Kanye West Is One Of The Greatest Contemporary Artists Of All Time
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beato_angelico
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someone explain to me what "Greatest Contemporary Artist Of All Time" means.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
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Biggest blues guitarist and euro pop sensation.
This has to be a joke account. No one is this fucking stupid all the time.
You're trying too hard.
Short version: He's not one of the greatest "contemporary" artists of all time. Not only does this expression not make any sense but Kanye West is also just not all that special.
Long version: I'm a musician. My strength as a musician is music theory. One thing that I can tell you is that people that we have recognized as "one of the greatest _s of all time" within music generally have an identifiable and visible characteristic to their writing that makes them deserve that title. When we look at the works of Bach, for example (an artist who was legitimately unappreciated in his own time), it is easy to identify why we call him a genius and why others call him a genius because he handles counterpoint with such ease; even if you don't listen to the music you can comprehend his genius by analyzing the logic and flow of his lines. A musician with even a basic theoretical background will be able to at least recognize the genius at work when Bach is composing.
One needs to only glance at a Coltrane solo to see why he is recognized as one of the greats.
Your example of Beethoven is a bit harder for someone who is not used to analyzing music to understand and it is not as apparent as, say, the genius of Bach, who wrote dense counterpoint and managed consonance expertly. But Beethoven gets recognition today for his role as a transition point between Classical and Romantic music and for personally doing much to differentiate the two and define the Romantic canon. There is also much to be said about the influence that he had on his fellow composers, both during his life and after it. People in the habit of analyzing music rarely dispute that Beethoven was a seminal figure in the history of Western music.
Bach, Beethoven and Coltrane all have in common that the music they write is challenging to take in. They tend to provide a lot of information in their music, even if there's not a lot of notes; they are explicitly recognized as geniuses because there is much depth to their choices and to their creative devices. Coltrane, certainly known best for his maximalist approach to improvising, displayed his genius perhaps most famously in a piece that consists almost entirely of half notes, a piece that is definitely not challenging to enjoy but certainly challenging to understand, particularly on the level that he understood it.
When I listen to Kanye West (an exercise I will freely acknowledge I have only engaged in due to the frequency with which people claim he's a genius) I can tell you everything that's happening in the piece on my first or second time through. He writes very straightforward chord progressions and over those chord progressions he writes melodies that conform to these chord progressions in a very straightforward way. He uses suspensions sparingly and resolves them when he does. You'll never hear him sing a passing note and he's very careful to avoid minor ninths; in fact, he seems to get trapped in pentatonics sometimes due to this (very typical) aversion to minor ninths and I applaud him when, on "Heartless", he indicates that he does know about the b6 and uses it liberally. We have reached a point in music where it is more or less impossible to be recognized as having an excellent sense of rhythm when you only operate within the confines of 4/4, which Kanye seems to be doing. He utilizes displacement and syncopation and that gives his lines a good rhythmic flow, but there are a great number of people capable of writing lines in 4/4 that utilize displacement and syncopation to create a good rhythmic flow. In fact, there are a great number of people who can improvise doing so on the spot; that ability might be described as the bare minimum requirement to play jazz, and if that's all you did, people might accuse you of sounding too much like a big band musician from the 1920s.
It is often said by his proponents that Kanye West will be seen as influential, perhaps specifically amending "after he's dead" to this. What influence will this be? The music that he creates is not innovative and I feel that that is not a particularly bold statement to make; people have been writing convincing 4/4 lines over simple chord progressions for a very long time now and it is very difficult to convince anyone thinking critically and historically about this that he's doing so in a virtuous manner. I could be wrong and maybe I'm listening to the wrong stuff. If this is the case, please provide me with recommendations and I will listen to them -- his back catalog is too large for me to listen to the entire thing, particularly since I don't really like him. But I don't think I'm wrong.
I will say, however, that he's a pretty effective producer and his style fits the current pop lexicon to a t.
Long version: I'm a musician. My strength as a musician is music theory. One thing that I can tell you is that people that we have recognized as "one of the greatest _s of all time" within music generally have an identifiable and visible characteristic to their writing that makes them deserve that title. When we look at the works of Bach, for example (an artist who was legitimately unappreciated in his own time), it is easy to identify why we call him a genius and why others call him a genius because he handles counterpoint with such ease; even if you don't listen to the music you can comprehend his genius by analyzing the logic and flow of his lines. A musician with even a basic theoretical background will be able to at least recognize the genius at work when Bach is composing.
One needs to only glance at a Coltrane solo to see why he is recognized as one of the greats.
Your example of Beethoven is a bit harder for someone who is not used to analyzing music to understand and it is not as apparent as, say, the genius of Bach, who wrote dense counterpoint and managed consonance expertly. But Beethoven gets recognition today for his role as a transition point between Classical and Romantic music and for personally doing much to differentiate the two and define the Romantic canon. There is also much to be said about the influence that he had on his fellow composers, both during his life and after it. People in the habit of analyzing music rarely dispute that Beethoven was a seminal figure in the history of Western music.
Bach, Beethoven and Coltrane all have in common that the music they write is challenging to take in. They tend to provide a lot of information in their music, even if there's not a lot of notes; they are explicitly recognized as geniuses because there is much depth to their choices and to their creative devices. Coltrane, certainly known best for his maximalist approach to improvising, displayed his genius perhaps most famously in a piece that consists almost entirely of half notes, a piece that is definitely not challenging to enjoy but certainly challenging to understand, particularly on the level that he understood it.
When I listen to Kanye West (an exercise I will freely acknowledge I have only engaged in due to the frequency with which people claim he's a genius) I can tell you everything that's happening in the piece on my first or second time through. He writes very straightforward chord progressions and over those chord progressions he writes melodies that conform to these chord progressions in a very straightforward way. He uses suspensions sparingly and resolves them when he does. You'll never hear him sing a passing note and he's very careful to avoid minor ninths; in fact, he seems to get trapped in pentatonics sometimes due to this (very typical) aversion to minor ninths and I applaud him when, on "Heartless", he indicates that he does know about the b6 and uses it liberally. We have reached a point in music where it is more or less impossible to be recognized as having an excellent sense of rhythm when you only operate within the confines of 4/4, which Kanye seems to be doing. He utilizes displacement and syncopation and that gives his lines a good rhythmic flow, but there are a great number of people capable of writing lines in 4/4 that utilize displacement and syncopation to create a good rhythmic flow. In fact, there are a great number of people who can improvise doing so on the spot; that ability might be described as the bare minimum requirement to play jazz, and if that's all you did, people might accuse you of sounding too much like a big band musician from the 1920s.
It is often said by his proponents that Kanye West will be seen as influential, perhaps specifically amending "after he's dead" to this. What influence will this be? The music that he creates is not innovative and I feel that that is not a particularly bold statement to make; people have been writing convincing 4/4 lines over simple chord progressions for a very long time now and it is very difficult to convince anyone thinking critically and historically about this that he's doing so in a virtuous manner. I could be wrong and maybe I'm listening to the wrong stuff. If this is the case, please provide me with recommendations and I will listen to them -- his back catalog is too large for me to listen to the entire thing, particularly since I don't really like him. But I don't think I'm wrong.
I will say, however, that he's a pretty effective producer and his style fits the current pop lexicon to a t.
NEOPARADIGM
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Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
What are these boundaries? Where is he pushing them?
He seems bound up pretty tight to me.
Was just wondering this.
Anyways, it's pretty blatantly obvious he's one of the best artists of the last decade. 6 straight great albums, with a huge amount of variety. Very few people in history can say that.
Does matter in the slightest whether he's groundbreaking or not, though he does attempt to push boundaries more than most rappers. He's basically like Radiohead. Radiohead take all their ideas from underground artists and put a "big artist" twist on them. Oh, another comparison to Radiohead: you would have to be just as silly to deny Kanye this merit as you would Radiohead.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
I was willing to hear you out until you compared him to Beethoven. There are way more talented people than him that don't nearly get the attention they deserve.
It's hard to be a genius musician and a successful pop artist... In any case, he's pretty great, and it bugs me as hell when people put him on the same level as fabricated stuff (you know, the pop flavor of the week, e.g. Miley Cyrus).
Great read. Thanks.
Great read. Thanks.
I don't think so.
There are a lot of truly talented folks who collaborate to make his music.
It's kinda hard to label anyone in hip hop/rnb as that because everything is joint made, ghost written or assisted.
To me "artist" just has to stand for more than that, but I get it. It is 2014, kids don't know any better.
There are a lot of truly talented folks who collaborate to make his music.
It's kinda hard to label anyone in hip hop/rnb as that because everything is joint made, ghost written or assisted.
To me "artist" just has to stand for more than that, but I get it. It is 2014, kids don't know any better.
whoa this is off topic...
but thanks. You have said something I have wanted to say for a long time.
If there was a thread comparing Radiohead to Beethoven I'd be in here saying much of the same things. Having said that, Radiohead is at least interested in pushing the boundaries of modern rock music.
There's a difference between saying "he made six albums that I really enjoyed" and "he's a genius"; the former is a subjective statement whereas the latter makes an objective statement so bold that it requires some serious evidence. I really like Nirvana but I don't go around telling people that Kurt Cobain was a musical genius because he wasn't, and no amount of album sales, Smells Like Teen Spirit covers or post-grunge bands will change that. Likewise, Kanye West selling a lot of albums and having a bigass ego does nothing to change the fact that he's writing shallow music.
For what it's worth, I found the two Kanye West albums I listened to (Graduation and MBDTF) to be absolutely unlistenable.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Not to be contrary, but it isn't to me. The only thing of his that ever grabbed me was the sample in "Gold Digger" which, of course, isn't actually his own work.
You're absolutely right, it doesn't; however, every other post in here says something along the lines of he's "groundbreaking" or he's "revolutionised the industry" or, one particular case, he's "bigger than the industry itself" :lol. I'd really like to know what people have heard in his work to make such bold statements.
Cool. Another one for the ignore list.
Damn... with this one and the Bach post (who I hate for making me do those stupid contrapuntal exercises), I'm really starting to like you.
Ether_Snake
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FreddieQuell
Member
That's kind of funny, because Gold Digger is the one song that he said he didn't want to make. He made it because he knew it would be popular.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
They haven't done anything surprising or innovative since Kid A.
So your point is that music is subjective? I mean... yeah? Are we never allowed to discuss whether someone is good again because it's subjective?
Amnesiac is different territory than Kid A but your point stands. Thom is basically coasting by on being famous now. Kanye is at the height of his fame and he's still taking dramatic left turns in his music.=, tryin to do something interesting.
depths20XX
Member
People keep saying he's pushing the envelope and breaking new ground. I guess I'm not hearing the right songs from him or something. I mean, the dude has fucking Rihanna singing a hook on his songs just like every other RnB/Rap dude out now.
While at face value it appears to be an oxymoron, you can think of it as the OP saying that Kanye is one of the best artists in history at capturing the spirit of his particular era and elevating it to something timeless.
I don't listen to Radiohead. All I can tell you is that 15 Step is written in five and that puts them leaps and bounds in the innovation category over most of the other bands making music under the "modern rock" banner.
But we're not discussing whether or not we like Kanye West. We're discussing whether or not he's a genius, which is a statement that can be evaluated -- at least partially -- objectively. I wrote a giant post in this thread where I did exactly that and came to the conclusion that he's both not a genius and not all that special.
double jump
you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Have a listen to Pyramid Song.
ie raid the Warp Records Back Catalogue.
Full disclosure: I love Radiohead.
Outkast did that. Kanye might have beckoned them in.
Unhandled Exception
Member
You're probably right and that just makes it all the worse.
Extra Sauce
Member
He's a brilliant Hip-Hop producer and composer but his lyrical/rapping abilities are lacking.
So no.
So no.
That people consider 5/4 to be an unusual time signature demonstrates exactly why it is so necessary to treat its utilization as innovation: 4/4 (and, to a lesser extent, 3/4 and 6/8) is so ubiquitous that writing a convincing pop melody in 5/4 (15 Step) is a strange sight indeed.
This was neat. I didn't like it until the drums came in. The reason I cite 15 Step specifically is that there are more or less two ways to utilize composite meter in the context of Western music: You can use it specifically because Western listeners will tend to interpret it as jarring and abrupt or you can use it and try to subvert that trope. There are countless examples of the former (like Pyramid Song), while examples of the latter are very rare in popular music. Broken Social Scene did a piece like that too called, aptly, 7/4 (Shoreline).Screaming Meat said:
Genius is just as subjective when it comes to music. But the discussion is about whether he's one of the best contemporary artists. IMO he's up there with Converge, Actress, Burial... I can't even really think of anyone else that competes tbh.
CountBlack
Member
Kanye West is one of the greatest musicians of all time tho
dead souls
Member
He's pretty great, but holy shit is he overrated.
double jump
you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
so my question is what modern musicians do you think are geniuses that also have an extremely high level of popularity?
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I never got this Kanye West thing, thought he's been mediocre as an artist for most of his career.
He's had a few cuts that have been alright, but overall.. forgettable... so much so that I'm surprised every time I'm online and a Kanye thread is up and he's being praised as one of the greatest ever.
He's had a few cuts that have been alright, but overall.. forgettable... so much so that I'm surprised every time I'm online and a Kanye thread is up and he's being praised as one of the greatest ever.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Not alone, no; but they pillage plenty of interesting techniques and ideas beyond that and put them into the pop forum (I would suggest) a lot more successfully than Kanye.
A couple of examples off the top of my head: Radiohead poached Penderecki's little trick of using two String sections tuned a half-step out from each other to beautiful effect. They also tried to score a homage/version of one of Charles Mingus' disasterous concerts where he hadn't managed to write all the sheet music for the players (can't remember what concert that was, one of the Town Hall ones, I think).
I guess it's all about who you poach
I guess it's all about who you poach
I guess when Kanye West poaches Can it turns out like shit and when Radiohead does it it turns out good.
CountBlack
Member
Everyone here knows who Kanye is..
But what the fuck is a pink Floyd
But what the fuck is a pink Floyd
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
...what and how you poach it, too XD
No, you'd guess wrong. I'll have a listen when I get back from work. I know the Radiohead track and I have to say, apart from a few songs, I don't really like King of Limbs at all. A better example of them ripping off Can is this one.
Soulscribe
Member
Kanye West, Justin Timberlake, Beyonce and Lady Gaga are pretty much signed and sealed as the titans of contemporary music. They'll definitely be placed on a caliber similar to Whitney, Madonna, Michael, Bowie and the like.
TheOohChild
Member
I like Kanye and he's a really talented dude, but I full body cringe whenever I see someone refer to him as a genius
He pioneered the use of speeded up, chipmunk voice soul samples I think
He pioneered the use of speeded up, chipmunk voice soul samples I think
There is a subjective element to it but it is certainly not entirely subjective, and the subjectivity part mostly addresses musicians on the fringe of what is conventionally defined as musicianship like John Cage.
For him to be called a genius, there would have to be something that holds up under scrutiny that's identifiable. As I illustrated in my earlier post, most (if not all) of the musicians commonly described as geniuses by musicians have characteristics of their writing that can be identified in their work even if you don't particularly like their work. I cannot listen to Bach but I can tell you exactly why he's described as a genius.
So far, no one in this thread has really rendered any argument like this and that's sort of the only thing that would validate the opinion that he's a genius. Without some sort of score analysis it reads like "I like Kanye West a lot and he says he's a genius, therefore he's a genius".
To use your example, Converge writes some very excellent music and their interpretation on the punk vocabulary is very unique and far beyond anything that their contemporaries were doing, particularly when you look at their material from the mid-nineties. You don't need to be a fan of Converge to get this, and in fact if I presented a score of some of their music and the music of some of the other bands in their genre to be studied, others would come to similar conclusions. I'm not getting this with Kanye.
I don't think Converge are geniuses, by the way, although they're certainly very smart. Within that genre and scope of musicians the one that I'm most likely to define as a genius is Ben Weinman, and even then I can think of at least a few perfectly valid criticisms to that claim.
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