US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised

Status
Not open for further replies.
Not my fight, but, Empty Vessel (EV) is right in this argument, There is no non-political reason for the US to issue debt rather than simply print money.

Can inflation be damaging? Absolutely, and EV has stated so several times.

You are acing a lot like Hannity or Limbaugh. You're making factual statements without factual backing; You're throwing out accusations without facts to back them up.

Treasuries around the world opt issue bonds rather than print money, are they all under the boot of some corporate conspiracy? Or do they issue bonds because its a reliable, inexpensive, easily reversible way of enacting monetary policy. Printing money is highly inflationary, that isn't controversial in economic circles. Its only controversial in Austrian circles and whatever this MMT crackpot left wing alternative half of this forum is into is.
 
Treasuries around the world opt issue bonds rather than print money, are they all under the boot of some corporate conspiracy? Or do they issue bonds because its a reliable, inexpensive, easily reversible way of enacting monetary policy. Printing money is highly inflationary, that isn't controversial in economic circles. Its only controversial in Austrian circles and whatever this MMT crackpot left wing alternative half of this forum is into is.

The basic argument seems to be that if money is not tied down to a specific commodity, it doesn't really MEAN anything, and printing it is only likely to cause inflation if we're maximizing our economic potential and there's nowhere for the excess to go. As inflation is extremely low right now, while the economy continues to recovery quite sluggishly, that might suggest that we have plenty of elbow room to print money - which is more liquid than issuing bonds, a practice that began in an older time and a different system - without really worrying about it inflating anything.

I have no idea if this is true or not, but that's my understanding of the theory, in a nutshell.
 
so basically the US will default this week if nothing happens?
Not necessarily, The US brings in a lot of money with taxes each day. That could pay a debt for weeks if we are lucky, But eventuality we will just not have enough. No one knows for sure when that day is, some experts predict early November. But the day will come, despite what the Tea Party might say.

But if we don't pass something by the 18th the markets will collapse anyways.
 
Not necessarily, The US brings in a lot of money with taxes each day. That could pay a debt for weeks if we are lucky, But eventuality we will just not have enough. No one knows for sure when that day is, some experts predict early November. But the day will come, despite what the Tea Party might say.

But if we don't pass something by the 18th the markets will collapse anyways.

This is one estimate, and it includes the money coming in from taxes, which won't be enough.

xdate1.jpg
 
There will be an agreement before then, I'm sure. But even if somehow there wasn't I'm sure the WH has been looking options they can take to prevent that happening. I wouldn't worry about it.

Not necessarily, The US brings in a lot of money with taxes each day. That could pay a debt for weeks if we are lucky, But eventuality we will just not have enough. No one knows for sure when that day is, some experts predict early November. But the day will come, despite what the Tea Party might say.

But if we don't pass something by the 18th the markets will collapse anyways.

yeah the stock market would really be interesting on the 18th
 
I'm leaving tuesday for a 3 week visit to the USA, California. Really happy they reopened Grand Canyon, here's hoping the rest of our planned stuff will be open too (Alcatraz, Yosemite, Lassen, etc).
 
There will be an agreement before then, I'm sure. But even if somehow there wasn't I'm sure the WH has been looking options they can take to prevent that happening. I wouldn't worry about it.

The problem is, he might not be able to do anything to stop economic harm. Remember a lot of reaction in financial markets is psychological. The closer we get, the more nervous everyone becomes. I'm sure we will avoid default but even if we do that doesn't mean there won't be repercussions.
 
The basic argument seems to be that if money is not tied down to a specific commodity, it doesn't really MEAN anything, and printing it is only likely to cause inflation if we're maximizing our economic potential and there's nowhere for the excess to go. As inflation is extremely low right now, while the economy continues to recovery quite sluggishly, that might suggest that we have plenty of elbow room to print money - which is more liquid than issuing bonds, a practice that began in an older time and a different system - without really worrying about it inflating anything.

I have no idea if this is true or not, but that's my understanding of the theory, in a nutshell.

I think this is the gist of MMT, but it is wrong in its understanding of macroeconomics, of international trade (balance of payments), and of actual history. It is true that governments don't need to rely on debt (bonds), but that is not to say that they could instead print money as they wish (this has never gone well im history). Banks since the 1600s figured out that they can excert great power on governments by holding their debt, to the tune of financing and instigating both sides of wars. Debt became perpetual, and even though many founding fathers fought against it, debt became perpetual after the civil war.

History shows that altering the money supply is a shit-tastic way of trying to affect the level of employment in the economy. It wasn't even the reason why we got out of the great depression, or why the following decades were so prosperous. This is because the actual demand for money is not just dependant on the supply, nor the level of income. There is a big uncertainty component about the future, liquidity preferences, current debt costs, and levels of borrower/lender risk that shift with the times. Affecting the money supply by printing, ultimately leads to speculative booms and busts (outside of normal inflation/deflation cycles)... and once inflation gets going, no central bank can effectively stop it without major pain.
 
For a really good read on MMT, and pretty much every argument against it being properly shut down, I suggest this monster of a thread. Really an engrossing read:

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20318

MMT is like a 3rd grade level theory about the Y = C + I + G + NX equation, and about a sovereign nation living inside its own planetary bubble. It disregards the use of credit and financial intermediaries in our system, because the theory quickly falls apart. It is a fringe concept, that has no basis in reality (aside from the policies of the last 5 years that have yet to rear the ugly head).
 
In particular, for the aforementioned defense of MMT, start reading at post #8.

The two central claims in MMT is false. A country can default if it's creditors no longer accept its currency as payment, which leads to the second problem, Governments can guarantee supply through printing, but they cannot guarantee value. In extreme circumstances a countries own citizens may reject its Governments currency as credible. In the end, debt is debt is debt. There's just no getting around this.
 
The two central claims in MMT is false. A country can default if it's creditors no longer accept its currency as payment, which leads to the second problem, Governments can guarantee supply through printing, but they cannot guarantee value. In extreme circumstances a countries own citizens may reject its Governments currency as credible. In the end, debt is debt is debt. There's just no getting around this.

Well, yes, there's a reason I identify as a neo-Keynesian rather than as a chartalist; I was merely pointing out the point in that thread in which MMT arguments start being posed. :P
 
Fair enough! I'm a neo-keynesian as well, that's how I was trained.

Fun fact: Keynes never argued that monetary policy is a good tool to attain full employment. Instead, he argued that because of uncertainty, inflation and deflation are both needed, and an integral part of any economy.
 
No, you don't understand the monetary system. You don't understand the velocity of money either, which is why you can't understand why different Government actions result in differing amounts of inflation.

I don't think you are following the conversation well. Nobody said that no government action could ever result in inflation. The assertion was that "printing money" creates inflation. It is wrong, fundamentally wrong. If you think otherwise, you will in fact have to articulate the mechanics by which "printing" money causes inflation. You will also have to explain, of course, what "printed" money is to begin with.

If you believe that there is a difference between the dollars that exist today, and the dollars that the government will "print" in the future, you will have to articulate that difference. US dollars are not convertible into any other commodity. If you present a US dollar to the US government and demand payment, the US government will just give you a different dollar. Of course, most money is represented purely electronically anyway. So in reality they would just adjust the numbers in your bank account down by one, and then up by one. And if you thought you had received something real in that exchange, then I am quite sure you do not understand the monetary system or its implications. Deficit spending is how the US government "prints" fiat money, i.e., increases the net dollar-denominated financial assets in the non-government sector.

You are as bad and ridiculous as any tea partier, completely dug in to your own ideology with nothing to learn from any other person. You fail Socrates definition of the educated man, because the more you seem to know the smaller and simpler your world gets.

Having an empirical understanding of the monetary system as a social construct, and understanding the implications thereof, is not an ideology. Ironically, it is you perpetuating crass ideology. And true to form as a sophist, you've used plenty of words here to say absolutely nothing of substance.

If you have a disagreement with what I have said, please do articulate an actual argument.

MMT is like a 3rd grade level theory about the Y = C + I + G + NX equation, and about a sovereign nation living inside its own planetary bubble. It disregards the use of credit and financial intermediaries in our system, because the theory quickly falls apart. It is a fringe concept, that has no basis in reality (aside from the policies of the last 5 years that have yet to rear the ugly head).

Says the man who doesn't understand basic macroeconomics and thinks that we should revert to a failed gold-standard monetary system because it is less volatile, against all known empirical evidence.

The two central claims in MMT is false. A country can default if it's creditors no longer accept its currency as payment, which leads to the second problem,

Woah, you don't even understand default. A country does not default just because a creditor "no longer accepts its currency." Indeed, a creditor cannot reject payment according to the terms agreed upon. Of course, my entire point is that governments using fiat currency have no need of creditors at all. They don't have to borrow their own fiat currency to spend. Indeed, giving it even a few second's thought, it becomes clear that spending has to precede taxing or borrowing, because until the government spends its fiat currency, there is nothing to tax (or borrow). Consider that, when the US government left the formal gold-standard, it in that instance defaulted on debt (it previously owed a lot of people gold, now it owed them nothing), and "printed" all the money that was then in existence. It has continued to "print" (deficit spend) money ever since. As it must, because a growing population and growing economy need a growing supply of dollars to continue to grow.

Governments can guarantee supply through printing, but they cannot guarantee value.

Of course they can. The government's ability to throw you in jail if you don't obtain its money to pay the taxes it imposes on you is what gives it value. Aside from that, nobody argues that a government can spend as much money as it wants without consequence. So your understanding that MMT is "false" is based on ignorance about what MMT is, which is hardly surprising.

In extreme circumstances a countries own citizens may reject its Governments currency as credible. In the end, debt is debt is debt. There's just no getting around this.

If your argument is that US citizens would reject US dollars if the US government stops selling bonds, you are going to have to articulate reasons why.
 
Wait, how exactly can creditors stop accepting payment in the currency the debt contract was issued in? If I buy a treasury bond, I can't just demand they pay it back in pounds sterling, or strawberries. I can stop buying them, but the ones I've already bought are a contract, and if the currency tanks that's my risk to bear, not the debtor's. Any debts the US has that were issued in US dollars will be paid back with US dollars, and nothing else.
 
Yes, I was serious about selling an entire state full of American citizens to Russia.

Ive been here 6 years. Ive seen lots of posts were way more insane and genuine. I just never know now which is genuine and what is sarcasm/joke man. Hypothetically, I wonder how much we could get lol
 
Says the man who doesn't understand basic macroeconomics and thinks that we should revert to a failed gold-standard monetary system because it is less volatile, against all known empirical evidence.

Sorry to say but I have both history, academics, hard empirical data, and even previous fed chairmen siding with me. What do you have? A silly notion that all that matters is what Americans think of the US dollar because they have to pay taxes. It's a fantasy world.

That you said that the shadow banking system doesn't matter... even when it causes the 2008 recession... don't know how you can be taken seriously after that.

Of course they can. The government's ability to throw you in jail if you don't obtain its money to pay the taxes it imposes on you is what gives it value.

Good luck putting countries and financial institutions in jail... they are the ones assigning the relative value of the dollar. Relative value is all that matters... considering that money is both a medium of exchange AND a store of value (until inflation).
 
Having an empirical understanding of the monetary system as a social construct, and understanding the implications thereof, is not an ideology. Ironically, it is you perpetuating crass ideology. And true to form as a sophist, you've used plenty of words here to say absolutely nothing of substance.

If you have a disagreement with what I have said, please do articulate an actual argument.

Its a system of ideas that exactly aren't empirical. It shares this with Austrian Economics.

Woah, you don't even understand default. A country does not default just because a creditor "no longer accepts its currency." Indeed, a creditor cannot reject payment according to the terms agreed upon. Of course, my entire point is that governments using fiat currency have no need of creditors at all. They don't have to borrow their own fiat currency to spend. Indeed, giving it even a few second's thought, it becomes clear that spending has to precede taxing or borrowing, because until the government spends its fiat currency, there is nothing to tax (or borrow). Consider that, when the US government left the formal gold-standard, it in that instance defaulted on debt (it previously owed a lot of people gold, now it owed them nothing), and "printed" all the money that was then in existence. It has continued to "print" (deficit spend) money ever since. As it must, because a growing population and growing economy need a growing supply of dollars to continue to grow.

They cannot reject payment on issued bonds, but those bonds are renewed as well. This is how the debt is financed, if investors outright rejected payment in US dollars on new bonds (or more likely, demanded extraordinary yields) the results would be disastrous. You realize many countries have to issue bonds in other currencies because of the rates investors demand on those bonds, yes?

A growing economy needs inflation, not deficit spending. We can affect inflation via the cash rate between banks and the fed.

Of course they can. The government's ability to throw you in jail if you don't obtain its money to pay the taxes it imposes on you is what gives it value. Aside from that, nobody argues that a government can spend as much money as it wants without consequence. So your understanding that MMT is "false" is based on ignorance about what MMT is, which is hardly surprising..

The Government can use violence is necessary to impose its currency. How politically stable is this in a currency crisis? How does it force investors in Switzerland to do the same? Of course, it can't. Your view of the US dollar doesn't factor imports, exports or exchange rates at all.

If your argument is that US citizens would reject US dollars if the US government stops selling bonds, you are going to have to articulate reasons why.

US citizens might reject the US dollar in a currency crisis spurred on by the inflation produced by pumping dollars into the economy. Treasuries use bonds because they can buy those bonds back and control the money supply very carefully, as well as bonds being illiquid. With your method you only have taxation, and that's a much, much sloppier means to affect the money supply. Not to mention the effect on the velocity of money this would have.
 
Someone on my facebook is posting that they're stopping Military retired paychecks come November 1st. Do you guys know anything about this?
 
Someone on my facebook is posting that they're stopping Military retired paychecks come November 1st. Do you guys know anything about this?

Not for sure but I have heard November 1st as some big day for the shutdown and/or debt ceiling, so perhaps. Though what I heard was veterans benefits.. if that includes paychecks to military retired I do not know.
 
Wait, how exactly can creditors stop accepting payment in the currency the debt contract was issued in? If I buy a treasury bond, I can't just demand they pay it back in pounds sterling, or strawberries. I can stop buying them, but the ones I've already bought are a contract, and if the currency tanks that's my risk to bear, not the debtor's. Any debts the US has that were issued in US dollars will be paid back with US dollars, and nothing else.

One of the ways I could see this happening is with the threat of a (considerably) greater military might. Given military parity (read:nukes), no such demands could ever be truly imposed. Can`t see that ever being imposed given the current geopolitical landscape, either. Countries going to war over debt in 2013 sounds so... absurd.
 
Sorry to say but I have both history, academics, hard empirical data, and even previous fed chairmen siding with me. What do you have? A silly notion that all that matters is what Americans think of the US dollar because they have to pay taxes. It's a fantasy world.

That you said that the shadow banking system doesn't matter... even when it causes the 2008 recession... don't know how you can be taken seriously after that.

No offense, but in virtually every economics debate you've ever been in on these boards, it's been rather obvious that you've conscripted history and data, cherry-picking only what supports your nigh-conspiratorial worldview and interpreting the rest how you see fit. I can't count how many times I've seen other PoliGAF folks come in and debunk arguments you've made, with "hard empirical data" no less, only to have you come back and either obfuscate the point or simply claim that a chart with a line pointing up is actually a line pointing down. You seem like a nice enough fellow, but that's simply what I've observed.
 
Its a system of ideas that exactly aren't empirical. It shares this with Austrian Economics.

Social constructs can be observed. They are expressed in law and then carried out. That the US uses a fiat monetary system on a floating exchange is an empirical understanding. Do you agree or disagree? Certain implications follow from the use of a fiat monetary system, including that spending must precede taxation and borrowing, and that taxation and borrowing therefore cannot "fund" spending. If borrowing does not fund spending, then the US government has no need of creditors. This should be a quite obvious implication of using a fiat monetary system, really and hardly in need of further articulation.

They cannot reject payment on issued bonds, but those bonds are renewed as well. This is how the debt is financed, if investors outright rejected payment in US dollars on new bonds (or more likely, demanded extraordinary yields) the results would be disastrous.

The debt--you actually mean deficit spending, not debt--is not financed via bond sales. The debt is financed by the US government's fiat currency, which it creates ex nihilo when it spends it by directly crediting and debiting bank accounts (i.e., via keystrokes on a computer). The government sells bonds for the benefit of investors, not for its own benefit. It has no real use for the money that investors give it. Indeed, money in the government's hands effectively ceases to exist. It has no meaning.

The US government does, however, make it appear as though bond sales finance deficit spending. And that's because when the US was on the gold standard, which limited the quantity of money it could create to whatever arbitrary amount of gold it happened to possess, the US really did have to borrow back its own money back in order to deficit spend, because the amount of gold it possessed limited the amount of money it could create by law. That constraint does not exist in a fiat monetary system in which money is not convertible upon demand to any other commodity. Thus, the only constraints on the amount of money the government can create are (or should be) real ones, i.e., how much money should be circulating to optimize economic production?

You realize many countries have to issue bonds in other currencies because of the rates investors demand on those bonds, yes?

They don't have to issue bonds at all! (Except Eurozone countries, and that's because they gave up currency sovereignty.) This is the very point you don't get. Bond sales do not fund governments that use fiat currencies. The governments create the money directly, from nothing.

A growing economy needs inflation, not deficit spending. We can affect inflation via the cash rate between banks and the fed.

I don't even know where to start with this. Deficit spending is how the government adds net financial assets to the non-government sector. It is precisely how the government creates demand pull inflation and staves off deflation. So unless you are suggesting that something like oil shortages are good for the economy because they create inflation, then I think you are in fact saying that a growing economy needs deficit spending. If you don't understand the mechanics of this, I will be happy to explain it, but there is no difference between saying a growing economy needs inflation and a growing economy needs deficit spending. They are one and the same.

Your second sentence is not comprehensible to me and will require further articulation. Monetary policy determines the price of borrowing, but that is about it. And it is dependent upon the government's stock of debt (the accumulation of prior annual deficit spending) to do so. It does not determine the money supply. Only Treasury spending injects net financial assets into the non-government sector. And only taxing (or applying fees) removes net financial assets.

US citizens might reject the US dollar in a currency crisis spurred on by the inflation produced by pumping dollars into the economy. Treasuries use bonds because they can buy those bonds back and control the money supply very carefully, as well as bonds being illiquid. With your method you only have taxation, and that's a much, much sloppier means to affect the money supply. Not to mention the effect on the velocity of money this would have.

This is very backwards. Treasury buys bonds back? Treasury controls the money supply carefully? You really haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. I assume instead of Treasury you mean the Federal Reserve, but the Federal Reserve does not control the money supply (which includes money created by banks). Rather, it determines the price of borrowing, but determining the price of borrowing requires it to give up control over the money supply. The money supply is in fact determined simply by the demand for money. We should also be clear that talking about the "money supply" in this was is not just a discussion of money created by the government but also money created by banks by leveraging the government's money.

So if your rejection of changing laws to allow the Fed to directly credit the Treasury for any deficit spending is premised on your belief that either the Treasury or the Fed control the money supply, think again.
 
A country can default if it's creditors no longer accept its currency as payment, which leads to the second problem, Governments can guarantee supply through printing, but they cannot guarantee value. In extreme circumstances a countries own citizens may reject its Governments currency as credible.

Let's talk about the current situation. Creditors want to accept US government IOUs as payment short-term/long-term as of Oct 13, 2013. Many creditors value treasuries so highly that, according to real yield curves on the US treasury's website, the government is being paid/nearly being paid to hold domestic and foreign assets today. Therefore, the issue here is willingness to pay and not psychological rejection of IOUs. Additionally, the Treasury can guarantee value of its debt obligations with perpetual bonds. The UK has been successfully running deficits and issuing debt for roughly 320 years as far as we know. The US has been around for only 237. Maybe policy makers should take notes on how to run deficits and issue debt instruments.
 
This is very backwards. Treasury buys bonds back? Treasury controls the money supply carefully? You really haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. I assume instead of Treasury you mean the Federal Reserve, but the Federal Reserve does not control the money supply (which includes money created by banks). Rather, it determines the price of borrowing, but determining the price of borrowing requires it to give up control over the money supply. The money supply is in fact determined simply by the demand for money. We should also be clear that talking about the "money supply" in this was is not just a discussion of money created by the government but also money created by banks by leveraging the government's money.

So if your rejection of changing laws to allow the Fed to directly credit the Treasury for any deficit spending is premised on your belief that either the Treasury or the Fed control the money supply, think again.

The fact that you don't even acknowledge Government's issue bonds for debt financing is so baffling I don't even know how to respond.

As for your last paragraph, yes the Fed, i'm not an American. The federal reserve effects the money supply by - buying/selling securities, setting discount rates and setting the reserves for fractional banking. If you don't understand this you don't even have a handle on basic macroeconomic theory, let alone everything else you wrote.
 
I'm going to clarify something here, because I think people are conflating concepts. An entity's creditworthiness is not the same thing as an entity's purchasing power. Creditworthiness has to do with one's perceived risk of not fulfilling promises to pay money. Purchasing power has to do with one's ability to obtain real goods and services available for sale.

Now consider that you own a black box that spits out US dollars that are indecipherable from those issued by the US government. Perfect counterfeits. What happens to your creditworthiness? Well, first, you quickly realize that you don't give a shit, because as long as you have that black box, you will never need to borrow money from anybody because you have an unlimited supply of it. Second, if people know that you have that black box (and for some reason do not bother arresting you for it), then your creditworthiness is always 100%, because people know that unless you make a voluntary choice not to do so, you will never be unable to pay whatever amounts you promise. Lenders might think you are a fool for borrowing money when you have no need to do so, but they certainly won't think you are a credit risk.

But what about purchasing power? This is something you want to protect. You could in theory print so many dollars that your purchasing power in real terms declines. If you print and spend too many dollars too quickly, those dollars become worth less in real terms, and prices will rise as a result. But what we see here is that what is fundamentally important is not simply whether you print dollars, it is whether you are printing too many dollars too quickly. And so the key to appropriate regulation of fiat currency is optimization of how many dollars are being added to the system over time. If you are a currency issuing government, however, and the sole issuer of dollars, it is clear that you must add some amount of dollars over time, because if you do not, then dollars will gain value relative to real goods and services as they become more scarce. This is called deflation, and it is every bit as bad, and even worse, than inflation. So a growing economy and a growing population require a growing money supply, i.e., "printing" money. But one must be sure that the amount of money "printed" is not so much that it causes prices to rise too quickly.

Now, if one wants to talk about how to assess that optimization level (and there is a way), we can do that. But we shouldn't conflate creditworthiness with purchasing power.
 
Woah, how the hell did our media just not talk about this shit at all? This is bullshit.

That would involve the majority of media to:
1. Pay attention.
2. Not play the "Both sides are at fault!" card all the damn time.

You can bet MSNBC has been covering it. FOX probably doesn't even know it happened. And CNN is just saying "Well, it might have happened but they're both being bad."
 
This is very backwards. Treasury buys bonds back? Treasury controls the money supply carefully? You really haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. I assume instead of Treasury you mean the Federal Reserve, but the Federal Reserve does not control the money supply (which includes money created by banks). Rather, it determines the price of borrowing, but determining the price of borrowing requires it to give up control over the money supply. The money supply is in fact determined simply by the demand for money. We should also be clear that talking about the "money supply" in this was is not just a discussion of money created by the government but also money created by banks by leveraging the government's money.

So if your rejection of changing laws to allow the Fed to directly credit the Treasury for any deficit spending is premised on your belief that either the Treasury or the Fed control the money supply, think again.

While I enjoy reading your posts, it sounds more like you're trying to find logical or semantical faults at this point, which dissapoints me as it doesn't feel very constructive.
You're saying that the money supply is determined by the demand of money, and that the FED doesn't control the money supply, but rather control the price of borrowing. It's two approaches to trying to achieve the same goal, as it has been found to be more efficient in the current time.
Obviously controlling money supply directly has been found ineffective as it doesn't necessarily impact the velocity, and what does the money supply help with if it doesn't have any deeper correlation with people spending money? Even from the 30s depression there is significant evidence that many of the measures which were tried by upping the money supply failed, just because it didn't have any effect on the velocity.
I think that arguing whether the FED controls money supply, or interest rates, or whatever you want to say, is purely semantical in this topic, as anyone with an ok understanding of economics understands that they don't just print money to print money, but rather use different tools to "activate" the economy.
...
Now, if one wants to talk about how to assess that optimization level (and there is a way), we can do that. But we shouldn't conflate creditworthiness with purchasing power.

Ok, back in the game? =)
 
No offense, but in virtually every economics debate you've ever been in on these boards, it's been rather obvious that you've conscripted history and data, cherry-picking only what supports your nigh-conspiratorial worldview and interpreting the rest how you see fit. I can't count how many times I've seen other PoliGAF folks come in and debunk arguments you've made, with "hard empirical data" no less, only to have you come back and either obfuscate the point or simply claim that a chart with a line pointing up is actually a line pointing down. You seem like a nice enough fellow, but that's simply what I've observed.

It is not hard for me to "conscript" history or data, because it agrees with me. You have people claiming that printing money doesn't matter... we have centuries of history refuting that. You have people saying that the gold standard was less unstable than the current system... that is a laughable assertion that is easliy disproven (even when they use 0.1% inflation as a denominator to some ratio that doesn't matter). We can go over each instance if you would like clarification. EV for example, relies only on philosophical notions about money and sovereighnty of a nation... and no actual facts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom