is using 100% of the GPU, It's a physical impossibility.

This is not opinion vs. opinion, It's PR vs. Physics.

 

[le.phat]

it really wont
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...lock-10-percent-more-power-for-the-xbo?page=0

dat epicness lol

 

[Chobel]

so goossen making it up

Where did he say you can use all 100% GPU for games?

 

[KidBeta]

so goossen making it up

He is exaggerating of course they will be able to give some time back eventually (it happens on all consoles) but they will never be able to give it all back.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Well, streamlining the OS to be less performance intensive is a always a good thing, Sony was freeing up RAM from the OS over the life of the PS3 so I can imagine the improvements over time for next gen.

That being said, the thread title is a bit of a misnomer and has sort of backfired on the article since it pinpointed a previous rumor of less performance to the GPU for games, making it more negative than it actually appeared.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

it really wont
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...lock-10-percent-more-power-for-the-xbo?page=0

lol detectiveGAF catches another one red-handed.

 

[krypt0nian]

dat epicness lol

Wow he's getting pounded. And the NeoGAF taunts...

XBOunity 'll last long here.

 

[Nightengale]

So are you inferring that Goossen is making this up?

Even the greatest technical wizardry can make it around 9% at most. There's no way that MS can give back all to the game developers unless they completely rewrite the OS hypervisor design.

 

[REV 09]

Good news I guess, but it still won't be as powerful as ps4 or pc. Just focus on getting a good lineup MS and you'll be fine.

 

[Red Mage]

i am not sure what you are hinting at, but do you want me to show you my amazon pre orders brother ?

Actual, honest-to-goodness, shills (here and elsewhere) have a tendency to say certain things. Among them is that they have both systems pre-ordered. I don't think he's accusing you of being a shill, just that such a comment isn't going to help your argument.

 

[XBOunity]

He is exaggerating of course they will be able to give some time back eventually (it happens on all consoles) but they will never be able to give it all back.

So now he is exaggerating? Im glad always thought this 10 percent was locked. Good news nontheless for future XBO owners

 

[krypt0nian]

So now he is exaggerating? Im glad always thought this 10 percent was locked. Good news nontheless for future XBO owners

You'd think your thread at EuroG would have taught you something.

 

[ICPEE]

To pimp Kinect, MS needs 2 things:

1. Kinect games. ( none for launch )
2. UI showcase, complete with gesture and voice navigation. ( MS somehow still isn't showing this to the public for some strange reason )

They needed AAA Kinect games yesterday. Had they had any that would appeal to core gamers they would not be in the position they are now in regards to pre-order numbers and general view of their system by the core.

Starting to get the feeling that MS got caught out by Sony because to have no compelling software for your biggest trump card at launch speaks volumes of your level of preperations prior to launch.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

it really wont
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...lock-10-percent-more-power-for-the-xbo?page=0

This is disgraceful and there are more here as well.

 

[KidBeta]

So now he is exaggerating? Im glad always thought this 10 percent was locked. Good news nontheless for future XBO owners

Yes because it is not possible to do what you are suggesting, you are either misunderstanding what he is saying or misunderstanding how it works.

 

[Ricerocket]

it really wont
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...lock-10-percent-more-power-for-the-xbo?page=0

"snap mode without reservation??? thank you Microsoft."
"edit again, 1.31 now still upset about 14:4 and the unbalance of the ps4.... neogaf is crying right now."
"cows almost as bad as sonygaf right now. 8 cows to the defense ..... dat snap mode..."
"ahahahaha just like neogaf. yep i do, but rendering becomes as useless as your posts after 14. it still hurts i know, just look at the cows. if you want to discuss that please open the other thread. i made my case and it looks like i was right... but but 18 cu's for unlimited taps graphical power no more. if only ps4 dedicated processor could offload cpu functions like dat shape. guess you will be using a cu in gpgpu in the 14:4 model. dem tflops dwindling for dat unbalanced ps4. the games prove it... Ryse is king. now stay on topic please"

I see a trend over there.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

it really wont
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...lock-10-percent-more-power-for-the-xbo?page=0

LOL! That thread backfire is glorious. Holy hell.

"snap mode without reservation??? thank you Microsoft."
"edit again, 1.31 now still upset about 14:4 and the unbalance of the ps4.... neogaf is crying right now."
"cows almost as bad as sonygaf right now. 8 cows to the defense ..... dat snap mode..."
"ahahahaha just like neogaf. yep i do, but rendering becomes as useless as your posts after 14. it still hurts i know, just look at the cows. if you want to discuss that please open the other thread. i made my case and it looks like i was right... but but 18 cu's for unlimited taps graphical power no more. if only ps4 dedicated processor could offload cpu functions like dat shape. guess you will be using a cu in gpgpu in the 14:4 model. dem tflops dwindling for dat unbalanced ps4. the games prove it... Ryse is king. now stay on topic please"

I see a trend over there.

Notice how most of those comments are from XBOunity? The guy who started the thread. He's just a bitter fanboy in denial. Leave him be.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Says WHO? KZ is by FAR the best looking game at launch we've seen on a technical level. Whether or not it is your cup of tea is an entirely different matter. On, and Infamous (launch window) is even better than that.

Says who? Troll post deserves a troll response. If you would have said the Dark Sorcerer or The Order, i would have agreed. We know ps4 is much more powerful than xbox one. The games don't show it yet despite time to triangle, more memory available. But when you say by far....

Low poly?

Low lod?

Cardboard trees?

Different model for cutscenes vs gameplay.

Npcs are low res/polygon. Ok this is pre-alpha, but why didn't the e3 footage look better?

Ryse has some flaws i agree. But shouldn't most high-end ps4 games look better? Honest question.

 

[Dragon]

Says who? Troll post deserves a troll response. If you would have said the Dark Sorcerer or The Order, i would have agreed. We know ps4 is much more powerful than xbox one. The games don't show it yet despite time to triangle, more memory available. But when you say by far....

Different model for cutscenes vs gameplay.

Npcs are low res/polygon. Ok this is pre-alpha, but why didn't the e3 footage look better?

Ryse has some flaws i agree. But shouldn't every ps4 game look better? Honest question.

Infamous is an open world, Ryse is on rails. Ryse is at 900p as well.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Wow he's getting pounded. And the NeoGAF taunts...

XBOunity 'll last long here.

Yeah lol. He's getting his ass handed to him on there

 

[LCfiner]

They are in a tough situation.

- If they drop Kinect, they harm development of titles catered to the device and their core message changes.

- They in turn also alienate existing users who now sit with a camera that won't get used beyond anything but the menu interface and video and voice chat.

How do you narrow down your message to the consumer when you have TV, Games, Apps, Kinect and everything else in between while staying competitive in price when your chief competition can offer similar services at a cheaper price.

Kinect can give you something different BUT at a price. Its going to cost MS at launch and it may be something they can never recover from.

Good post. This is MS's gamble with Kinect. This is their risk. If their message of built in Kinect working with all games is a dud in the market, then they may be forced to change their message.

If sales end up being awful (and we don't know if they will), they may just release a box with no Kinect and deal with some of the first year of launch titles not being compatible with these later kinect-less boxes. Might be a small price to pay if they need to get marketshare and better dev support.

As for the article in the OP, when I was reading it , I was thinking to myself "wait, is this 10% above 1.31 TF or is it part of the 1.31 TF?" it wasn't clear and I can see why a lot of people are reading that article and coming away with something they want to be more positive. Tricky, tricky MS PR.

What we have now is a launch XBone that has 1.18 TF for games and MS engineers are going to try to add as much as they can from a 10% kinect/OS reserve for future development.

 

[panda-zebra]

This is not opinion vs. opinion, It's PR vs. Physics.