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[Goodlife]

That second point's certainly fair, but this *is* a public forum, after all.

Yeah, good point

Just interested in the point of view, that's all. I know the world is getting smaller, but sometimes things in America seem completely alien to me and it's good to get an idea of how things work and what people's mindset is.

 

[The Librarian]

So tradition? That could be wrong.

Huh?

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Huh?

I meant why the constitution is outdated, which it is in terms of literature and interpretation. Sorry I'd I confused the point.

 

[Riki]

I meant why the constitution is outdated, which it is in terms of literature and interpretation. Sorry I'd I confused the point.

We have amendments that update the constitution, but passing them is nearly impossible. Especially with the way Republicans have been the past couple decades.

 

[Journeywalker]

Assuming Boehner comes to his senses in time.
I'm not as hopeful.

It's unlikely Boehner WANTS the US to default on its debt. I doubt his ability to make his caucus swallow its pride and do the right thing.

 

[FyreWulff]

I'm sorry if this seems stupid, but why have so many successive administrations let this bill from 1919 be rolled over year after year instead of implementing something more wise?

Like hand debt controls to your treasury?

It wouldn't be as fun to juggle a gun if it wasn't loaded?

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Too old, really? I know that in my city there's 1st gen African refugees from war torn countries that walk through the freezing cold to learn english at the local library. This is your parents excuse?

yup. must say, we made it out pretty well without english

 

[Jackpot]

Well before I go, I say this. While I respect your opinion, I think it's incredibly naïve.

You say I should trust government because the people have control of it. But there's the whole other problem I have. I don't trust people. People are selfish by nature and often times don't know what is good for them. They vote on presidents based on populism and some of them can't even name the Speaker of the House, or how many Senators there are. Some are easily manipulated by propaganda. And of course, some of them believe that handing over more of their freedoms little bit by little bit is going to make life better, as if governments all over the world haven't done that. And I see no reason why America is more exceptional than them.

Keep in mind I was never saying I want Pepsi to run roads or McDonalds to cover Hurricane damage. But I believe in keeping government no bigger than is absolutely needed.

Anyways, good night.

So after posting a bunch of startlingly uninformed statements you're going to run away instead of responding to other people's counter-arguments?

 

[BLACKLAC]

So after posting a bunch of startlingly uninformed statements you're going to run away instead of responding to other people's counter-arguments?

/The modern Republican

 

[Vestal]

I'm sorry if this seems stupid, but why have so many successive administrations let this bill from 1919 be rolled over year after year instead of implementing something more wise?

Like hand debt controls to your treasury?

Its simple. It was never truly used as a bargaining chip. Something would be said but at the end of the day it would be buried in page 137 of a bill and passed without much fuzz.

Given how our constitution is written in regards to the balance of power, it would bring up a various constitutional questions in regards to the power of the executive vs the legislative which no one wants to touch.


The same questions.brought up in 2011 in regards to the 14th amendment, which no politician would want to intentionally tackle if there was nothing for them to gain.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

That must be Poligaf wet dream



Democrats have done this before.

Yes I know they have allowed a shut down before however it's unfair to say this has happened before because what they are using the shutdown for is unprecedented especially considering the house has the votes to end this right now. My point was the current base that makes up the Republican Party would go bat shit crazy if they tried to repeal a republican presidents biggest reform, I should have been more clear.

 

[neoemonk]

Too old, really? I know that in my city there's 1st gen African refugees from war torn countries that walk through the freezing cold to learn english at the local library. This is your parents excuse?

Why are you attacking this guy's parents?

 

[CyclopsRock]

And why is EatinOlives required to give a monkey's flying fuck what a bunch of rotted skeletons 6 feet under the ground in Virginia thought 230 years ago?

Because if you don't, the concept of a constitution is pointless. Indeed, the concept of all laws are pointless; How many laws are there in the US that were passed by legislatures whose members are now all dead? That doesn't matter. If the law isn't absolute, then it's nothing. You can't sort of go along with a constitution, or just live with it when you like it and ignore it when you don't. Amendments are difficult and lengthy in process for a reason.

 

[Blader]

You guys have interest rates on your student loans?

Tremendous ones.

 

[GaimeGuy]

You guys have interest rates on your student loans?

Yep, and they're one of the few types of debts that can't be consolidated or discharged in bankruptcy.

Makes sense, right?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I guess it's really Nintendo who's to blame for the gov shutdown.

 

[hitsugi]

You guys have interest rates on your student loans?

Did you just now decide to start paying attention to America or...? Our education system is right up there with how good our healthcare system is.

Next up: Obamacation. I'd vote for that.

 

[cooljeanius]

I guess it's really Nintendo who's to blame for the gov shutdown.

That's a decent Photoshop.

 

[The Librarian]

Because if you don't, the concept of a constitution is pointless. Indeed, the concept of all laws are pointless;

Actually, it's not. While for certain situations it's good to take into account what the writers intended, there are situations that do appear that the writers could not envision or anticipate. The Constitution is very vague in many areas, and even the founders would disagree on what certain parts would mean.

So, while it's good to keep in mind what they had in mind, it shouldn't be the be all, end all of every situation.

Plus many founders thought black people were less than human and wouldn't agree with giving women the right to vote. So, in those cases, my response to them would be a wholehearted "Fuck you."

 

[hidys]

Yep, and they're one of the few types of debts that can't be consolidated or discharged in bankruptcy.

Makes sense, right?

You really need to fix your country.

 

[Vestal]

You know we can have all the talk, posturing and finger pointing in the world.

The ONLY fact that truly matters is that if the House puts a clean CR up for a vote it passes. The GOP can continue to say all they want, but they can't escape this simple fact.

Why the fuck doesn't the media hammer this point across??

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Nah its legit. Apparently Oct 22nd is when there will be zero left.

The US will not default on its international obligations. Mandatory spending will be cut first to meet interest and debt repayments. Remember that the US can still write paper up to the $16.7tn limit, so if they were to sell assets to meet short term debt repayments, suspend mandatory spending programmes on a temporary basis and cut away all unnecessary spending until the limit is raised, the US would not default on it's debts.

The only way they default is if they are extremely idiotic, yes they will run into a hard ceiling of how much debt they can issue, but that doesn't mean the very next day the government needs to pay back $16.7tn, the roll over won't be more than $5-7bn per day on average which can easily be met from asset sales in the short term and suspending spending programmes in the medium term (assuming that it isn't resolved after Russians call up Obama to inquire about buying Alaska).

 

[tranciful]

You know we can have all the talk, posturing and finger pointing in the world.

The ONLY fact that truly matters is that if the House puts a clean CR up for a vote it passes. The GOP can continue to say all they want, but they can't escape this simple fact.

Why the fuck doesn't the media hammer this point across??

Fair and Balanced

 

[linkboy]

You know we can have all the talk, posturing and finger pointing in the world.

The ONLY fact that truly matters is that if the House puts a clean CR up for a vote it passes. The GOP can continue to say all they want, but they can't escape this simple fact.

Why the fuck doesn't the media hammer this point across??

Because the media in this country is paid to paid to push an agenda, there's no such thing a journalistic integrity in this country anymore. It's all about ratings and who can do a better job of pushing the interests of their corporate backers.

 

[Jintor]

Tremendous ones.

Yep, and they're one of the few types of debts that can't be consolidated or discharged in bankruptcy.

Makes sense, right?

Did you just now decide to start paying attention to America or...? Our education system is right up there with how good our healthcare system is.

Next up: Obamacation. I'd vote for that.

Even with a frankly insane right wing government in power with a note or less anti-education education minister on board, the conservatives in my country (Australia) would never dream of introducing interest on government guaranteed student loans (besides the inflation reevaluation). they'd get lynched.

 

[MThanded]

Anyone watching this GOP press conference?

 

[pigeon]

The US will not default on its international obligations. Mandatory spending will be cut first to meet interest and debt repayments. Remember that the US can still write paper up to the $16.7tn limit, so if they were to sell assets to meet short term debt repayments, suspend mandatory spending programmes on a temporary basis and cut away all unnecessary spending until the limit is raised, the US would not default on it's debts.

The only way they default is if they are extremely idiotic, yes they will run into a hard ceiling of how much debt they can issue, but that doesn't mean the very next day the government needs to pay back $16.7tn, the roll over won't be more than $5-7bn per day on average which can easily be met from asset sales in the short term and suspending spending programmes in the medium term (assuming that it isn't resolved after Russians call up Obama to inquire about buying Alaska).

The Treasury is not capable of refusing specific payments while making others. They've been explaining this for literally years now. There's never been a need before to plan for a graceful default, since there's no sensible reason for us to default. So if we reach the end of the rope, we'll be treating foreign debt the same as all our other obligations.

 

[mackaveli]

Anyone watching this GOP press conference?

Yeah it's complete bullshit.

 

[MThanded]

Yeah it's complete bullshit.

Yeah that was foolish.

 

[Ourobolus]

Anyone watching this GOP press conference?

Is it still going on? I'm too busy facepalming at the House deliberations.

 

[MThanded]

GOP now running with this #letstalk as an official hashtag.

#letstalk #weshuttinshitdown #nogovernmentisthesmallestgovernment #thisisntsomedamngame #downwithsocialism

 

[mattiewheels]

I wonder how popular opinion will swing on this when its said and done. Will we see the same size divide we did during the elections, or will this convince a lot of people to despise the GOP? Or maybe to despise Obama more, separate from the wacky 30%...

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Anyone else around here furloughed? Spending more time on here lately than I have in a while....

 

[watershed]

The problem is that the members of the House GOP conference most responsible for this shutdown are all from extremely safe districts due to gerrymandering. So even as the GOP brand falls to an all time low nationally, these batshit crazy members will still be safe in their districts.

 

[The Librarian]

The problem is that the members of the House GOP conference most responsible for this shutdown are all from extremely safe districts due to gerrymandering. So even as the GOP brand falls to an all time low nationally, these batshit crazy members will still be safe in their districts.

Not entirely.

 

[watershed]

Not entirely.

Interesting, so no matter how many percentage points Obama won their district by, republican representatives in these districts are still taking starkly conservative positions. That begs the question then of how they got elected in the first place in districts that lean democratic in national elections and why so many GOP reps feel completely safe if this data suggests that their seats are competitive.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Not entirely.

Looking at the first article I think is a bit misleading. It goes by ideology based on roll call votes which ignores A LOT of how it is determined how things get to the floor. Then after that it ignores the concept of whipping. Those are some pretty gigantic omissions, particularly when you consider why a clean CR isn't making it to the floor despite what would likely include a not insignificant number of R supporters.

The second article says it isn't just gerrymandering but pretty much willful gerrymandering by people moving into like-minded areas. That doesn't mean we couldn't strive to make more competitive districts there. And either way it's still polarization based on safe districts, regardless of how they got there.

 

[The Librarian]

Interesting, so no matter how many percentage points Obama won their district by, republican representatives in these districts are still taking starkly conservative positions. That begs the question then of how they got elected in the first place in districts that lean democratic in national elections and why so many GOP reps feel completely safe if this data suggests that their seats are competitive.

Not as many people pay attention to their congressional representative (indeed, even in presidential elections there are less votes for congressperson than there are the president) and midterms have different turnout rates among different groups.

Looking at the first article I think is a bit misleading. It goes by ideology based on roll call votes which ignores A LOT of how it is determined how things get to the floor. Then after that it ignores the concept of whipping.

The second article says it isn't just gerrymandering but pretty much willful gerrymandering by people moving into like-minded areas. That doesn't mean we couldn't strive to make more competitive districts there. And either way it's still polarization based on safe districts, regardless of how they got there.

Uh...neither article is saying partisan gerrymandering is a problem, just that it's not this *huge* reason that a lot are making it out to be.

 

[watershed]

Not as many people pay attention to their congressional representative (indeed, even in presidential elections there are less votes for congressperson than there are the president) and midterms have different turnout rates among different groups.

Right, exactly. I read another article today about why the tea party has been so successful in electing their candidates and getting them to vote their way. Aside from having rich financial backers, it's also because many "tea party republicans" were elected on a single issue "stop Obama" and because tea party activists got involved at the ground level in local elections. Democrats are holding huge registered voters margins over the GOP all across the country these days but it hasn't translated beyond national elections yet.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Uh...neither article is saying partisan gerrymandering is a problem, just that it's not this *huge* reason that a lot are making it out to be.

Right, but the point here is I think they are downplaying the "safe district" concept to make the argument that "the people just disagree." At the end of the day, the map matters, and right now the map is not done well. The easiest way to see that is look at the number of people voting for D house reps vs. R house reps, then look at the congressional breakdown. The map does not convey political realities right now.

 

[The Librarian]

Right, but the point here is I think they are downplaying the "safe district" concept to make the argument that "the people just disagree." At the end of the day, the map matters, and right now the map is not done well.

Um, no they're not. They're saying that, in a state like Texas, most counties are won by either presidential candidate by more than ten points – which isn't that competitive. People move to areas where other people agree. Many people in the country *already* live in safe districts, so it's hard to not draw a gerrymandered map, especially when you have to take the VRA into account (though I guess not anymore).

 

[VicDaMoan03]

Democrats, Republicans all the same pissing me off!

 

[entremet]

Democrats, Republicans all the same pissing me off!

More false equivalency I see.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Um, no they're not. They're saying that, in a state like Texas, most counties are won by either presidential candidate by more than ten points – which isn't that competitive. People move to areas where other people agree. Many people in the country *already* live in safe districts, so it's hard to not draw a gerrymandered map, especially when you have to take the VRA into account (though I guess not anymore).

Um, that's the "people just disagree regionally" point. But we're not talking about Texas. We're talking about at the margins, and like I said, the map matters. They're downplaying that.

 

[Diablos]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/04/john-boehner-shutdown-ad_n_4044042.html (video)

Ad to be run during Sunday football comparing John Boehner to a crying baby.

BRILLIANT.

 

[cooljeanius]

More false equivalency I see.

Maybe he forgot some quotation marks... or some other form of punctuation...

 

[The Librarian]

Um, that's the "people just disagree regionally" point. But we're not talking about Texas. We're talking about at the margins, and like I said, the map matters. They're downplaying that.

I think you're ignoring the fact that neither article is saying partisan gerrymandering doesn't matter. The whole point of linking the two articles was to say that gerrymandering *isn't the sole reason* we're in this mess.

 

[Cameron122]

This shutdown business got me all miffed and feelin'

Spoiler

(be presidential)

all kinds of politically disinfranchised

 

[JetBlackPanda]

so yeah.... from NPR

'This Isn't Some Damn Game!' Boehner Says

"This isn't some damn game!" House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, just declared, his voice rising, as he told reporters on Capitol Hill that he believes it's the Obama administration that's to blame for the four day old partial shutdown of the federal government.

Boehner's emotional moment came as he held up — and then slammed down — a copy of Friday's Wall Street Journal, that an unnamed administration official said "we are winning ... It doesn't really matter to us" how long the shutdown lasts.

"The American people don't want their government shut down and neither do I," Boehner added. He called on the president and his aides to "sit down" and negotiate.

"All I'm asking for is to sit down and talk to each other like the American people expect us to,"

 

[commedieu]

so yeah.... from NPR

and there are people that believe this.