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[Riki]

When I was still registered Republican (it's pretty much the default party of my state), my idea was more "tax control" than "tax cut". You know, actual fiscal conservatism, not fiscal brinksmanship. You know, find a need. Can we cover it with existing taxes? Okay, don't raise taxes. Do we need more money for it? Construct a new tax that will help pay for it and spread out the cost effectively as possible.

The eternal "tax cuts forever, and more cuts on top of the ones we already have" sound good in campaigns but are irresponsible and costly. Around here, people insisted on blocking and cutting taxes. Much like the GOP. The city came back and said okay.. but now we have to shut down all the swimming pools a month early, because we don't have the money. Much like we just closed our parks. And now the GOP is whining the parks are closed... much like people bitched the pools were now closed. They want tax cuts but keep all the 'nice' stuff at the same time, and it's just impossible to do that. If you want nice, you have to pay for nice.

The Tea Party wants nice without having to pay for it. At either the funding or the tax paying level.

And this has always been the fundamental flaw with Republicans. "We want less government!" Ok, so you don't want public roads or schools or benefits?
"We want less taxes!" Ok, so you don't want us to pay for anything you use, more or less.

I'll never understand the mindset that goes behind this. This is third grade math here. If you're using more than you're getting, you're at a negative.

 

[Xdrive05]

And this has always been the fundamental flaw with Republicans. "We want less government!" Ok, so you don't want public roads or schools or benefits?
"We want less taxes!" Ok, so you don't want us to pay for anything you use, more or less.

I'll never understand the mindset that goes behind this. This is third grade math here. If you're using more than you're getting, you're at a negative.

But the invisible hand will draw a vertical line through that negative and turn it into a positive. Less is more. Infinite revenue.

 

[Pyrokai]

If you just think of it in credit card terms, it makes you realize how reckless they're being. They're trying to quit paying their credit card while not using it anymore, instead of just not using it anymore and paying it off. It's so ELEMENTARY it fucking hurts my head.

 

[Amzin]

I feel bad for the NPR interviewers that are trying to give republicans reps a voice only to have the congressperson say blatantly false shit and ignore the interview questions when confronted with facts.

I mean, it's nice to try and be fair, but sometimes one side of the story is just wrong.

 

[entremet]

Ted Cruz proves that Texas produces some vile politicians, man. Like Delay and Bush II, before him.

 

[FyreWulff]

And this has always been the fundamental flaw with Republicans. "We want less government!" Ok, so you don't want public roads or schools or benefits?
"We want less taxes!" Ok, so you don't want us to pay for anything you use, more or less.

I'll never understand the mindset that goes behind this. This is third grade math here. If you're using more than you're getting, you're at a negative.

The sad thing is the GOP is usually responsible for expanding government, not Democrats. They cut regulation but then more than make up for it with other, different forms of regulation, controls, and layers of bureaucracy.

Democrats usually just pass a tax and that's it at the local level. Service funded. A Republican will cut the tax, but then provide the service through LowBidCorp who has to file paperwork and wait 8 business weeks to get a rebate for providing the service.

Somehow they've convinced people that paying a bit more for government to be able to provide services is expansion of the government.

 

[zero_suit]

Ted Cruz proves that Texas produces some vile politicians, man. Like Delay and Bush II, before him.

You forgot Rick Perry.

 

[Octavion Rex]

Hopefully under a chapter titled "The fall of the GOP and the Tea Party: How the United States Became a True Free Country."

Your post confuses me. Unless you think Command and control government makes a free society.
Wouldn't more government mean more regulation, laws, and policies that restrict your rights and freedoms? Yes, government has its place, passing laws, policies and regulation that is for the better. But that's not the point I am trying to make.

 

[The Technomancer]

Your post confuses me. Unless you think Command and control government makes a free society.
Wouldn't more government mean more regulation, laws, and policies that restrict your rights and freedoms? Yes, government has its place, passing laws, policies and regulation that is for the better. But that's not the point I am trying to make.

Freedom does not operate on a linear scale. Sometimes one can trade one type of freedom for another. The classic example here is the police and the general rule of law: we trade the right to do whatever we want in exchange for the safety and thus the freedom to act with a presumption of safety.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Repubs are seriously imploding. So many of the media outlets are outright crucifying these fucks more than usual, and you have the common sense crowd just bewildered at how stupid they all are. It will take more at this point for them to turn around in peoples eyes than to implode and die. Fuckers.

music to my ears

 

[h1nch]

When I was still registered Republican (it's pretty much the default party of my state), my idea was more "tax control" than "tax cut". You know, actual fiscal conservatism, not fiscal brinksmanship. You know, find a need. Can we cover it with existing taxes? Okay, don't raise taxes. Do we need more money for it? Construct a new tax that will help pay for it and spread out the cost effectively as possible.

The eternal "tax cuts forever, and more cuts on top of the ones we already have" sound good in campaigns but are irresponsible and costly. Around here, people insisted on blocking and cutting taxes. Much like the GOP. The city came back and said okay.. but now we have to shut down all the swimming pools a month early, because we don't have the money. Much like we just closed our parks. And now the GOP is whining the parks are closed... much like people bitched the pools were now closed. They want tax cuts but keep all the 'nice' stuff at the same time, and it's just impossible to do that. If you want nice, you have to pay for nice.

The Tea Party wants nice without having to pay for it. At either the funding or the tax paying level.

The folks in control of the tea party already have their own olympic size swimming pools and acres of land to play around in. Why should they have to pay for everyone else's?!!?

 

[Gotchaye]

Your post confuses me. Unless you think Command and control government makes a free society.
Wouldn't more government mean more regulation, laws, and policies that restrict your rights and freedoms? Yes, government has its place, passing laws, policies and regulation that is for the better. But that's not the point I am trying to make.

I don't think this should be confusing. Lots of people think that "regulations, laws, and policies" can produce more freedom, on net. Really it's only libertarians who subscribe to this weird notion of freedom as purely freedom-from-government, and the ones that don't live under rocks are surely aware that there are such things as non-libertarians who think about liberty and freedom differently. I don't think it should be controversial to say that having financial security gives people significantly more freedom to live as they choose, and it's highly plausible that redistribution is freedom-enhancing if the marginal dollar adds more freedom for poor people than rich people. If one doesn't count the freedom to exploit others as a real freedom, then it's almost certainly a net gain.

Also, some people's exercise of rights can sometimes (always, if we define "rights" broadly enough) interfere with other people's exercise of other rights. Some people think that restricting the right to bear arms is worth it because it makes it easier for people to exercise a right to not live in fear or a right to not get shot, for example.

 

[Blader]

Ted Cruz has been noticeably quiet since Sunday. I bet he knows that there are people who want his head and ass on a silver platter.

Even the GOP wised up pretty quickly to the fact that Cruz has no plan.

 

[Nerokis]

Personally, I think that Obama's messaging so aggressively about not being willing to use the 14th amendment that he might be covering up a willingness to use it. This might be wishful thinking, but frankly, I think you'd have to be an idiot to trust the House to handle this at this point.

I think that might be true. Unfortunately, though, Obama invoking the 14th amendment isn't guaranteed to help. It'd be a very controversial move even among legal scholars, and who's going to buy potentially illegal bonds? And even then, having to resort to that would be a significant blow to faith in the political system. It may work, but...not necessarily. I don't think we'll be reaching that point, though. If Republicans don't give in, then Boehner is going to be forced to allow Democrats to carry the day.

Incidentally, if you're curious, here's a GOP representative explaining why they can't pass a clean CR now.

http://m.soundcloud.com/toddzwillich-1/meadows1-shutdown-wav

Infuriating. So Republicans are throwing down these piecemeal bills addressing some of the more politically inconvenient consequences of the shutdown, and Democrats are refusing to negotiate at all. And so now, in response, the message is that this is no longer about health care - because how could it be, I mean, 3/4 of the public thinks it'd be dumb to shutdown the government over that! - it's now about veterans, reservists, etc. and Democratic rigidity getting in the way of helping them out.

The number of ways that's ridiculously hypocritical, callous, and plainly moronic... :\

If his career isn't over after this, I don't know what to say. How can anyone want this piece of shit to even run a dog grooming service.

Honestly, don't blame John Boehner. He's one of the better ones. No speaker could habitually buck his own party without eventually losing all effectiveness, though. Right now he's standing firmly behind his members, but I have to think that's in part so that when he abandons them, he doesn't completely lose their trust - after all, he tried his best to win them concessions, right?

 

[methane47]

I just 5minutes ago realized that The currency of my country is Pegged to the US Dollar.

So if you guys Default ... How soon do i need to buy Euros?

 

[Piecake]

I just 5minutes ago realized that The currency of my country is Pegged to the US Dollar.

So if you guys Default ... How soon do i need to buy Euros?

Personally, I'd buy pounds over Euros.

 

[gcubed]

I just 5minutes ago realized that The currency of my country is Pegged to the US Dollar.

So if you guys Default ... How soon do i need to buy Euros?

Yea, euros not the best either.

 

[Zoramon089]

Can someone explain what Obama invoking the 14th Amendment would do? I'm pretty sure I know what the amendment is but I don't know how it relates to what's going on now...

 

[B-Dubs]

Can someone explain what Obama invoking the 14th Amendment would do? I'm pretty sure I know what the amendment is but I don't know how it relates to what's going on now...

Basically it would get rid of the whole debt ceiling thing all together, which we should be doing anyway.

 

[Legendary_Red]

I suppose if the Republicans hold strong Obama will have no choice but to fold. He is head of state first, party leader second. As president he simply can not afford to head into the disaster this country will face should the shutdown continue for an extended period of time.

 

[watershed]

I suppose if the Republicans hold strong Obama will have no choice but to fold. He is head of state first, party leader second. As president he simply can not afford to head into the disaster this country will face should the shutdown continue for an extended period of time.

He can't fold if folding means delaying or defunding the ACA. Not just for himself but for the sake of precedent. This is blackmail. If he folds democracy fails.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Can someone explain what Obama invoking the 14th Amendment would do? I'm pretty sure I know what the amendment is but I don't know how it relates to what's going on now...

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void

Section 4 confirmed the legitimacy of all U.S. public debt appropriated by the Congress. It also confirmed that neither the United States nor any state would pay for the loss of slaves or debts that had been incurred by the Confederacy. For example, during the Civil War several British and French banks had lent large sums of money to the Confederacy to support its war against the Union.[152] In Perry v. United States (1935), the Supreme Court ruled that under Section 4 voiding a United States bond "went beyond the congressional power."[153]

The debt-ceiling crisis in 2011 raised the question of what powers Section 4 gives to the President, an issue that remains unsettled.[154] Some, such as legal scholar Garrett Epps, fiscal expert Bruce Bartlett and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, have argued that a debt ceiling may be unconstitutional and therefore void as long as it interferes with the duty of the government to pay interest on outstanding bonds and to make payments owed to pensioners (that is, Social Security recipients).[155][156] Legal analyst Jeffrey Rosen has argued that Section 4 gives the President unilateral authority to raise or ignore the national debt ceiling, and that if challenged the Supreme Court would likely rule in favor of expanded executive power or dismiss the case altogether for lack of standing.[157] Erwin Chemerinsky, professor and dean at University of California, Irvine School of Law, has argued that not even in a "dire financial emergency" could the President raise the debt ceiling as "there is no reasonable way to interpret the Constitution that [allows him to do so]".[158]

From wikipedia.

 

[Vestal]

I suppose if the Republicans hold strong Obama will have no choice but to fold. He is head of state first, party leader second. As president he simply can not afford to head into the disaster this country will face should the shutdown continue for an extended period of time.

The disaster would be a President bending his knees to the Minority party, it would set a horrible precedent that would shake the very foundation of government. He has taken a stand. He simply cannot fold, doing so would not only destroy ACA, his presidency, and the party but it would permanently damage the ability of ANY PARTY to govern.

 

[DrSlek]

Yea, euros not the best either.

Yuan?

 

[Nerokis]

I suppose if the Republicans hold strong Obama will have no choice but to fold. He is head of state first, party leader second. As president he simply can not afford to head into the disaster this country will face should the shutdown continue for an extended period of time.

You've just made a very good case for why Obama can't fold.

 

[Ryu751]

I suppose if the Republicans hold strong Obama will have no choice but to fold. He is head of state first, party leader second. As president he simply can not afford to head into the disaster this country will face should the shutdown continue for an extended period of time.

He ain't folding. If he let congress get its way, then the flood gates would open for further blackmail. If this country goes to hell it will not be looked at as his fault. Congress let us default not Obama.

 

[kidko]

Sorry if old

Sens. Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul talk about messaging strategy and holding out on the government shutdown to "win." CNN

 

[GaimeGuy]

Sorry if old

Sens. Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul talk about messaging strategy and holding out on the government shutdown to "win." CNN

It's not a fucking game. You don't "win". You don't "lose."


These men are traitors to their country.

 

[BLACKLAC]

He ain't folding. If he let Republicans get its way, then the flood gates would open for further blackmail. If this country goes to hell it will not be looked at as his fault. Republicans let us default not Obama.

Fixed

Sorry if old

Sens. Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul talk about messaging strategy and holding out on the government shutdown to "win." CNN

Good to see CNN giving that pathetic display air time.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sorry if old

Sens. Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul talk about messaging strategy and holding out on the government shutdown to "win." CNN

Huh. Wonder if any news outlets will actually run this.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

It's not a fucking game. You don't "win". You don't "lose."


These men are traitors to their country.

Can we fucking lock them up yet?

We need to turn around the "if you disagree with us you're unpatriotic' schtick they held through the bush years and fuck them up with it. Call these fuckers out on their terroristic attitudes and actions. Label them traitors to the country like any "Liberal" has been.

 

[EatinOlives]

Goddamn Republicans outright ignoring how their own government is supposed to work.

This isn't a minority rule government. The very fact that they're in this position proves they're exploiting a loophole.

There needs to be a new amendment. A loud, insatiable, incorrigible minority should not be able to fucking shut down the government over petulant whining about a law that elected a president twice, has been formally signed into law itself, and has been deemed constitutional by the goddamned Supreme Court.

 

[Suikoguy]

Goddamn Republicans outright ignoring how their own government is supposed to work.

This isn't a minority rule government. The very fact that they're in this position proves they're exploiting a loophole.

There needs to be a new amendment. A loud, insatiable, incorrigible minority should not be able to fucking shut down the government over petulant whining about a law that elected a president twice, has been formally signed into law itself, and has been deemed constitutional by the goddamned Supreme Court.

1.) Get rid of the debt ceiling, as it's an arbitrary pointless process/procedure/existence.

2.) If no new budget is passed, the old one stays in effect until the new one is passed.

It's that simple really.

 

[FyreWulff]

Goddamn Republicans outright ignoring how their own government is supposed to work.

This isn't a minority rule government. The very fact that they're in this position proves they're exploiting a loophole.

There needs to be a new amendment. A loud, insatiable, incorrigible minority should not be able to fucking shut down the government over petulant whining about a law that elected a president twice, has been formally signed into law itself, and has been deemed constitutional by the goddamned Supreme Court.

Reid needs to actually nerf the filibuster next time.

The currently strict constructionist GOP should be fine with that, because the filibuster doesn't exist anywhere in the Constitution.

 

[outlawedprod]

"We're not going to be disrespected," Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-Ind.) told The Washington Examiner. "We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."

 

[christiankid7]

Lose Lose situation if there ever was one

On the one hand you have a lot of people without jobs because theirs was "non-essential" (CDC non-essential) Whaaaaa?

On the other, you have the ACA, which forces you to buy healthcare or be taxed for it, which is stupid and unnecessary. I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Of course the first one is worse, no one should be without a job.

Spoiler

But I despise Obamacare

 

[InsaneZero]

Lose Lose situation if there ever was one

On the one hand you have a lot of people without jobs because theirs was "non-essential" (CDC non-essential) Whaaaaa?

On the other, you have the ACA, which forces you to buy healthcare or be taxed for it, which is stupid and unnecessary. I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Of course the first one is worse, no one should be without a job.

Spoiler

But I despise Obamacare

The only loser in this situation is the side that demands that a law, one that went through the legislative process and upheld by the Supreme Court, be killed or the entire government will be shut down.

 

[VariantX]

Sorry if old

Sens. Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul talk about messaging strategy and holding out on the government shutdown to "win." CNN

Yeah it's great that people are going without pay and our government is not functioning at all. But as long as you win whatever it is you're trying to win, it's a-ok to act like a bunch of d-bags screw everyone over in the process.

 

[watershed]

Lose Lose situation if there ever was one

On the one hand you have a lot of people without jobs because theirs was "non-essential" (CDC non-essential) Whaaaaa?

On the other, you have the ACA, which forces you to buy healthcare or be taxed for it, which is stupid and unnecessary. I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Of course the first one is worse, no one should be without a job.

Spoiler

But I despise Obamacare

There are subsidies available if you are poor, and the healthcare provided isn't from "the government". It's from the same private healthcare providers that have always been there. The plans are just new and available to everyone. You aren't buying healthcare from the government.

 

[RDreamer]

Lose Lose situation if there ever was one

On the one hand you have a lot of people without jobs because theirs was "non-essential" (CDC non-essential) Whaaaaa?

On the other, you have the ACA, which forces you to buy healthcare or be taxed for it, which is stupid and unnecessary. I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Of course the first one is worse, no one should be without a job.

Spoiler

But I despise Obamacare

Cool. Someone that has no fucking clue what he's talking about.

Jesus... You'd think people who go out into public to proclaim to despise something would actually know what it is they despise. You're not buying healthcare from the government... If you can't afford it, there are subsidies to help. And no one gives a shit if you're irresponsible and don't want healthcare. You're alive. You need healthcare. End of story.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Lose Lose situation if there ever was one

On the one hand you have a lot of people without jobs because theirs was "non-essential" (CDC non-essential) Whaaaaa?

On the other, you have the ACA, which forces you to buy healthcare or be taxed for it, which is stupid and unnecessary. I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Of course the first one is worse, no one should be without a job.

Spoiler

But I despise Obamacare

umm, the insurance you're buying is from the insurance company. The gov is only there to make sure each plan has a basic necessary thing in it. The gov isn't running your health insurance.

also, honest question, since you don't want healthcare, if you were to get into an auto accident and need surgery, how do you plan to pay for a $100,000 procedure? Get it, and then bail on the bill?

 

[The Technomancer]

Lose Lose situation if there ever was one

On the one hand you have a lot of people without jobs because theirs was "non-essential" (CDC non-essential) Whaaaaa?

On the other, you have the ACA, which forces you to buy healthcare or be taxed for it, which is stupid and unnecessary. I don't want healthcare and I definitely don't want it from the government. I also don't have the money for healthcare. If I did I'd BUY it from someone else.

Of course the first one is worse, no one should be without a job.

Spoiler

But I despise Obamacare

It doesn't matter if you "want" healthcare, you're going to need it. If you're not insured and some guy rams into you in a car accident (it happens hundreds of times a day) causing medical bills that you can't pay who do you think picks up the tab?

Or what if you're diagnosed with cancer?

 

[linkboy]

umm, the insurance you're buying is from the insurance company. The gov is only there to make sure each plan has a basic necessary thing in it. The gov isn't running your health insurance.

also, honest question, since you don't want healthcare, if you were to get into an auto accident and need surgery, how do you plan to pay for a $100,000 procedure? Get it, and then bail on the bill?

Don't forget to have the rest of us foot the bill, which is one of the major problems in the first place.

And I really, really want to show that video to all of the civilians on my AF Base that aren't working, I bet they'll really appreciate it.

 

[christiankid7]

umm, the insurance you're buying is from the insurance company. The gov is only there to make sure each plan has a basic necessary thing in it. The gov isn't running your health insurance.

also, honest question, since you don't want healthcare, if you were to get into an auto accident and need surgery, how do you plan to pay for a $100,000 procedure? Get it, and then bail on the bill?

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

If you guys are in such a bad position are you sure you don't qualify for Medicaid? Where do you live? In states that accept it Medicaid is being significantly expanded to include people under (I think, someone correct me on this) 133% of the poverty line

 

[B-Dubs]

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

If you guys are really that hard up then either you'll get subsidies to help pay for it or you'll qualify for the medicade expansion. It sounds like you haven't bothered to do any research on this subject.

 

[watershed]

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

If you are poor there are subsidies. It seems like you don't know what you are talking about. Just for clarity, this is not health insurance "from the government". It is from private health insurers as always. It's just a new set of plans that adhere to government standards. Maybe you should read up on it. And if your mom has a job that provides insurance then she won't need this. And if you are under 25 there is a good chance your mom's insurance covers you as well.

 

[InsaneZero]

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

Well, if anything like that happened, then your insurance would be covering the costs.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

so basically, you, and people like you, are the reason why our healthcare cost is so high and rising.

You don't get health insurance, and have no contingency plan when you need to get expensive medical care. And thus, when you do need it, you're gonna bail on the bill, don't pay it, and thus, the rest of us will have to pay for it by having our premiums raised.

Thanks.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

I don't want it because I cannot afford it. My family barely makes enough as it is. If, God forbid anything like that happened, I don't know. All I know is it's gonna make my life and my mom's life (who just recently got a job that barely pays enough to get by. I'm living off scholarships from college.) horrible.

I don't know, it's late. And I probably shouldn't have said anything.

Don't be afraid to talk. Ignore the condescension. The people that replied to your post are trying to help you out as much as anything.

I think if people are showing themselves to be ill-informed it's probably good that we don't jump on them but try to help them.