Kanye West Is One Of The Greatest Contemporary Artists Of All Time

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Genius is just as subjective when it comes to music. But the discussion is about whether he's one of the best contemporary artists. IMO he's up there with Converge, Actress, Burial... I can't even really think of anyone else that competes tbh.

Also, it's kind of hard to talk with someone who cant stomach the music s/he's commenting on. I really enjoy RPGs and competitive FPSes, but don't let me talk about fighting games. This conversation is as much about a pop culture study as it is music theory analysis.
 
For what it's worth, I found the two Kanye West albums I listened to (Graduation and MBDTF) to be absolutely unlistenable.

As someone who loves most of Kanye's music, I'd say definitely listen to Late Registration and College Dropout. Graduation is my least favorite album of his and MBDTF is more of a tonal album for me, the lyrics are lacking and the production is pretty bombastic (but I love the idea behind it all the same).
 
so my question is what modern musicians do you think are geniuses that also have an extremely high level of popularity?
Extremely high level of popularity? I would say none of them. In fact, I would be very skeptical of defining any currently living musician as a genius outside of perhaps Herbie Hancock.

EDIT: Also Ornette Coleman, who I really thought *was* dead.
Also, it's kind of hard to talk with someone who cant stomach the music s/he's commenting on. I really enjoy RPGs and competitive FPSes, but don't let me talk about fighting games. This conversation is as much about a pop culture study as it is music theory analysis.
I've written papers on Bach and on various operas. I cannot stand listening to either of those things but it's not difficult for me to recognize their strengths.

Copying and pasting because it's going to get lost on the last page:

Genius is just as subjective when it comes to music. But the discussion is about whether he's one of the best contemporary artists. IMO he's up there with Converge, Actress, Burial... I can't even really think of anyone else that competes tbh.
There is a subjective element to it but it is certainly not entirely subjective, and the subjectivity part mostly addresses musicians on the fringe of what is conventionally defined as musicianship like John Cage.

For him to be called a genius, there would have to be something that holds up under scrutiny that's identifiable. As I illustrated in my earlier post, most (if not all) of the musicians commonly described as geniuses by musicians have characteristics of their writing that can be identified in their work even if you don't particularly like their work. I cannot listen to Bach but I can tell you exactly why he's described as a genius.

So far, no one in this thread has really rendered any argument like this and that's sort of the only thing that would validate the opinion that he's a genius. Without some sort of score analysis it reads like "I like Kanye West a lot and he says he's a genius, therefore he's a genius".

To use your example, Converge writes some very excellent music and their interpretation on the punk vocabulary is very unique and far beyond anything that their contemporaries were doing, particularly when you look at their material from the mid-nineties. You don't need to be a fan of Converge to get this, and in fact if I presented a score of some of their music and the music of some of the other bands in their genre to be studied, others would come to similar conclusions. I'm not getting this with Kanye.

I don't think Converge are geniuses, by the way, although they're certainly very smart. Within that genre and scope of musicians the one that I'm most likely to define as a genius is Ben Weinman, and even then I can think of at least a few perfectly valid criticisms to that claim.
 
Ok i think Kayne is beyond douchey, but i wont judge him because of that.

I still think his music is shit, commercial and very group focused to make the biggest impact in the industry and thus, making shittons of money. Him and Jay-Z or any ex-real-rapper who became addicted to fame and money, are crappy artists who want to make money more than building a strong heritage in music. But hey, they can't build any force in music because they can't.

No commercial artist alive today can be compared to Bethoven, i hope that is a joke because you just insulted probably one of the best artists of all time.

The OP comparison can't be taken seriously lol...
 
...what and how you poach it, too XD

No, you'd guess wrong. I'll have a listen when I get back from work. I know the Radiohead track and I have to say, apart from a few songs, I don't really like King of Limbs at all. A better example of them ripping off Can is this one.

I think that one is a less blatant (abd a nycg better song) Can "homage" than the one I linked though.
 
Ok i think Kayne is beyond douchey, but i wont judge him because of that.

I still think his music is shit, commercial and very group focused to make the biggest impact in the industry and thus, making shittons of money. Him and Jay-Z or any ex-real-rapper who became addicted to fame and money, are crappy artists who want to make money more than building a strong heritage in music. But hey, they can't build any force in music because they can't.

No commercial artist alive today can be compared to Bethoven, i hope that is a joke because you just insulted probably one of the best artists of all time.

The OP comparison can't be taken seriously lol...

The idea that making music accessible somehow diminishes your artistry or musicality is bullshit. You're creating music so that people can listen to it. You can be smart and make the music you want all the while making it listenable en masse; it doesn't have to be a sacrifice. It's called not being stupid.

Michael, Kanye, Gaga, Jay-Z, Madonna, Justin Timberlake, Beyonce... these are all real artists that put their all into their music, while also making it accessible to radio and the mainstream. You can do both.



As for the OP, I do think the public holds back from paying Kanye praise because they don't like him personally. If he knew how to edit himself he would be placed on a much higher public pedestal. It's his own fault.
 
I think that one is a less blatant (abd a nycg better song) Can "homage" than the one I linked though.

I think it is a total rip off of (forgive the spelling) the opening to 'Hallejuwah' from Tago Mago (i think its that one), especially the bass and drums. No one's ever agreed, though XD

Does the Kanye track just sample a Can song? Which Can songs do both those tracks you mentioned poach from?
 
Kanye West, Justin Timberlake, Beyonce and Lady Gaga are pretty much signed and sealed as the titans of contemporary music. They'll definitely be placed on a caliber similar to Whitney, Madonna, Michael, Bowie and the like.

Ugh comparing all that shit to Bowie is offensive on so many fucking levels and should be bannable imo.
 
Kanye West, Justin Timberlake, Beyonce and Lady Gaga are pretty much signed and sealed as the titans of contemporary music. They'll definitely be placed on a caliber similar to Whitney, Madonna, Michael, Bowie and the like.

Two of those things are not like the others.

Don't Lump Michael and Bowie in with this crowd.

And Yeezus is not fucking unlistenable, you don't have to like it, but it's not objectively terrible.
 
The idea that making music accessible somehow diminishes your artistry or musicality is bullshit. You're creating music so that people can listen to it. You can be smart and make the music you want all the while making it listenable en masse; it doesn't have to be a sacrifice. It's called not being stupid.

Michael, Kanye, Gaga, Jay-Z, Justin Timberlake, Beyonce... these are all real artists that put their all into their music, while also making it accessible to radio and the mainstream. You can do both.
The music industry has pushed the standards for accessibility so high that modern pop music must be entirely unchallenging and therefore both rhythmically and melodically simple. These are incredibly narrow confines for a "genius" to work within. These artists are tasked with writing music that will satisfy broad demographics.

You say you don't have to make sacrifices. How is this not making sacrifices? The sacrifice that pop music has always made is dissonance for accessibility. Now the dissonance is gone completely and all we're left with is accessibility; you can't have both.

EDIT: I should make clear that pop music also makes other sacrifices, but the big one is definitely dissonance.
 
The one thing I just don't like I'd there is no subtlety to his newer music, its just in your face bloat. Maybe I need to get a vinyl of his music to dig deeper, but I just hate the god damn bloat and loudness. (and no I don't have beats I've got a pretty decent head set up.)
 
And Yeezus is not fucking unlistenable, you don't have to like it, but it's not objectively terrible.
I turned off MBDTF more times than I am willing to count. I remember earlier that day forcing myself to listen to all thirty eight minutes of this and deciding at that moment that Kanye was more abrasive to my ears than free jazz.

Incidentally, the album that I linked is actually totally brilliant and I will admit that I was absolutely entirely ignorant of that fact the first time I listened to it. It, like a lot of good music, takes a little while to stick.
 
The one thing I just don't like I'd there is no subtlety to his newer music, its just in your face bloat. Maybe I need to get a vinyl of his music to dig deeper, but I just hate the god damn bloat and loudness. (and no I don't have beats I've got a pretty decent head set up.)

As much as I like his newer music the mastering jobs on his records are absolute shit. They're way too loud and they clip like crazy. The MBDTF vinyl is marginally better than the CD/Digital versions but only by a hair.
 
The Kanye track samples "Sing Swan Song" from Ege Bamyasi and the Radiohead song just sorta really sounds like Can to me. lmao

Ha! Lot's of their stuff does, frankly. I love 'em but i'm aware of how in debt to their influences they are.

Having said that, sampling something is a lot different to using a musical technique (motorik drumming, in this instance).
 
I like his production.

But I really can't understand why people think he's a great rapper. He has next-to-no flow, and his lyrics are usually pretty average. So why is he thought of as "the thinking man's rapper"? Is it because most of his audience hasn't bothered to scratch beyond the surface of hip-hop? Many other rappers make (better) thoughtful music, and have been doing it for years.
 
The music industry has pushed the standards for accessibility so high that modern pop music must be entirely unchallenging and therefore both rhythmically and melodically simple. These are incredibly narrow confines for a "genius" to work within. These artists are tasked with writing music that will satisfy broad demographics.

You say you don't have to make sacrifices. How is this not making sacrifices? The sacrifice that pop music has always made is dissonance for accessibility. Now the dissonance is gone completely and all we're left with is accessibility; you can't have both.

EDIT: I should make clear that pop music also makes other sacrifices, but the big one is definitely dissonance.

even though I'm not a fan of the album I hear parts of yeezus trying to change this.
Kanye does seem like he's trying to leave the beaten path.


edit: oh and that free jazz link is the bees knees
 
I like his production.

But I really can't understand why people think he's a great rapper. He has next-to-no flow, and his lyrics are usually pretty average. So why is he thought of as "the thinking man's rapper"? Is it because most of his audience hasn't bothered to scratch beyond the surface of hip-hop? Many other rappers make (better) thoughtful music, and have been doing it for years.

It's that scowl. Makes him look serious.
 
Having said that, sampling something is a lot different to using a musical technique (motorik drumming, in this instance).

Yeah, yeah I know. I guess a more apt comparison would be how Radiohead sampled Penderecki on Climbing Up the Walls (which was a brilliant sample!). :P
 
Let us get this out of the way, My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is one of the greatest albums of the past ten years. With that said I feel like Kanye's shenanigans make people disregard the music he's actually made, and I feel like most people won't respect his work until after he's dead because of his behavior. Kanye is an asshole, I think this is agreed upon by a lot of people, and I'm not going to spend any time defending the type of person he is. But it should be known that the music he makes is separate from the person he is.

I also feel like if you don't enjoy Kanye's music, you still have to acknowledge all the work he's done for not only the Hip Hop genre, but for music in general. Similar to how you don't need to like Beethoven to respect the effect he had on the Classical Era. And yes I just compared Kanye West to Beethoven. Overall it just seems like people hate on the guy to hate on him, when in reality he's creating some of the best music of our generation and it appears that no one can admit that.

And yes the title is intended to be a joke about the VMA thing.


Ha.

I see Kanye as contributing most of the crimes toward Hip Hop or at least it's current state. And his music might be 'good' in isolation when compared to the rest of the trite mainstream bile but in the grand scheme he's just as deplorable.
 
I turned off MBDTF more times than I am willing to count. I remember earlier that day forcing myself to listen to all thirty eight minutes of this and deciding at that moment that Kanye was more abrasive to my ears than free jazz.

Incidentally, the album that I linked is actually totally brilliant and I will admit that I was absolutely entirely ignorant of that fact the first time I listened to it. It, like a lot of good music, takes a little while to stick.
Since apparently appeals to my own experience are worth less then yours Imma defer to my main man Lou Reed.

http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/lou-reed

Do you have an example I can check out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0QcxWPB59o
 
The music industry has pushed the standards for accessibility so high that modern pop music must be entirely unchallenging and therefore both rhythmically and melodically simple. These are incredibly narrow confines for a "genius" to work within. These artists are tasked with writing music that will satisfy broad demographics.

You say you don't have to make sacrifices. How is this not making sacrifices? The sacrifice that pop music has always made is dissonance for accessibility. Now the dissonance is gone completely and all we're left with is accessibility; you can't have both.

EDIT: I should make clear that pop music also makes other sacrifices, but the big one is definitely dissonance.

Pop music is only as accessible or inaccessible as musicians want it to be. Many acts that seem to tread the line more toward inaccessible/niche music have found success on radio. Coldplay, Nirvana, Muse, Bowie, Prince. And they didn't make sacrifices; their more successful music is just as reverent as their less sucessful music. So no, you don't have to be making sacrifices of quality or substance in order to have people like your music. It's about getting your message/music across in the best way, not the simplest.

Ugh comparing all that shit to Bowie is offensive on so many fucking levels and should be bannable imo.

So you like Bowie. Got it.
 
Since apparently appeals to my own experience are worth less then yours Imma defer to my main man Lou Reed.

http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/lou-reed
When did I say that? I was providing my example to illustrate how someone can find him unlistenable.

I think if you changed some words in that article and didn't mention Kanye's name you could pass this off as being written about Doolittle.

Good stuff. I'll check these out.

Pop music is only as accessible or inaccessible as musicians want it to be. Many acts that seem to tread the line more toward inaccessible/niche music have found success on radio. Coldplay, Nirvana, Muse, Bowie, Prince. And they didn't make sacrifices; their more successful music is just as reverent as their less sucessful music. So no, you don't have to be making sacrifices of quality or substance in order to have people like your music. It's about getting your message/music across in the best way, not the simplest.
I'm not sure you and I have the same definitions of "inaccessible". I don't know anything about David Bowie (really not a fan) but three of the other four acts you listed mostly involve themselves with extremely conventional harmonic stuff that is only dissonant by the standards of today's super diluted pop music.

Nirvana escapes that category by virtue of Radio Friendly Unit Shifter, Scentless Apprentice and some of their other stuff but they, too, mostly approach dissonance from the classical functional harmony standpoint and were generally averse to it outside of those pieces.
 
Co fucking signed. People let there hate for him overthrow his music which is quality at best. You don't get Kanye and rappers these days. The closet would probably be drake but not even him can out do Kanye. However, I hope people do appreciate his music better than listen to the media always talking about his attitude. The fact that this man can sell $600+ Air Yeezys means that he has exponential impacT.
 
Yeah, yeah I know. I guess a more apt comparison would be how Radiohead sampled Penderecki on Climbing Up the Walls (which was a brilliant sample!). :P

Woah! I didn't know that! Do you know which piece it's from?

Fun fact: Climbing Up The Walls is brilliant... Especially when played backwards!
 
I like his production.

But I really can't understand why people think he's a great rapper. He has next-to-no flow, and his lyrics are usually pretty average. So why is he thought of as "the thinking man's rapper"? Is it because most of his audience hasn't bothered to scratch beyond the surface of hip-hop? Many other rappers make (better) thoughtful music, and have been doing it for years.

Same.
 
I turned off MBDTF more times than I am willing to count. I remember earlier that day forcing myself to listen to all thirty eight minutes of this and deciding at that moment that Kanye was more abrasive to my ears than free jazz.

Incidentally, the album that I linked is actually totally brilliant and I will admit that I was absolutely entirely ignorant of that fact the first time I listened to it. It, like a lot of good music, takes a little while to stick.

I had a similar experience with MBDTF.. kept hearing it was genius. Such a difficult album to get through.

It's not like I don't have a varied taste in music, but I just don't get the love. Then again Pitchfork gave it a 10, which probably says enough about why some will claim it's so great. Take that for what you will.
 
I'm not sure you and I have the same definitions of "inaccessible". I don't know anything about David Bowie (really not a fan) but three of the other four acts you listed mostly involve themselves with extremely conventional harmonic stuff that is only dissonant by the standards of today's super diluted pop music.

Nirvana escapes that category by virtue of Radio Friendly Unit Shifter, Scentless Apprentice and some of their other stuff but they, too, mostly approach dissonance from the classical functional harmony standpoint and were generally averse to it outside of those pieces.

I guess the point is that you can be a reverant artist and musician and still abide by conventional harmonics. Blatantly avoiding ubiquitous (or "pop") types of song structure doesn't automatically make you a better artist, nor does blatantly using those types. Every single song in the world uses SOME kind of song structure/harmonic style that has been done before. You don't get less points for using a style that's been done 100 times versus using a style that's been done 10 times.

Lady Gaga, for example, insists on using tried and true harmonic styles (and chord progressions) because she finds that she can get her authenticity and artistic "pinache" across without distracting the listener with an alternative song structure. That, to me, is being a smart artist. She didn't have to sacrifice any of her musicality, all the while making all of her authentic points across to a large audience, and it's all done through catchy music that people like. And guess what? Kanye West does that too. They're two sides of the exact same coin.
 
I'm not sure you and I have the same definitions of "inaccessible". I don't know anything about David Bowie (really not a fan) but three of the other four acts you listed mostly involve themselves with extremely conventional harmonic stuff that is only dissonant by the standards of today's super diluted pop music.

Fix that.

100% Actual musical genius right there.
 
I don't have anything against his music, its kind-of-ok. (and thats a good rating coming from a guy who doesn't listen to that kind of music)

But you have to admit that he's acting unhealthy arrogant and that he comes off as the biggest douche in the history, which makes it very hard to like him as a person.

Also; I can't believe that Jimmy Kimmel postponed the best band in the world, the Arctic Monkeys, just because Kanye wouldn't stop talking about his petty hollywood problems...

did you just call the artic monkeys the best band in the world.
Also Kanye influenced the non gangsta mainstream rap (Lupe fiasco) and with 808s created the avenue for Drake. He really has pushed hip hop further than it was, but I doubt he has the same ability to do so anymore. We'll see.
 
Short version: He's not one of the greatest "contemporary" artists of all time. Not only does this expression not make any sense but Kanye West is also just not all that special.

Long version: I'm a musician. My strength as a musician is music theory. One thing that I can tell you is that people that we have recognized as "one of the greatest _s of all time" within music generally have an identifiable and visible characteristic to their writing that makes them deserve that title. When we look at the works of Bach, for example (an artist who was legitimately unappreciated in his own time), it is easy to identify why we call him a genius and why others call him a genius because he handles counterpoint with such ease; even if you don't listen to the music you can comprehend his genius by analyzing the logic and flow of his lines. A musician with even a basic theoretical background will be able to at least recognize the genius at work when Bach is composing.

One needs to only glance at a Coltrane solo to see why he is recognized as one of the greats.

Your example of Beethoven is a bit harder for someone who is not used to analyzing music to understand and it is not as apparent as, say, the genius of Bach, who wrote dense counterpoint and managed consonance expertly. But Beethoven gets recognition today for his role as a transition point between Classical and Romantic music and for personally doing much to differentiate the two and define the Romantic canon. There is also much to be said about the influence that he had on his fellow composers, both during his life and after it. People in the habit of analyzing music rarely dispute that Beethoven was a seminal figure in the history of Western music.

Bach, Beethoven and Coltrane all have in common that the music they write is challenging to take in. They tend to provide a lot of information in their music, even if there's not a lot of notes; they are explicitly recognized as geniuses because there is much depth to their choices and to their creative devices. Coltrane, certainly known best for his maximalist approach to improvising, displayed his genius perhaps most famously in a piece that consists almost entirely of half notes, a piece that is definitely not challenging to enjoy but certainly challenging to understand, particularly on the level that he understood it.

When I listen to Kanye West (an exercise I will freely acknowledge I have only engaged in due to the frequency with which people claim he's a genius) I can tell you everything that's happening in the piece on my first or second time through. He writes very straightforward chord progressions and over those chord progressions he writes melodies that conform to these chord progressions in a very straightforward way. He uses suspensions sparingly and resolves them when he does. You'll never hear him sing a passing note and he's very careful to avoid minor ninths; in fact, he seems to get trapped in pentatonics sometimes due to this (very typical) aversion to minor ninths and I applaud him when, on "Heartless", he indicates that he does know about the b6 and uses it liberally. We have reached a point in music where it is more or less impossible to be recognized as having an excellent sense of rhythm when you only operate within the confines of 4/4, which Kanye seems to be doing. He utilizes displacement and syncopation and that gives his lines a good rhythmic flow, but there are a great number of people capable of writing lines in 4/4 that utilize displacement and syncopation to create a good rhythmic flow. In fact, there are a great number of people who can improvise doing so on the spot; that ability might be described as the bare minimum requirement to play jazz, and if that's all you did, people might accuse you of sounding too much like a big band musician from the 1920s.

It is often said by his proponents that Kanye West will be seen as influential, perhaps specifically amending "after he's dead" to this. What influence will this be? The music that he creates is not innovative and I feel that that is not a particularly bold statement to make; people have been writing convincing 4/4 lines over simple chord progressions for a very long time now and it is very difficult to convince anyone thinking critically and historically about this that he's doing so in a virtuous manner. I could be wrong and maybe I'm listening to the wrong stuff. If this is the case, please provide me with recommendations and I will listen to them -- his back catalog is too large for me to listen to the entire thing, particularly since I don't really like him. But I don't think I'm wrong.

I will say, however, that he's a pretty effective producer and his style fits the current pop lexicon to a t.
I like this viewpoint, but I hope you know that you cannot be objective about music because you know music theory. It means nothing.
 
I do think that Kayne is great, but don't think he's yet GOAT status yet.

Also imo CD and LR are his weakest albums, Graduation is when he started getting good.
 
Holy shit. Fugu saved the thread.

Really interesting analysis, thanks for that.

And besides, Futurama has already confirmed what will be considered classical music many centuries in the future: Sir Mix A Lot
 
I'm not sure you and I have the same definitions of "inaccessible". I don't know anything about David Bowie (really not a fan)

seriously check out the Station to Station and the Berlin-era records. I think you'd find lots to love. Majorly influenced by kraut rock and minamilism/drone.
 
I like this viewpoint, but I hope you know that you cannot be objective about music because you know music theory. It means nothing.
Of course not, but I can be objective in my analysis about music because I know music theory. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't like Kanye. I love tonnes of artists that aren't geniuses; I just don't make threads about how they're geniuses.

I guess the point is that you can be a reverant artist and musician and still abide by conventional harmonics. Blatantly avoiding ubiquitous (or "pop") types of song structure doesn't automatically make you a better artist, nor does blatantly using those types. Every single song in the world uses SOME kind of song structure/harmonic style that has been done before. You don't get less points for using a style that's been done 100 times versus using a style that's been done 10 times.

Lady Gaga, for example, insists on using tried and true harmonic styles (and chord progressions) because she finds that she can get her authenticity and artistic "pinache" across without distracting the listener with an alternative song structure. That, to me, is being a smart artist. She didn't have to sacrifice any of her musicality, all the while making all of her authentic points across to a large audience, and it's all done through catchy music that people like. And guess what? Kanye West does that too. They're two sides of the exact same coin.
Their chosen style makes the songwriting process really, really easy. It also produces music that is, by definition, totally devoid of depth. And that's fine! But that makes these people a really hard sell for the category of "musical genius" because almost anyone with some training and time can compose this kind of music.

Also, there's a lot of bullshit in this post, like where you ascribe things outside of the pop lexicon as "alternative structures" and then go on to say that these "alternative structures" are a distraction from authenticity.

Fix that.

100% Actual musical genius right there.
I'll try, but I've tried before and it hasn't gone well. His aesthetics really rub me the wrong way.
 
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