SteveWinwood
Member
i feel like this is a false equivalence
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US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised
- Thread starter Jarmel
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CNN tries to follow the "Maybe the answer is really... In the middle." way too hard. Thankfully they're becoming irrelevant.
You've thought about the use of the term a lot more than I have. What else would you call it? I don't think terms like "lies" and "bullshit" help convince anybody to change their mind. You go to Fox News comments section and everybody just accuses Obama and Dems of being liars and Muslim socialists. It doesn't get them anywhere.
maquiladora
Member
Because he is lying.
"False equivalence" is much more specific and thus more descriptive.
"Bullshit" can be useful too, of course.
Bullshit.
That's more like it. LOL
Vestal
Junior Member
Politically speaking its a no win situation for him and the GOP.
What happens if they bring it to the floor.
1. It passes and they are ridiculed for holding out all this time when it could have been solved before the shutdown.
2. It doesn't pass and its 2008 all over again. The GOP gets crucified by the media and the markets go in the fucking toilet. Simply because investors will freak the fuck out believing that if they can't work this out the Debt ceiling has no chance of passing.
the longer this goes the less likely a clean CR sees the light of day, just because the GOP has boxed themselves in and the clean CR would damage them either way. The longer they wait the worse either outcome of voting on a clean Cr becomes for the GOP.
The Librarian
Banned
Your arguments don't make any sense, and out of all the times I've engaged with you, have never made any sense. Hence: bullshit.
That's why Dems need to capitalize on it. Put everyone they can in front of TV cameras pushing the point. Move the conversation away from "We're dems are we're not negotiating because GOP is being unreasonable" and instead focus on the plain fact that Beohner is preventing the house from voting. When someone says "that'd be political suicide for Beohner" or whatever, the Dems should simply respond with "That's not America's problem, that's the GOP's problem. America shouldn't be punished for it."
If you say you're not negotiating because the Republicans are being unreasonable, some idiots are going to think "Well maybe the Republicans ARE being reasonable, maybe the truth is somewhere in the middurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr".
Say what it really is, it's hostage taking on a global scale. You should not negotiate by any means because it legitimizes this strategy.
Just kill them. They're undemocratic and a relic of a time long gone.
The Librarian
Banned
Cloture ≠ filibuster. Well, cloture is a modern-day filibuster. The filibuster in the Senate isn't the problem; it's the cloture of 60 votes.
Whoa hey. I'm all for measures being taken, but killing off Congressmen is a bit too far!
I know what you meant, sorry for the bad joke.
It is a real strategy used by Republicans engineered by Rove. Accuse the other side of what you are doing to muddy the waters and deflect criticism. They are using it right now.
What 'argument' have I posed in this thread? I guess it's a bit of a statement against interest since I'm admitting that my post above wasn't strictly speaking "on topic," but a detached observation on the etymology of a word/term is not "argument."
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Heh. There's in-group signaling in every group, and some people probably use "false equivalence" that way. But I don't think that's its primary use. It's a type of logical fallacy that the GOP has figured out how to take good advantage of in recent years. I'd expect the same thing would happen if some other type of logical fallacy was in vogue.
SteveWinwood
Member
thanks gaf ads
I agree here -- I'm saying they shouldn't talk about themselves "not negotiating" even if it's justified. It's a bad soundbite that leaves them wide open for attack.
I don't think this is much different. It's still saying "GOP is being unreasonable and we can't negotiate with them"
The dems need to move the conversation AWAY from themselves. Don't talk about why you're not negotiating -- that's a distraction from the real issue. The real issue is that Beohner won't even let a vote happen. Not letting a vote happen? Doesn't sound very American to me.
The Librarian
Banned
Statements, then.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Need to shout it from the tops of buildings that this was entirely manufactured by Republicans in the House. And I hope every single Ad for the 2014 elections is just footage of the guy saying they need to get something out of this, though he didn't know what, and clips of Republicans threatening the credit of the United States over a law.
Dems have the polls on their side. They don't need to frame it as "Dems vs GOP" -- they should talk about it in terms of "Americans vs GOP"
"We have negotiated (throw in the examples) -- what we're asking for has enough votes to pass in the House, but Beohner, against the will of Americans, isn't allowing our elected official to vote on it (contrast it with the fact that the Senate HAS been voting on what the House sends them). Look at the polls, we cannot in good conscious negotiate further -- a strong majority of Americans think Obamacare should be off the table for debt/budget negotiations and we can't throw America under the bus to appease these GOP extremists holding the economy hostage."
Why the Dems keep leaving themselves open to so much attack is beyond my comprehension. They need new talking point strategists -- it really infuriates me and I wish I had connections so I could help.
"We have negotiated (throw in the examples) -- what we're asking for has enough votes to pass in the House, but Beohner, against the will of Americans, isn't allowing our elected official to vote on it (contrast it with the fact that the Senate HAS been voting on what the House sends them). Look at the polls, we cannot in good conscious negotiate further -- a strong majority of Americans think Obamacare should be off the table for debt/budget negotiations and we can't throw America under the bus to appease these GOP extremists holding the economy hostage."
Why the Dems keep leaving themselves open to so much attack is beyond my comprehension. They need new talking point strategists -- it really infuriates me and I wish I had connections so I could help.
Escape Goat
Member
Not sure what use a poll this far out is but I certainly hope there are consequences for the GOP.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
It would be an early christmas if it happens.
Manmademan
Member
shows immediate reaction to the shutdown, and who is blaming who. You'd better believe GOP representatives in blue states are watching polls like hawks.
PA-07 and PA-08 are both EXTREMELY vulnerable, even without the shutdown.
Photosynthesis
Member
Can someone explain to me how the previous shutdowns got resolved? And why this would set a precedence if Obama started negotiating as opposed to past shutdowns? A friend argued that this has happened before, and I didn't know enough to offer a rebuttal.
RIP tea party
If I'm remember correctly, noballs reid and turtle mcconell stepped up to the plate and hashed something out since boner and bizzy were spatting.
e: nevermind, I thought you were talking about the last "showdown", not sure about the other shutdowns.
If I'm remember correctly, noballs reid and turtle mcconell stepped up to the plate and hashed something out since boner and bizzy were spatting.
e: nevermind, I thought you were talking about the last "showdown", not sure about the other shutdowns.
SteveWinwood
Member
How/why did Dax get banned?
Shutdowns in the past resulted in disagreements over budgetary issues, dollars and cents. This shutdown is the result of one party, that controls only one of the three relevant chambers in the budget process, withholding funding because they don't like a piece of legislation that previously passed through the constitutional process. The precedent(s) being set is that a party can usurp the Constitutional process using congressional rules to basically hold hostage the economy by refusing to pass a budget if it includes funding for legislation they don't like and allows a minority to basically dictate, at gun point, policy to a majority.
Not always his biggest fan but Thomas Friedman did an excellent job on NPR's On Point breaking down the issue. You could recommend it to your friend:
http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/10/03/american-democracy-friedman
Fareed zakaria also had a good take on his show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Byro1Ji3k
The Tea Party Republican nutballs are willingly trying to dismantle everything this country stands for because billionaires like the Koch Bros would love nothing more than to turn the United States into a China, where we're worked 10-15 hours day, live in the equivalent of stacked up cardboard boxes, and make next to nothing. They've latched onto the ignorant, racist, and religious fanatics in this country to push an agenda of cultural destruction, and as long as people like Boehner fear their ability to throw infinite amounts of money to make them go away if they don't play ball, other than all out revolution, we're on a path that has no turns, no forks.
It's gotten pretty scary just how far down we've gone, but I feel like we're on the tip of everything falling apart for middle class America, and the people orchestrating this are getting exactly what they want.
It's gotten pretty scary just how far down we've gone, but I feel like we're on the tip of everything falling apart for middle class America, and the people orchestrating this are getting exactly what they want.
ZedIndyLil
Member
A few days ago, I felt confident I knew how this would end--a last-minute clean bill from Boehner. Now I'm not so sure. The only thing I can hang my hopes on is that Boehner is still saying that a default would be really bad, unlike many in his party.
I want to see new polls. If the blame is evening out, Dems will probably have to concede something. If that's the case, I hope Dems can make a deal with the medical device tax (no delays etc).
Medical device tax wouldn't be a huge blow to obamacare and it'd make conservatives look even more pathetic. They're on and on about deficits and debt -- getting rid of the medical device tax would reduce revenues and increase deficit/debt. Dems could try to capitalize on the hypocrisy and misguidedness -- "The GOP brought us into a shut down and threatened the world economy and all so they could increase in the country's deficits"
More people should see this -- helps clearly illustrate how both sides aren't equal and it's really the GOP being unreasonable.
SteveWinwood
Member
She's banned?
Perma'd.
ZedIndyLil
Member
Perhaps, but then you read articles like the following, and you realize that the same faction which shut the government down also won't accept anything less than the death of obamacare:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-rep-garrett-debt-limit-deal-must-delay-or-defund-obamacare
I also had some hope that the petition plot by Dems might work, but the main "moderate" R's have come out opposing that, so so much for that.
So far the movement in the polls is good for Dems, but I expect eventually most folks will hate everybody.
If the Dems cave on the medical device tax and the GOP still refuses, I'd hope that seals the fate of the GOP in 2014 and we don't have to deal with this shit any more.
edit: ha, he even says "If it’s just a repeal of the medical-device tax, or chained CPI, that won’t be enough."
edit2: good signs http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...l-grows-in-budget-battle-post-abc-poll-finds/
Approval rating for Obama and Dems on the rise, approval of GOP down. Logic and reason eking out a small victory for now.
ZedIndyLil
Member
I would love for that to happen, I just hope that a massive recession and irreversible damage to the country's credit isn't required for it to occur.
OK, I'm getting bummed now... This may end up being the most depressing thread on GAF soon, and that's saying something.
If it came down to it, I hope Obama tries the 14th amendment route and let the GOP take him to supreme court.
I honestly think there is so much ignorance, hatred and polarization in this country that even if we defaulted about 30-45 percent of our country would blame either democrats/Obama or claim it was everyone's fault.
The above poll actually doesn't give me much confidence at all.
Wat? Damn..
ZedIndyLil
Member
I think a poll before this crisis showed people (about 35%) were OK with not raising the debt limit, more than were OK with a shutdown. So clearly there's a lot of ignorance or there, and I don't think the press coverage so far is really dispelling that ignorance.
I think this is exactly right. I still don't think it'll ever happen when all the politicians are beholden to corporate interests. Not even the Koch brothers want a default. They sure as hell want to threaten a default in order to further their goals, but they really, really, really do not want a default.
jamesinclair
Banned
For what, I couldn't tell you
Oh please, everyone here knows exactly what she did.
What? Why?
If you could enlighten me then you may be right, as it is, I have no idea.
wsoxfan1214
Banned
Shocking.
Approval rating for Obama and Dems on the rise, approval of GOP down. Logic and reason eking out a small victory for now.
Yeah that poll give me hope that the Republicans are going to be rightfully brought to task over this. Well as much as any party can be in this climate. Sometimes I think some of them could murder babies and still get elected if meant people would have to vote for a Democrat.
I have no clue. So if you or someone could tell me(via PM if you want) I would appreciate it.
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