I feel like the fact that everyone involved in the decision process for the country secretly knowing they are set for life is not acting in my best interest, someone that relies on a paycheck to survive. When shit hits the fan, i dont want rich assholes deciding shit for me.
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US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised
- Thread starter Jarmel
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There was also that war. Oh, and endorsing McCain over Obama. Lieberman was a piece of shit all around
Its been scientifically proven that rich people are douches
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/rich-people-just-care-less/
At the same time Joe Schmoe isn't all that bright and probably will make a dumb choice, which is how we got here in the first place. I'm talking about the Tea Party being elected.
Byakuya769
Member
It would be nice if a government shut down led to the loss of congressional pay for the period. I'd like no chance of back-pay for them, also.
Its because "boner" is a banned term (forced safe search).
That's like telling me Santa isn't real.
Sadly 95% of them are millionaires anyway.
But there are a few members who are saying they need their money regardless. Scumbaggery at its finest.
Byakuya769
Member
In the House? Nah, a lot of those guys depend on those checks.
In order to blame someone you have to have a reason for doing so, as a rational actor and all that. The Democrats did nothing but draft and pass a law.
What is your reason? A gut feeling about stuff? What exactly is your reasoning for putting any blame on the Democrats for the Republicans blatantly trying to subvert the entire idea of how the government functions?
If you don't know enough about the issue to have a legit, actually thought-out reason for placing blame, then you should not be placing blame on anyone. You should admit to yourself that your information on the particular issue is low.
But again, if you aren't low information and have a real reason, please state it.
I was making a point about how a normal person responds to an overly depressing situation they haven't quite had to confront personally yet, being acquaintances with people on both sides of the fence, having to live their life and make sense of it. Point being, most folk dont have time or energy to make sense of it, and just say fuck them all for existing an making their lives that much worse.
This is exactly whats happening, whether you like it or not. I dont even know if its the repubs intentions or not. Maybe they realize they are totally fucked and this is the best shot they got, sink the other guys ship cause its a 'democratic' presidency.
Dan Carlin (he of the Hardcore History podcast) covered the shutdown in his most recent Common Sense podcast. He basically discounted the whole thing, saying he believes it to be a manmade problem not worth worrying about, because it will be solved when the people involved decide to solve it, or essentially political theater with no regard for the people being hurt by it. He uses the shutdown as a jumping off point to discuss the creeping increase in poverty that he feels is the real problem threatening the US long term.
As a foreigner who recently spent the summer in the US, I can attest to this. Not knowing things I can understand, but the number of people I met who were either just apathetic or cynical about politics was astounding. There were way too many people that had the "but both parties are the same!" mentality.
Fenderputty
Banned
The idea that most people don't have time to understand what's going on seems like a very cheap cop-out. They simply don't care 99% of the time. The debt ceiling is not a difficult concept. Nor is the idea of what real compromise is. The sequester should be fresh in everyone's mind. Put the people magazine down, turn off American idol and expand your mind a little..
An uneducated and apathetic populace is easy to control.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
its a result of exhaustion from the political process. the point of the whole thing is to get LESS people to vote, not more, because then the people who feel strongly about things will have more influence in the process.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Some people are misinformed. Others willingly wear blinders. I grew up in a small town in central Illinois full of the blinder-crowd. I bet my left nut I can find any zany, crazy ass article about this shutdown being Obama's fault, post it on Facebook and have 100+ likes in no time.
RustyNails
Member
You are correct about the last sentence. But the reality is that median household income in US is less than 50k. We are talking about majority adults, married with kids. Average commute is like upwards an hour. Largest employers are retail. And we know how less vacation time we get. So an average American has a shit job, is overworked, wastes upwards of an hour every day driving, and on top of that has day to day shit to do. After they come home they have at most two hours before they sleep and get back in the cycle. So I dont entirely blame them if they watch honey boo or other mindless brainfiller after work. The problem is a lot more structural than you'd think. Stagnant wages, corporations treating employees like expendable labor, and worker rights slowly eroding away all make for a unhappy person. Before Obamacare it was even worse, where employees used to drop covrrage willy nilly or being denied care because you forgot to mention you took a whiff when you were 16. Think about it. Why would unhappy people want to bother about anything else? And majortiy of jobs in US do not involve sitting in front of a screen with internet access. On the other hand, happy people will gladly vote smart and make right decisions. Its reality. Of course this does not apply to everyone, but you get the picture. Its no wonder that the happiest countries on earth are the ones where government is working as it was intended to. Just read today that the new Norwegian government has made it its priority that every city in Norway must have access to 100mbps internet in short period of time. The problem with America is that we have been on a slow and steady decline since we elected Reagan and enacted trickle down voodoo nonsense, and started worshiping the business man rather than treat him like everyone else. Its the greatest trick ever pulled by a political party in history. Keep giving to the business man with your eyes closed and one day in his magnanimity he will piss on you. Since then it has been a downward trend in our political sphere. We need a drastic overhaul of everything we come to expect in politics. We basically need a Teddy Roosevelt type to shift the paradigm and create a new conversation about America rather than the million variations of a city on a hill from Reagan.
amazing, they are actually excited for a default
An excellent summary. Spot on.
Armoured Priest
Member
I'll admit to having some hope about the Millennial generation. They're still apathetic voters, but in general they are pretty much the best educated generation by far (for the record I'm solidly Gen X). Also, its a big enough generation that meaningful force of numbers can be directed at a problem. Half the equation is there, its just motivating them to take control of their voting destinies. I think its happening, slowly. (I've admitted to being worried, but at heart I am still an optimist...at the end of the day, the world will still be here, and we'll get through this...I just suspect that it may end up being a pretty rough ride).
Fenderputty
Banned
Don't get me wrong, I've thought about all of this. I believe we should be striving towards a utopia like society where humans spend the majority of there time learning, thinking and progressing our society. I hate that we (Americans take the cake here) are married to our jobs.
What incentive do politicians have to change this though? If an apathetic and uneducated populace is easy to control, why would the ones in power ever work to change this? In fact, some are actively trying to make it worse.
People need to start caring or none of what you posted will change. People also need to stop having their opinions fed to them via the media ... But I guess that's wishful thinking right now.
Congressional salaries should be the least of your concerns.
Our own president doesn't, why do you expect the average person to?
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Colbert put it best. The original compromise was Mitt Romney being President.
How can you ask Republicans to give up more than that?
How can you ask Republicans to give up more than that?
Mr. Obama did a lot of damage on this front. Issues the Millennials care about have largely been ignored. 2008 was the first time I voted, and seeing things like Gitmo left open was a big let down. He's obviously had to deal with unfair opposition, but I can't help but feel like he could have done more. Hard to care about politics when you feel like your vote doesn't matter.
Fenderputty
Banned
Are you referring to his past comments? Don't confuse playing politics with ignorance.
Obama can't do any more about gitmo because only congress can close it and they didn't want to. It's a tired argument to continue to blame obama about gitmo.
Literally the first thing Obama did was order guantanamo closed http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantanamoDetentionFacilities
Congress proceeded to explicitly forbid the federal government from using any funds to close guantanamo bay, or to faciliate the transfer of any inmates to the civilian prison system.
Your disappointment is misplaced.
makingmusic476
Member
He signed an executive order to close gitmo day one of his presidency. Then congress passed a law forbidding the transfer of gitmo detainees to anywhere else, foreign or domestic.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantanamoDetentionFacilities
http://www.npr.org/2013/01/23/169922171/obamas-promise-to-close-guantanamo-prison-falls-short
http://swampland.time.com/2013/05/30/why-gitmo-will-never-close/
Edit: Fuuu
It was a bad example, but I can't think of a single issue that he really went to bat over to the extent that I was proud to have voted for him. Millennials have all but been ignored politically.
Edit: correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he sign congress' bill? That was when I gave up on him.
Fenderputty
Banned
Gay rights?
I mean, the dude can't even get the house to pass their own fucking budget. What do you think he's going to be able to do in this political climate?
Who else you gonna vote for? Right.
Elaugaufein
Member
He's kind of softballed that too.
Though given the US politically environment , he's probably done the best that could have been expected (repealing DADT and publicly voicing his approval for gay marriage).
And really speaks to the power of the Republican misinformation machine. I even find myself sometimes accepting an occassional republican talking point as fact because I skipped vetting something I heard from what I considered a non-partisan source that just happened to fall victim to the conservative media's ability to repeat something so much that it becomes accepted regardless of validity.
I keep hearing that people just need to pay attention to politics etc. But I think so many people fail to realize that most people grow up without much education on politics outside of parents offhanded comments and one or two boring civics classes in high school.
And its not like our current media is exactly a bastion of intelligent discourse. Throw in the almost inescapable republican machine that will reach almost anyone that first jumps into politics. Then take it a little further and think of many rural places that literally dont have NPR or any objective news source at their disposal. They basically have talk radio, network news and in the homes that have it, cable news. Not exactly a foundation to become a truly informed citizen.
Yes this generation has the internet but its a destination medium. You pick what info you want to assimilate and if your introduction to politics is the propaganda machine the internet can actually become a reinforcement of ignorance instead of a tool of enlightenment.
The healthcare law? You know he could of just gave up especially when rahm emmanuel wanted him to abandon it. It's not like any of his predecessors were able to accomplish anything close to what he did. The healthcare law is far from perfect but people should give him credit for improving or trying to improve the healthcare system in this country.
While I'm happy it was passed, it's hard to get excited for a Republican made solution to the healthcare problem.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Obama was NEVER going to be a truly transformative POTUS. He ran as a centrist and has governed as such. He's a fine leader for the broken system we've managed to build for ourselves and will probably be looked at as the appropriate post-Bush leader by future historians, but I think it'll be several decades (and a pretty massive political overhaul that is, well, due) before we see a new Roosevelt (either one, really).
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Indeed.
And I used to think Obama was a huge disappointment until I actually started following the day to day politics and realized how insane congress is. That doesn't excuse shit like the NSA stuff and drone strikes, but he can't pass anything when he has to deal with an obstructionist branch.
It's really quite sad. Because talking about how the republicans are being obstructionists, day after day, gets tiring. Even if it's true. I think the average person just says 'fuck them all' after a while because the whole process is just too much.
makingmusic476
Member
And student loans.
And I'd imagine the Affordable Care Act will be a win for my demographic once people starting relying on expanded Medicaid (where they can) or the subsidies. But many in this same demographic are the few that could be adversely effected by the ACA, given some will be forced to pay for stuff they would've opted out of otherwise. (Not to say they're right in doing that, but it will effect opinions.)
Most of what he could've done for millennials he was systematically blocked from doing. American Jobs Act, better funding for college ed or moving to a single-payer system, and so on.
The only areas I'd argue he really mishandled are the NSA stuff, NDAA, drones, and handling the banks with kid gloves. None of that effects millennials in a very tangible way.
It's sad that a centrist has Obama's policies regarding drone strikes and related stuff.
That's really not the point though. You can dress it up however you want, whether it's from satan himself. The fact of the matter, is that our healthcare system WILL get better with the healthcare law and every year it is more successful we move closer to a single payer system. I don't know how you can't get excited for that.
I get that, and it's largely why Millennials have been just as checked out about politics as our parent's generation despite strong feelings socially. It's hard to care when nothing changes.
Elaugaufein
Member
I think its a bit misleading to say he ran as a centrist. He ran left of center on a lot of issues, particularly those likely to actually galvanize the younger block. He's definitely governed as centrist to center-right. And some of that has disillusioned younger voters (he pretty much did a 180 on the "We should spy on everybody all the time thing because its critical to national security but its not actually dangerous enough that you deserve to know why we need to spy on everybody all the time" thing for example). He's probably done a significant amount of damage to anyone genuinely left of center ,having done that, since any future platforms will be viewed with considerable skepticism.
PhoenixDark
Banned
If it works it works, who cares whether it was a republican idea?
I'm not an Obama fan but I don't think you've really laid out your case well. Gitmo is open due to congress, the healthcare law was compromised due to corrupt politicians in both parties (although Obama certainly isn't blameless either), etc. However you've gotten some rather large progress on gay rights, and the healthcare law is arguably the biggest equal rights bill for women in decades. And we apparently/allegedly avoided full blown war with Syria, plus might be making progress on the whole "not attacking Iran" thing.
Much of Obama's presidency is a giant wasted opportunity, but I think it's time for "millennials" to do some research and get some basic facts on what has happened, why, and the obstruction going on - it's not like most of us are busy with jobs or anything.
Ok, let's say it's playing politics.
So when Republicans vote to not to raise the debt ceiling you'll be fine with that, right? I mean, if it was just "playing politics" that had Obama attacking Bush and voting against the debt ceiling, then it's perfectly acceptable for Republicans to do the same, no?
And people wonder why so many of us just say, "Fuck 'em all".
Thank you. This was my original intention, which I very badly mangled.
I think a lot of the millennial backlash with Obama is because many were new to politics and came in very lightly informed and gained unrealistic expectations of what a president could accomplish. Saw the hype and jumped on the bandwagon so to speak.
Then you had the tea party emerge and what was already a process that works slow and piecemeal became a literal stand still. People soured quickly.
Part of it was Obama overselling in his campaign and marketing himself in a way that many people projected their own policy wants onto him. Part of it was supporters ignoring his more candid speeches and interviews where he declared himself a pragmatist, a compromiser and to temper expectations and be realistic in what can feasibly be accomplished. But real or perceived I think a lot of young people became very soured on the process pretty quick and didnt take the time to look deep into the causes and probably never will. I do see a lot of the "whole system is fucked" mentality and a lot of apathy to go with it.
Then you had the tea party emerge and what was already a process that works slow and piecemeal became a literal stand still. People soured quickly.
Part of it was Obama overselling in his campaign and marketing himself in a way that many people projected their own policy wants onto him. Part of it was supporters ignoring his more candid speeches and interviews where he declared himself a pragmatist, a compromiser and to temper expectations and be realistic in what can feasibly be accomplished. But real or perceived I think a lot of young people became very soured on the process pretty quick and didnt take the time to look deep into the causes and probably never will. I do see a lot of the "whole system is fucked" mentality and a lot of apathy to go with it.
Did you vote in 2010?
I can not find the post, but I remember going on a rant in 2011 or in December 2010 when the numbers came out and something ridiculous like seven percent of all people under the age of 30 who had been first time voters in 2008 actually voted in 2010. And those numbers were for my state, Minnesota, which has by far the biggest turnout for elections out of any of the states in the country.
The republicans tried to buy as much time as possible in 2009 and 2010, and then they got the house handed to them on a silver platter because dumb fucks from my generation didn't show up to vote. Cue gerrymandering and stonewalling everything since then (republicans were able to retain the house for 2013 and 2014 thanks to the gerrymandering after the wave election of 2010; They received 1.7 million less votes than democrats in Nov 2012)
Elaugaufein
Member
Technically you should probably care about the healthcare thing. The ACA is a giant hand out to insurance companies. They have to make a profit. You'd probably end up with better "real efficiency" (ie in actually treating and preventing illness) from a public / single-payer option.
The idea that the free market inherently has higher efficiency than the public sector is nuts. The "Efficiency" goes into profit. From the point of view of optimal outcomes for society profit is an inefficiency in the system. The free market will only increase "real efficiency" when competition is so stiff they have to minimize their profit per item in order to compete.
Generally speaking this isn't true of things that the public sector traditionally handles (which are generally things that its impossible to function in modern society without such as utilities and healthcare).
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