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The dudes from Simplepickup motorboat girls for breast cancer awareness.

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Stet said:
lol
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You still haven't given a very adequate reason. You're essentially saying every one of these women is suspect in doing it because they would feel bad if they didn't. Which you have no basis for. By your logic asking anyone for donation money is bad because youre making them feel guilty for not donating if they don't.
 
Zen_Arcade said:
You still haven't given a very adequate reason. You're essentially saying every one of these women is suspect in doing it because they would feel bad if they didn't. Which you have no basis for. By your logic asking anyone for donation money is bad because youre making them feel guilty for not donating if they don't.
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Nobody in the video is donating money. You don't get the difference still, there's no point.
 
shanshan310 said:
Really man? Guilting someone into charity is basic knowledge. You don't need to get dictionary specifics to tell you that.



I doubt people would call you a prude or harass you if you didn't let them, or threaten to put your prudish reaction on the internet (or imply it by holding up the camera). Even though the guys in this video probably wouldn't do that (I hope) there are many people that would and the fear of public shaming and harassment is very real for a lot of people. Basically, learn to empathise yo.
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How are responses like yours not equally as shameful? Either they refuse, and don't end up on camera so it's hard for the public to call them prudes, or they have a little fun and agree, and then are met with comments about how degraded and objectified they were.

If a woman(or anyone for that matter) simply goes along with something to comply with some pressure, than no one should bare that responsibility other than the willing participant. Also this notion that the consenting women are just victims of coercion is again another form of condescending patronizing that most women would find offensive.
 
CraftySkills said:
How are responses like yours not equally as shameful? Either they refuse, and don't end up on camera so it's hard for the public to call them prudes, or they have a little fun and agree, and then are met with comments about how degraded and objectified they were.

If a woman(or anyone for that matter) simply goes along with something to comply with some pressure, than no one should bare that responsibility other than the willing participant. Also this notion that the consenting women are just victims of coercion is again another form of condescending patronizing that most women would find offensive.
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I am a woman, so is fiction. We aren't doing it to condescend or patronise women, we are doing it to educate people who don't know what sexual objectification is. I find it incredibly insulting that you would misrepresent our arguments and turn it around like we're the ones being offensive to women. I think if I say anymore I will end up getting myself banned, so I will bow out of this one. Sorry.
 
Zen_Arcade said:
It doesn't matter. Either way you're asking people to do something that they are only doing because they would feel guilty if they reject you.
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There is a difference between donating money and performing an action with the promise of money being donated. This is the crux of the argument. This is why incentivized donation exists. I cannot possibly go over this again.
 
Stet said:
There is a difference between donating money and performing an action with the promise of money being donated. This is the crux of the argument. This is why incentivized donation exists. I cannot possibly go over this again.
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At the core of your point there isn't. Your entire argument is based on societal pressure and how people will interpret if a woman says no to being motorboated in exchange for a donation by someone. There is literally no difference between that and actually donating $20, because at the end of both scenarios the guilt comes down to money not being donated.
 
Zen_Arcade said:
At the core of your point there isn't. Your entire argument is based on societal pressure and how people will interpret if a woman says no to being motorboated in exchange for a donation by someone. There is literally no difference between that and actually donating $20, because at the end of both scenarios the guilt comes down to money not being donated.
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My entire argument is about incentivized donation and has been from the start.
 
shanshan310 said:
I am a woman, so is fiction. We aren't doing it to condescend or patronise women, we are doing it to educate people who don't know what sexual objectification is. I find it incredibly insulting that you would misrepresent our arguments and turn it around like we're the ones being offensive to women. I think if I say anymore I will end up getting myself banned, so I will bow out of this one. Sorry.
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I am a man, does it mean I have the right to speak for all men? Of course not, obviously your intentions, I'm sure, aren't to label women as being objectified, degraded, patronized, etc. It doesn't mean many of the women in this video probably wouldn't be offended by some of the responses here.

Painting broad strokes of these women simply being tricked by a man reinforces the same condescending attitude that many women have striven to break free from. I'd like to think the women in the video are strong and independent enough to not simply fall for tricks of coercion by a man, and if not than only they can be held responsible.
 
Stet said:
My entire argument is about incentivized donation and has been from the start.
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And my point is that incentivized donation and regular donation aren't as different as you're making them out to be. They both are trying to convince people to do things they might not usually do for the sake of a good cause.
 
Breast Cancer has the most amount of money donated over any other cancer, and everyone involved with that pink ribbon stuff make too much money on top of it all.


When are we going to actually turn this energy into just CANCER research, why is it all about breasts?


could this be a form of sexism in itself?
 
Zen_Arcade said:
There is no reason you can't say no to someone trying to compel you into doing something.
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It's a very common phenomenom when it comes to women in our society. The main thrust behind criticism a campaign like the OP, is because the institutionalized objectification has very real effects on the dynamics between men and women. Here is just one of the many studies on the subject.

http://www.northeastern.edu/stophiv/docs/RINAH_06_SPS.pdf

Stereotypical views about gender shape expectations about what should occur in interactions between men and women (Fiske, 2004). The social environment is full of cultural stereotypes about dominant men and sexually objectified women, such as those in sexually explicit music (Ward, Hansbrough, & Walker, 2005) and television (Herrett-Skjellum & Allen, 1996). The link between pervasive stereotypical gender expectations and behavior is found in sex scripts, defined as socially shared representations of appropriate behavior in sexual encounters, which serve to guide behavior (Krahe, 2000; Mosher&Tomkins, 1988; Simon & Gagnon, 1986). Women and men with stereotypical views of gender may not be fully aware of ways to behave in a potentially romantic interaction beyond the traditional sexual script.
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The rest of the study is pretty telling.
 
PseudoKirby said:
Breast Cancer has the most amount of money donated over any other cancer, and everyone involved with that pink ribbon stuff make too much money on top of it all.


When are we going to actually turn this energy into just CANCER research, why is it all about breasts?


could this be a form of sexism in itself?
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I dunno, but no one will wear my brown ribbons for prostrate cancer research.

Also: Oh GAF.
 
shanshan310 said:
The implication is not that at all. I'm sick of people in these kind of threads turning this shit around and saying "oh, you must be disagreeing because YOU'RE sexist DUN DUN DUN". We can talk about sexual objectification without offending either sex, I'm certain.
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It's a tough topic. It doesn't help when someone comes in and implies these women couldn't say no because of societal or social guilt. What are we supposed to say at that point? It's so draining just to read these posts as a man that isn't a complete tool. The same people get into formation on either side and sling these "No, I'm right." posts at each other and nothing ever changes. If you feel strongly about it, contact the people responsible for the video. Raise awareness how you see fit if this is wrong to you. I'm not saying a discussion or expressing how you feel about it is wrong but that only lasts maybe 2 posts into a thread like this.
 
Multicultural band of cheeky chappies raise more than $2000 for breast cancer, help to raise awareness and make a chunk of chicks smile in the process. I'm struggling to take issue with this.

I'm sure they were politely declined by more than a few women, but chose not to show any of that for obvious reasons.
 
CraftySkills said:
Painting broad strokes of these women simply being tricked by a man reinforces the same condescending attitude that many women have striven to break free from. I'd like to think the women in the video are strong and independent enough to not simply fall for tricks of coercion by a man, and if not than only they can be held responsible.
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Women have been trying to break free from oppression, not from other women (and men) highlighting the fact that sexual objectification (and yes, self-objectification) are prevalent in our culture and media. Do you actually think this is true?
 
Sanky Panky said:
It's a very common phenomenom when it comes to women in our society. The main thrust behind criticism a campaign like the OP, is because the institutionalized objectification has very real effects on the dynamics between men and women. Here is just one of the many studies on the subject.

http://www.northeastern.edu/stophiv/docs/RINAH_06_SPS.pdf



The rest of the study is pretty telling.
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And the point everyone here is trying to make against your argument is that you have zero idea of whether or not those women are making their own decisions based on society or their own personal choice. Yet you're speaking as if there is no way these women would want to make the decision to do this on their own, completely based outside of that societal pressure.

No one here is saying that there isn't that kind of pressure towards women in society, but when you use it as a blanket to start judging the actions of individuals that's where you lose me. With the mindset you're putting out when are we going to get to a point where it's a possibility that some women actually don't mind actions like these and approach the situation in a relaxed and non threatened manner completely satisfied with their own decisions?
 
what I love with this video, they get to squeeze their boobies too... motherfuckers I have to spend lots of money just to squeeze one pair of boobies.
 
For some reason, I'm not oke with this. I know the women in the vid agreed to beeing motorboated, but something feels wrong. I get the feeling that breast cancer is beeing used by the guys to motorboat, judging by their channel and personalities.
 
Zen_Arcade said:
And the point everyone here is trying to make against your argument is that you have zero idea of whether or not those women are making their own decisions based on society or their own personal choice. Yet you're speaking as if there is no way these women would want to make the decision to do this on their own, completely based outside of that societal pressure.
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My argument from the start is that the creators of the video are sexist asswhipes capitalizing on a very serious issue... not for "awareness" or education (it accomplishes neither), and not to make the issue of breast cancer more palatable for the public to discuss (it is barely good for youtube hits). My point is NOT to blame the women, but to highlight the fact that there is undeniable pressure in such instance to "play along" for women that subject themselves to more traditional (read: sexist) gender roles. That study I linked to directly points to this.

I will say that the one good thing about this video, is that it once again gives us the opportunity to discuss the objectification and commercialization prevalent in anything to do with female sexuality. Comments on the pressure women fall under, are not only a statement of fact (reflected in more body image issues, depression, eating disorders, etc), but should elicit simpathy for bringing awareness to that other issue.
 
Steamlord said:
eyPaAas.png


Beautiful.
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This guy nailed it although he should have said tossing salad instead. I'm kind of sick of prostate cancer or testicular cancer being ignored. Wouldn't it make more sense for the NFL to try to raise more awareness about that sort of thing?
 
The fact that the majority of women in the video are smiling and seem willing to whatever is going on here tells me that I probably don't need to bother taking 30 minutes to make up some reason for why this is wrong.

And as a side note, if I had boobs I would probably laugh during this experience too.
 
Sanky Panky said:
My argument from the start is that the creators of the video are sexist asswhipes capitalizing on a very serious issue... not for "awareness" or education (it accomplishes neither), and not to make the issue of breast cancer more palatable for the public to discuss (it is barely good for youtube hits). My point is NOT to blame the women, but to highlight the fact that there is undeniable pressure in such instance to "play along" for women that subject themselves to more traditional (read: sexist) gender roles. That study I linked to directly points to this.

I will say that the one good thing about this video, is that it once again gives us the opportunity to discuss the objectification and commercialization prevalent in anything to do with female sexuality. Comments on the pressure women fall under, are not only a statement of fact (reflected in more body image issues, depression, eating disorders, etc), but should elicit simpathy for bringing awareness to that other issue.
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Im not going to bother trying to refute your first point because it's your opinion, you're entitled to it and I can see where you're coming from.

As for your second point, do you think the women in the video were in fact playing along? And if so, what point do we need to get to where you will be convinced that the women in the video would be doing it under their own volition and not because they feel the need to conform to the standards that are set within society.
 
And I'm usually not on the side of PC GAF, but on this issue I'm behind them 100%. This seems completely exploitative and they're gaining ad revenue off of views. So if they didn't post it online for everyone to see, for ad revenue, and for the attention I suppose you could convince me that this was somewhat tasteful. But that's not the situation we have here. But I hate every single one of the videos these guys have done because they're about as vacuous and begging for attention that someone could possibly do.
 
Zen_Arcade said:
As for your second point, do you think the women in the video were in fact playing along? And if so, what point do we need to get to where you will be convinced that the women in the video would be doing it under their own volition and not because they feel the need to conform to the standards that are set within society.
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A passive relenting of control (letting some random guy motorboat you) and being Self-sacrificial (sacrificing your privacy and confort for a worthy cause in this case). -- these are attributes of self-objectification.

A self-serving (nothing pleasurable about getting motorboated), autonomous (not by coercion from a stranger) action is the self-empowerment that women have seeked for decades.

This video is definitely not the latter.
 
Sanky Panky said:
Women have been trying to break free from oppression, not from other women (and men) highlighting the fact that sexual objectification (and yes, self-objectification) are prevalent in our culture and media. Do you actually think this is true?
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It was awful of these capable men to walk up to these objects, insert a quarter in their non-decision-making heads and rub their boobies.
 
Sanky Panky said:
My argument from the start is that the creators of the video are sexist asswhipes capitalizing on a very serious issue... not for "awareness" or education (it accomplishes neither), and not to make the issue of breast cancer more palatable for the public to discuss (it is barely good for youtube hits). My point is NOT to blame the women, but to highlight the fact that there is undeniable pressure in such instance to "play along" for women that subject themselves to more traditional (read: sexist) gender roles. That study I linked to directly points to this.

I will say that the one good thing about this video, is that it once again gives us the opportunity to discuss the objectification and commercialization prevalent in anything to do with female sexuality. Comments on the pressure women fall under, are not only a statement of fact (reflected in more body image issues, depression, eating disorders, etc), but should elicit simpathy for bringing awareness to that other issue.
Click to expand...

Men fall under similar scrutiny of societal pressures in an effort to adhere to being "masculine." The issues you outlined are equally reflected in men as well, even more so in certain cases since boys growing up, and men, are often ridiculed for expressing their feelings or often feel neglected when seeking help.

And while it's been brought up many times through this thread, the notion that the consenting women are just "playing along" and are too simple minded to avoid being tricked by men is what I find to be offensive. Are societal pressures placed on both men and women, of course they are, it doesn't mean that anyone else but the individual should be held responsible for their actions however. To do so only diminishes are independence and ability to make our own rational decisions.
 
Sanky Panky said:
A passive relenting of control (letting some random guy motorboat you) and being Self-sacrificial (sacrificing your privacy and confort for a worthy cause in this case). -- these are attributes of self-objectification.

A self-serving (nothing pleasurable about getting motorboated), autonomous (not by coercion from a stranger) action is the self-empowerment that women have seeked for decades.

This video is definitely not the latter.
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But what if those women don't have a problem with the motorboating and don't see it as sacrificing privacy or comfort?
 
Zen_Arcade said:
But what if those women don't have a problem with the motorboating and don't see it as sacrificing privacy or comfort?
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Of course they do. Women do not like any kind of physical contact unless it is from a nice young man with horn rimmed glasses and a Tegan and Sara t-shirt whose sole purpose in life is to rejoice in her empowerment and only touches her after he has signed the waiver she has provided, without being asked to. And even then, he only does so following her clear and verbalized directions.

Since these women were coerced by being asked, this is obviously exploitative. Nobody should enjoy looking at or touching breasts, that is sexist and not in any way natural.
 
CraftySkills said:
Men fall under similar scrutiny of societal pressures in an effort to adhere to being "masculine." The issues you outlined are equally reflected in men as well, even more so in certain cases since boys growing up, and men, are often ridiculed for expressing their feelings or often feel neglected when seeking help.
.
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We should not devolve into a men vs women thing (as it usually happens when talking about violence against women). There should be a sense of urgency in all of us that one in six women will forever carry the burden of having their intimacy violated by force, which can be directly related to a sense of entitlement to women's bodies from the pervassive objectification of it in our culture.

It's not limiting our ability to make rational decisions, but a decision to make educated decisions that wouldn't support this kind of douche-baggery from the OP video (mostly from the audience of the video).
 
LiveFromKyoto said:
Of course they do. Women do not like any kind of physical contact unless it is from a nice young man with horn rimmed glasses and a Tegan and Sara t-shirt whose sole purpose in life is to rejoice in her empowerment and only touches her after he has signed the waiver she has provided, without being asked to. And even then, he only does so following her clear and verbalized directions.

Since these women were coerced by being asked, this is obviously exploitative. Nobody should enjoy looking at or touching breasts, that is sexist and not in any way natural.
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But where is the fedora?
 
chaostrophy said:
Why don't they just donate the money without the motorboating, if they can spare it and they care about the issue?
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Like I said before, this gives them an excuse to post this on youtube, it gives them some ad revenue, and it inflates their egos. You nailed it. People that are viewing this as some sort of selfless gesture are missing the big picture.
 
shanshan310 said:
I am a woman, so is fiction. We aren't doing it to condescend or patronise women, we are doing it to educate people who don't know what sexual objectification is. I find it incredibly insulting that you would misrepresent our arguments and turn it around like we're the ones being offensive to women. I think if I say anymore I will end up getting myself banned, so I will bow out of this one. Sorry.
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This may be one of the most arrogant things I've seen in quite some time. You are essentially trying to take your subjective definition of objectification--loaded with your personal biases and semantic baggage--and applying it as a universal truth that should apply to all women. You're not "educating people who don't know what sexual objectification is"; you're setting up a hierarchical structure where you are positioned, morally, philosophically, and epistemologically, above people who you implicitly believe to not meet your ideal of empowerment.
 
chaostrophy said:
Why don't they just donate the money without the motorboating, if they can spare it and they care about the issue?
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Because it helps raise awareness through a viral video?
Because its a fun way to raise money?
Focusing on the sexuality of boobs isn't something new to breast cancer fundraising/awareness.

Why doesn't the NFL just donate money why do they have to make everyone wear pink?
Why do you force people to walk/run a 5k to raise money? Why can't those people just donate money directly.
 
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