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[myca77]

I can't believe that some people are claiming they can't see a difference between those screenshots, even without my glasses on I can see a noticeable difference.

Granted when I'm immersed in a game I rarely notice such issues, it's framerate drops and screen tearing that I notice a lot more, which is why this gen my PC has had more love than the consoles. I do hope that the next gen of consoles can maintain a steady framerate, ideally 60fps or 30fps with good motion blur, and have v-sync enabled. If not I'm probably gonna have to do a PC upgrade and use the PS4 for exclusives/media box (much like my PS3 at the moment).

 

[qa_engineer]

Bingo! And that's what we should be discussing. People are trivialising the problem by focusing on resolution alone. This is why we get pointless discussions about Forxa 5 being in 1080p/60fps, because people are just using resolution alone to prove a point.

By talking about screen resolutions we're indirectly talking about the consoles overall computational ability as well. This in turn becomes a conversation about graphical fidelity in addition to screen resolution. That's at least how I see it,

 

[weekend_warrior]

So you don't remember people saying the PS2 was better for "gameplay" where as the Xbox was better for "graphics, power, (and gaming)" in multiple debates back then?

No. What does "better gameplay" even mean? All I remember is Xbox people saying "More power, better graphics!" because it had no games and that was the only thing they could latch too. Well not no games because Halo and Splinter Cell were quite good. But PS2 had far more games, including GTA, so PS2 owners just brushed off the power difference comments with their own "lol but no games" comments.

 

[UNCMark]

Will you also be ok if PS4 games run at a higher native resolution AND have better physics, lighting, particle effects and etc on top? Because I can guarantee you that 3 years down the line we'll still be having this conversation.

I don't find it hard to believe that people will find a way to be OK with it. As console gamers, we overlook the fact that the PC version is more often than not light years beyond what we're playing. Gameplay trumps graphics. I just don't know why if you had to make the choice, you'd choose the more expensive console that has worse looking third parties unless you absolutely prefer that console's exclusives and eco-system more.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Not sure if cboat thread or dark souls thread.

Who cares? Both kinds are awesome

 

[Kuro]

Screenshots aren't really good for showing off resolution difference. Games in motion look so different when it comes to native vs upscaled.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Apparently some people cannot tell the difference and it's baffling to me. But then my Father swears he cannot tell the difference between standard and HD and even though he's into electronics he still does not have a blu-ray player because of it.

When Blu Ray first came out I tried to show my friend the difference by swapping between Blu Ray and DVD of the same movie and he couldn't tell me which was which so yeah, I know exactly what you mean

 

[eddfromtheriver]

Can I ask: Is resolution and framerate all it would take to prove a game is next gen?

No, but if i have the option i´ll opt for the better looking/performing version of a game, not to mention the console that is sure to have the most technically/visually impressive games this upcoming gen.

Spoiler

PS4

 

[CambriaRising]

Not sure if cboat thread or dark souls thread.

Every thread on gaf is a dark souls thread just waiting to happen.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

By talking about screen resolutions we're indirectly talking about the consoles overall computational ability as well. This in turn becomes a conversation about graphical fidelity in addition to screen resolution. That's at least how I see it,

I know that's the intention but when I go to other sites that don't have so many informed gamers, they always use Forza 5 as an example because they don't understand how much more power it takes to have real time lighting or real time reflections. This is partly the fault of people like us who have narrowed the argument far too much and I feel it's Gaf's duty to inform a wider audience on what they should be expecting from a next gen game.

Perhaps a technical adept poster on Gaf could actually start a thread on this very issue because I'm ignorant of a lot of it myself. 'What you should expect from next gen' would be a decent title.

 

[CambriaRising]

I know that's the intention but when I go to other sights that don't have so many informed gamers, they always use Forza 5 as an example because they don't understand how much more power it takes to have real time lighting or real time reflections. This is partly the fault of people like us who have narrowed the argument far too much and I feel it's Gaf's duty to inform a wider audience on what they should be expecting from a next gen game.

Here is the point that is being made:

If you can't get a game to run at 30fps at 1920x1080 progressive in 2013, there is something very wrong with your design.

 

[jayu26]

I am legally blind, so resolution is the least of my concern (as long as it's HD) next gen lol. New physic engines, framerate, water effects, and gameplay elements matter more to me.

What the...

No, seriously I have no idea how a legally blind person can see new physic engines, framerate, water effects...

 

[Sykotik]

The difference is blatant. It is not negligible. There is so much detail lost in the 900p version. Anyone arguing otherwise should have a well-sighted friend take them to "see" an Optometrist!

 

[op_ivy]

I can't believe that some people are claiming they can't see a difference between those screenshots, even without my glasses on I can see a noticeable difference.

Granted when I'm immersed in a game I rarely notice such issues, it's framerate drops and screen tearing that I notice a lot more, which is why this gen my PC has had more love than the consoles. I do hope that the next gen of consoles can maintain a steady framerate, ideally 60fps or 30fps with good motion blur, and have v-sync enabled. If not I'm probably gonna have to do a PC upgrade and use the PS4 for exclusives/media box (much like my PS3 at the moment).

not sure who you are referring to, but not seeing a difference and not thinking its a significant barrier to enjoyment are two vastly different things.

The difference is blatant. It is not negligible. There is so much detail lost in the 900p version. Anyone arguing otherwise should have a well-sighted friend take them to "see" an Optometrist!

see above.

 

[EMT0]

Here is the point that is being made:

If you can't get a game to run at 30fps at 1920x1080 progressive in 2013, there is something very wrong with your design.

Or overambitious. You thought the PS360 was bad? Wait until late this gen to see how badly devs kill resolutions and framerates in the name of meaningless eye candy.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Here is the point that is being made:

If you can't get a game to run at 30fps at 1920x1080 progressive in 2013, there is something very wrong with your design.

And my answer is 'but Forza 5 runs at 1080p/60fps. What happened to Driveclub!'

Before the respond, understand that this isn't what I would write, it's what everybody writes on most forums when resolution ALONE is discussed. It's not the best way to express the differences in power to people who don't understand.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

What the...


No, seriously I have no idea how a legally blind person can see new physic engines, framerate, water effects...

Legally blind could be several different things. Blind in one eye, etc

 

[andromeduck]

But resolution alone isn't what makes next gen look next gen. This is what I'm trying to point out with these comparisons. It's things like volumetric lighting, soft-body physics, insane particle effects, sub-surface scattering ... etc. If any of those are effected on the X1 even at 900p, THEN we can post pics up to prove a point.

all those effects you list are ALU and ROP tasks

the PS4 has 50% more ALUs and 100% more ROPs

the xbone isn't going to win except perhaps in extreme select cases with a shitton of highly spatially coherent memory patterns like parametric calcs - otherwise the PS4 smacks it silly

there's really no way around this man - you can argue games/art styles but even that's a weak argument as Sony has much more high quality first (and second) party studios most with better legacy than MSFT's

unless microsoft does something crazy this gen will be dominated by the PS4

 

[Sykotik]

see above.

Don't worry. I can.

 

[CLEEK]

Not sure if cboat thread or dark souls thread.

http://whalethen.com/files/share thumbs/51af8f7040066.png

 

[E92 M3]

What the...


No, seriously I have no idea how a legally blind person can see new physic engines, framerate, water effects...

I am near sighted, and without glasses/contacts considered legally blind - even when I am wearing glasses, my vision isn't perfect.

 

[krypt0nian]

I bow before thy buttocks... damn that's not good for the Xbox One camp.

There's a Xbox One camp?

North of the Wall.

 

[Halvie]

720p being the norm on Xbox One would be so incredibly embarrassing and unacceptable. Over the long term that is.

Will be embarrassing on launch day. What sizes do they even sell 720p in anymore? 32 and down? That'll be good for a decade.

Spoiler

preordered xbox one

 

[GribbleGrunger]

all those effects you list are ALU and ROP tasks

the PS4 has 50% more ALUs and 100% more ROPs

the xbone isn't going to win except perhaps in extreme select cases with a shitton of highly spatially coherent memory patterns like parametric calcs - otherwise the PS4 smacks it silly

there's really no way around this man - you can argue games/art styles but even that's a weak argument as Sony has much more high quality first (and second) party studios most with better legacy than MSFT's

unless microsoft does something crazy this gen will be dominated by the PS4

I agree, I just want people to stop obsessing over resolution alone. Start a thread and explain to fools like me what we should expect from next gen!

 

[andromeduck]

I agree, I just want people to stop obsessing over resolution alone. Start a thread and explain to fools like me what we should expect from next gen!

except resolution is a significant manifestation of the computational disparity

it's no coincidence (1080/900)^2 == 1.44

 

[DSN2K]

amazed anyone has trust in first Generation hardware from Microsoft after the 360....those consoles came built with short life expectancy and they knew it.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

except resolution is a significant manifestation of the computational disparity

it's no coincidence (1080/900)^2 == 1.44

Again, I agree! Now explain why it is that Driveclub only runs at 1080p/30fps while Forza 5 runs at 1080p/60fps. I KNOW WHY, but millions of other people don't. This is the sort of information that needs to filter through to the masses.

 

[Chance Hale]

amazed anyone has trust in first Generation hardware from Microsoft after the 360....those consoles came built with short life expectancy and they knew it.

They lost billions and it was a major blow to their reputation, it's doubtful they would let such a thing happen again. Not to mention their hardware released since(ie, Zune HD(RIP ;-, Surface, etc) has all been of premium quality.

 

[Alo81]

Again, I agree! Now explain why it is that Driveclub only runs at 1080p/30fps while Forza 5 runs at 1080p/60fps. I KNOW WHY, but millions of other people don't.

Because Xbox One do graphics more good.

 

[CambriaRising]

And my answer is 'but Forza 5 runs at 1080p/60fps. What happened to Driveclub!'

Before the respond, understand that this isn't what I would write, it's what everybody writes on most forums when resolution ALONE is discussed. It's not the best way to express the differences in power to people who don't understand.

DMC runs at over 250fps at 1080p on my rig, doesn't mean others will.

That would be the gist of my argument. Not all devs are created equal, and not all games are demanding enough to warrant a downgrade.

 

[qa_engineer]

Because Xbox One do graphics more good.

Lol. I more gooder Dan peesfor

 

[StuBurns]

amazed anyone has trust in first Generation hardware from Microsoft after the 360....those consoles came built with short life expectancy and they knew it.

Realistically, even if there is a RROD2 (and I think there is no possible way MS let that happen), how does it hurt the user? They get it replaced for free. Cloud saves exist now. You're not going to lose anything, and it's not going to cost you.

 

[Jack_AG]

Every thread on gaf is a dark souls thread just waiting to happen.

Challenge accepted.

 

[myca77]

not sure who you are referring to, but not seeing a difference and not thinking its a significant barrier to enjoyment are two vastly different things.

A couple of posters were saying they couldn't see a difference in some of those screen shots, which I find to be a little disingenuous.

I don't doubt that having a game render in a lower resolution should take away from ones enjoyment of a game, as I said it's something I don't really notice when I'm engrossed in a game. But the possibility of lower IQ, lesser FX/physics/shadows, un-even frame rate and/or screen tearing, which to all intents an purposes the Xbox one versions of games could have one or more of these issues, are something I personally notice; these issues have taken away from my enjoyment of games in the past (especially the latter two). That's why most multi-plaform games I've played on the PC this gen, even if I've had to double dip.

 

[akachan ningen]

Or overambitious. You thought the PS360 was bad? Wait until late this gen to see how badly devs kill resolutions and framerates in the name of meaningless eye candy.

1080p is eye candy too but it has meaning?

 

[CambriaRising]

Realistically, even if there is a RROD2 (and I think there is no possible way MS let that happen), how does it hurt the user? They get it replaced for free. Cloud saves exist now. You're not going to lose anything, and it's not going to cost you.

It's asinine to think that having to send a console out for repair is not an inconvenience to the consumer. Nobody likes when their shit breaks.

 

[alr1ght]

Realistically, even if there is a RROD2 (and I think there is no possible way MS let that happen), how does it hurt the user? They get it replaced for free. Cloud saves exist now. You're not going to lose anything, and it's not going to cost you.

Tell me when they include a free 3 year warranty with every console.

 

[qream]

Yeah I know it's confirmed as 900p upscaled, but the video footage we've seen has been native 1080p according to pixel counters (bringing the always 900p into disrepute). I haven't seen any current video that has been confirmed as upscaled from 900p.

Games are usually developed on a PC first. They can make it run at whatever resolution they want on the PC, but to get it to run on the xbone hardware, they need to make some decisions as to what gets scaled back.

 

[endresults]

Again, I agree! Now explain why it is that Driveclub only runs at 1080p/30fps while Forza 5 runs at 1080p/60fps. I KNOW WHY, but millions of other people don't. This is the sort of information that needs to filter through to the masses.

I'll bite. Why?

 

[Coxy]

Realistically, even if there is a RROD2 (and I think there is no possible way MS let that happen), how does it hurt the user? They get it replaced for free. Cloud saves exist now. You're not going to lose anything, and it's not going to cost you.

If I have to spend an hour of my time collecting a coffin, putting the system in it, sending it back and collecting the new one, that's my time, worth money. plus however long without a console

I dont think RRoD is fgoing to happen, I think the system will tone down performance to prevent that happening, you'll see drops in resolution and framerate when it gets hot

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Again, I agree! Now explain why it is that Driveclub only runs at 1080p/30fps while Forza 5 runs at 1080p/60fps. I KNOW WHY, but millions of other people don't. This is the sort of information that needs to filter through to the masses.

Big mistake for Drive Club to run at 30fps. Cause no matter how much better it looks, people see how smooth Fora is running and automatically think it looks better. They should sacrifice some effects and hit 60fps imo

 

[StuBurns]

It's asinine to think that having to send a console out for repair is not an inconvenience to the consumer. Nobody likes when their shit breaks.

I didn't say it wasn't inconvenient, it's not ideal, obviously, but if you want an XBO, you presumably want it for the things which are unique to it, exclusive software or the Kinect, certainly not for the more expensive price or worse hardware. If you're so eager to play Dead Rising, or use a Kinect 2, then I don't think having to hand it to a collection guy is such a big deal.

If I have to spend an hour of my time collecting a coffin, putting the system in it, sending it back and collecting the new one, that's my time, worth money. plus however long without a console

I never had a 360 die, but I had a couple of PS3's die, and it was as simple as handing someone a broken console, him handing you the fixed one, and you signing a piece of paper. It was completely painless, and took less time than a piss.

 

[Beerman462]

amazed anyone has trust in first Generation hardware from Microsoft after the 360....those consoles came built with short life expectancy and they knew it.

I still have an old 360 I got in 2007. It RROD'd once and has been fine since, but I'm the exception it seems. I have been thinking about CBOAT's post and I keep coming back to this. The Xbox One Can Tell When It's Overheating, and Adjusts to Fix It It seems MS is really trying to prevent another RROD fiasco, but with the up clocks you have to wonder if this auto down clocking feature maybe happening more than expected.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

North of the Wall.

Hilarious. Wife asked me what I am laughing at because I couldn't stop.

 

[Goku]

The difference is blatant. It is not negligible. There is so much detail lost in the 900p version. Anyone arguing otherwise should have a well-sighted friend take them to "see" an Optometrist!

What you're seeing in that gif is a game rendered in 1080p vs. 900p. The game didn't add any effects to make use of the freed resources due to resolution downgrade. Yerli said that in Ryse, rendering in 900p allowed the to make use of higher quality shaders, doing the overall look of the game good compared to 1080p.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

I'll bite. Why?

Because it has real time lighting, real time reflections, real time shadows and fully polygonal environment, which is why you can have night and day cycles and why it looks closer to photo realism than Forza 5 (although Forza 5 looks GREAT). I'm not technically minded but I can SEE the differences these make quite clearly ... resolution not so much.

This is in danger of getting off topic and I don't really want to pursue the debate using only ONE particular game. All I'm saying is resolution alone can lead to confusion and misdirection and ends up with a circular debate that doesn't inform ignorant folk (myself included) that need to understand what we should demand from next gen.

 

[twobear]

It would be madness for MS to upclock a console that is having similar overheating/RROD issues as the original 360. Like, completely insane.

If they've done that I'd put money on Xbox not lasting the generation.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

I cnta weti til nvo 51ht.

 

[CambriaRising]

I didn't say it wasn't inconvenient, it's not ideal, obviously, but if you want an XBO, you presumably want it for the things which are unique to it, exclusive software or the Kinect, certainly not for the more expensive price or worse hardware. If you're so eager to play Dead Rising, or use a Kinect 2, then I don't think having to hand it to a collection guy is such a big deal.

Sadly, you are right.

 

[viveks86]

Again, I agree! Now explain why it is that Driveclub only runs at 1080p/30fps while Forza 5 runs at 1080p/60fps. I KNOW WHY, but millions of other people don't.

Very true. But I don't think opening a thread to explain this would change anything. Mods will need to control it with an iron fist. I don't think they would, freedom of expression and all. For those truly keen to know, I think Gaf already delivers it through moderately controlled chaos, which is really the only way a diverse and heavily polarized gaming forum can operate.

An educational thread will end up with the same mix of information, mis-information, debates, digressions, personal opinions and ambiguities that people would need to sift through. It would just confuse the people you are referring to.

The best way to disseminate this stuff en masse is through a focused effort by impartial tech websites. Unfortunately, some of them have gone off the rails lately. So I don't know. Seems like a formidable task!