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[mre]

Stop talking and vote, you assholes.

 

[Maxim726X]

But we don't agree on philosophy. I agree that there are plenty of racist Democrats (see Hillaryis44 for example) But that's hardly the same as the issue with the Tea Party. The majority of Tea Partiers when polled, express racist views of the president. The majority believe he is a foreign born muslim. They also show very little understanding at all, of the issues they're obsessed with.

This continued insistence that both parties are equally bad is a fucking embarrassment.

The current Tea-Party-driven GOP is objectively, demonstrably and obviously worse. Any argument to the contrary won't pass any rational sniff test.

Just curious, as I think most of the Baggers are certifiably insane, where are these polls you speak of?

 

[NullPointer]

Or lying under oath. That could have had something to do with it.

Lord knows this country just will not countenance a President that lies...

... about sex.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I don't know, I'm still in the "they get nothing" camp.

That they even THINK they wrangled a concession out of this fiasco really rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Riki]

I don't know, I'm still in the "they get nothing" camp.

That they even THINK they wrangled a concession out of this fiasco really rubs me the wrong way.

They would think that regardless.
Even if all we got was a perfectly clean CR with no "concessions" they would say "See?! We opened the government and saved the country from economic ruin that Obama wanted!"
They don't live in reality. They'll spin anything in their favor, even when they know they're dying.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Man, this is like the ending of the Canada on strike episode

PERFECT analogy lol

 

[Tex117]

work harder dammit. my lowly artist brain cant figureit out, but something has to be done. we had a prop down here in California about gay marriage. it was smeared as literally teaching homosexuality in school without parent consent. those words were no where on the bill. nor did it address teaching. but it was sponsored by the anti-happy coalition. things like that turn my stomach.

we cant pretend that its just education. its on purpose to misinform.

Here are the elements of libel:
1.A false statement of fact about a person or company.
2.Publication of the false statement. Internet defamation typically occurs with a blog post, comment, review or video / audio statement.
3.That the false statement was at least negligently made without reason to believe the statement was factually correct. In certain matters of public concern, actual malice must be proven in addition to falsity. Actual malice can be shown if the person knowingly publishes false statement of fact or at least recklessly does so.
4.Either mental anguish or damages (depending on state law) causally related to the defamation. The false statement must harm the reputation of the person defamed. In certain states, defamation per se allows a person to plead a case without proving specific damages.

So lets take this as a baseline. The first two elements would be easy to meet, but the problem would be on the third and fourth elements. Because this would be "public" actual malice would need to be shown..."Must contain actual doubt as to the statements truth."

Then of course, there is always the issue of Constitutional Standing (that deals with the fourth element). Who is harmed? Who can bring the suit? (Assuming we are talking civil penalties here).

Then there is Fraud, but again, hard to prove for the same reasons.

Roberts in his opinion on the constitutionality of the ACA actually touched on this a little bit saying something to the effect of "the individual mandate was always a tax, never a penalty, you all were lied to, vote them out but don't come looking to the Supreme Court to bail you out of this." (A huge paraphrase, but ya get the jist).

Really, its just sad that we as Americans do not hold ourselves accountable to "spin" or outright lies. If its "our" side that does it, its okay. If its the other guys side, oh hellz no!

I digressed, but my gawd I like where you are headed with that.

 

[Angry Grimace]

My understanding is that the Senate passing a deal isn't even relevant and that its all about the House - why are news outlets acting like some big deal has been brokered?

 

[Blader]

I don't know what Graham is getting at, but there's no fucking way the Republicans do this again in January. All they got out of this debacle was nationwide bad publicity with record-low poll numbers. They can't afford another embarrassment like this at the beginning of an election year.

My understanding is that the Senate passing a deal isn't even relevant and that its all about the House - why are news outlets acting like some big deal has been brokered?

Because Boehner has already said he'll use Dem votes to get the bill passed in the Senate.

 

[Riki]

My understanding is that the Senate passing a deal isn't even relevant and that its all about the House - why are news outlets acting like some big deal has been brokered?

Because Boehner has admitted defeat and if a bill passes the Senate, he'll bring it to a vote in the House where it should pass as well.

 

[richiek]

My understanding is that the Senate passing a deal isn't even relevant and that its all about the House - why are news outlets acting like some big deal has been brokered?

Have you seen the Dow today? Wall St seems pretty confident a deal will pass.

 

[impirius]

The contrast between Reid and McConnell on the floor earlier was pretty striking.

 

[Ether_Snake]

My understanding is that the Senate passing a deal isn't even relevant and that its all about the House - why are news outlets acting like some big deal has been brokered?

Because the bill Boner will bring to the house will be one Democrats will want to vote for, plus some Republicans, enough for it to pass, while the previous ones the Republicans wanted to bring to have the senate agree to was not one Democrats would agree to.

So basically, Republicans are giving in to the Democrats' insistence that they reopen the government, in enough numbers to insure it will pass.

 

[massoluk]

My understanding is that the Senate passing a deal isn't even relevant and that its all about the House - why are news outlets acting like some big deal has been brokered?

If Boehner don't bring this up, boy, he's picking a fight with McConnell and Senate GOP. Safe to say it's done deal now.

 

[White Man]

Hopefully they put just as much effort into Obamacare background checks as they do gun background checks. Oh wait...

 

[Vanillalite]

Deal is semi do not want but it is what we can get so fucking take it.

Dems didn't cave at least, but it sucks at this deal just kicks the can for a couple of months. I hate the idea of a short term deal.

 

[sangreal]

Soooo Death Panels?

nah, it's just a requirement that HHS inspector general certifies that the exchanges are following the original law (verifying eligibility before granting subsidies)

Deal is semi do not want but it is what we can get so fucking take it.

Dems didn't cave at least, but it sucks at this deal just kicks the can for a couple of months. I hate the idea of a short term deal.

debt ceiling is stupid and should be eliminated but the short term CR was necessary to ensure a budget is passed before the next round of sequester cuts

a budget will probably come out of the conference committee anyway, so there won't be more CRs until it expires. We're only in this situation because the House refused to name conferees

 

[Angry Grimace]

Have you seen the Dow today? Wall St seems pretty confident a deal will pass.

Well, I know, but what was preventing the Senate from just passing that bill anyways - wasn't the problem Boehner actually bringing it to a vote?

I was never questioning that Boehner and the establishment GOP were going to cave today - I've been saying that for a week. There's no point in all of this if they gave up before the absolute last minute because they gained nothing by doing so.

 

[KHarvey16]

Well, I know, but what was preventing the Senate from just passing that bill anyways - wasn't the problem Boehner actually bringing it to a vote?

Yes. He's now bringing it to a vote, which is why people are reporting what they're reporting.

 

[sangreal]

Well, I know, but what was preventing the Senate from just passing that bill anyways - wasn't the problem Boehner actually bringing it to a vote?

Yes, Boehner was refusing to bring any bill to the floor that did not have support of majority of Republicans, but he was unable to get majority support for any bill so he had to turn to Democratic votes

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yes. He's now bringing it to a vote, which is why people are reporting what they're reporting.

I didn't know he had already actually done it; the news reports seemed kind of vague on anything beyond the Senate approval of it.

 

[commedieu]

its nice to hear the variety of opinions on Cspan. All in all, sure there are nutters, but a lot fo people are voicing concern.

A lot of these conservative clubs/groups are just saying plain vote NO, or face repercussions.

edit;

Just had an NWO call about Obamacare, fuck it, im bored. Going to call. Will use the name Doug Danger.

 

[sangreal]

I didn't know he had already actually done it; the news reports seemed kind of vague on anything beyond the Senate approval of it.

He hasn't, but word is that he has agreed to put it up for a vote. The only other choice is nothing, he can't pass a bill with just Republican votes

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

Lying about weapons of mass destruction, and then invading a country using an unrelated terrorist attack as moral leverage, whilst killing thousands of poor people who joined the military due to the lack of other options, whilst also killing thousands of innocent civilians, and turning a previously balanced budget into a $1 trillion deficit, with most of that "money" going to your friends in the military-industrial complex isn't an impeachable offence.

Getting your dick sucked in the oval office and lying about it is.

You forgot state-sanctioned torture.

 

[Mengy]

Man, I'm listening to Hannity stream while I'm at work here and holy shit he is on full extremist lunatic mode. He's blaming McCain and the moderate Republican "traitors" for this failure. He's calling for a new political party to be formed. He's forecasting the end of America as we know it. Businesses are going to fail. People are going to plunge into poverty due to Obamacare. President Obama is a little kid throwing a tantrum. Cruz is a savior and Christie is a weakling.


Freakin A, is he always this dramatic? He's acting like a bully who's been smacked down...

 

[KHarvey16]

I didn't know he had already actually done it; the news reports seemed kind of vague on anything beyond the Senate approval of it.

He hasn't actually done it yet but he's agreed to. No one has voted on it yet, not even the senate. It's going to pass.

 

[Angry Grimace]

He hasn't, but word is that he has agreed to put it up for a vote. The only other choice is nothing, he can't pass a bill with just Republican votes

Okay, so I guess my understanding is what I think it was.

So I guess the next question is how does the GOP and Boehner handle a vote on the Senate bill? Do they ensure they have the minimum number of votes so most of the GOP can "safely" vote no and appease the wingnut base?

 

[siddhu33]

You forgot state-sanctioned torture.

It's telling that the bush administration got up to so much shit that I forgot torture...

 

[KHarvey16]

Okay, so I guess my understanding is what I think it was.

So I guess the next question is how does the GOP and Boehner handle a vote on the Senate bill? Do they ensure they have the minimum number of votes so most of the GOP can "safely" vote no and appease the wingnut base?

He is encouraging all house republicans to vote for the bill, but there were already enough willing to do so before he ever agreed to bring it to a vote.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Guardian:

Eesh. Heritage Action, whose opposition to yesterday's House bill scotched that attempt, has come out against the Senate deal too, declaring it a "key vote."

Earlier in the day, Heritage Action, the political arm of the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation, had advised that "everybody understands" that Republicans "would not be able to repeal" Obamacare until 2017.

As House GOP mts at Cap, Heritage Action announces it's against Senate deal, will "key vote" it as part of their ratings

These groups matter to members of Congress because a strong approval rating from them can come with campaign cash and endorsements, and disapproval can threaten to dislodge the member.

But also:

Here's an interest group that is squarely in favor of Congress passing legislation to avoid shooting the economy point-blank with an elephant slug: the US Chamber of Commerce.

The chamber "urges the House and Senate to vote 'Yes'," Reuters reports.

Tea Party, or big businesses?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Well, I know, but what was preventing the Senate from just passing that bill anyways - wasn't the problem Boehner actually bringing it to a vote?

I was never questioning that Boehner and the establishment GOP were going to cave today - I've been saying that for a week. There's no point in all of this if they gave up before the absolute last minute because they gained nothing by doing so.

The vote could have passed two weeks ago, the issue was that Boehner refused to bring it to the floor. It'll easily pass today; 200 democrats+17 republicans will be enough, and I expect at least 30 republicans to vote for it. So the market has nothing to worry about.

Boehner didn't achieve anything. I suppose he can say "hey we tried our best until the last minute" but things went so sour that I doubt it'll matter.

 

[Azure Dream]

He's calling for a new political party to be formed.

I'd be very okay with this. Not because I hate Republicans, but because the party is clearly at least two or three major groups all trying to huddle under the same name, and causing nothing but issues in the process.

Democrats need to split up too, but more likely some of them would just drift into the more "classic Republican" party. Much closer to what the Republican party was like a few decades ago, before it went off the crazy end and became obsessed with acting like it was a sports team that's "gotta stop the other guy".

 

[EatinOlives]

We fought the good fight, we just didn't win

Fuck you, Boner. Picking a "fight" by shutting down the government, putting the economy in peril to protect your sorry excuse for a job and seeing this as "winning/losing". I hope you get your ass kicked to the curb so hard it flies off your hip.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I'd be very okay with this. Not because I hate Republicans, but because the party is clearly at least two or three major groups all trying to huddle under the same name, and causing nothing but issues in the process.

Democrats need to split up too, but more likely some of them would just drift into the more "classic Republican" party. Much closer to what the Republican party was like a few decades ago, before it went off the crazy end and became obsessed with acting like it was a sports team that's "gotta stop the other guy".

Any split within a coalition hurts that coalition in a FPTP system. Go read up on Duvurger's Law.

 

[SillyEskimo]

Man, I'm listening to Hannity stream while I'm at work here and holy shit he is on full extremist lunatic mode. He's blaming McCain and the moderate Republican "traitors" for this failure. He's calling for a new political party to be formed. He's forecasting the end of America as we know it. Businesses are going to fail. People are going to plunge into poverty due to Obamacare. President Obama is a little kid throwing a tantrum. Cruz is a savior and Christie is a weakling.


Freakin A, is he always this dramatic? He's acting like a bully who's been smacked down...

Yes he is always like that. I listened to him last week and I knew the Republicans were really in deep shit when he had so little to talk about. He kept rounding the same bases but had no legs to stand on for an actual argument in favor of what the Republicans were doing. But goddamn he was mad as hell at everything anyway!

I used to listen to him and Rush every single day. Know your enemy.

 

[Tex117]

Yes he is always like that. I listened to him last week and I knew the Republicans were really in deep shit when he had so little to talk about. He kept rounding the same bases but had no legs to stand on for an actual argument in favor of what the Republicans were doing. But goddamn he was mad as hell at everything anyway!

I used to listen to him and Rush every single day. Know your enemy.

Yup,
I never listened to Hannity or Rush, but for 2006-2008 watched Fox News. Its actually amazing to see how far off the rails the far right republicans and Fox has gone.

 

[theprodigy]

Any split within a coalition hurts that coalition in a FPTP system. Go read up on Duvurger's Law.

Republican split=free Democratic House
this is a good outcome

 

[Angry Fork]

Man, I'm listening to Hannity stream while I'm at work here and holy shit he is on full extremist lunatic mode. He's blaming McCain and the moderate Republican "traitors" for this failure. He's calling for a new political party to be formed. He's forecasting the end of America as we know it. Businesses are going to fail. People are going to plunge into poverty due to Obamacare. President Obama is a little kid throwing a tantrum. Cruz is a savior and Christie is a weakling.


Freakin A, is he always this dramatic? He's acting like a bully who's been smacked down...

Anyone know where I can find a link to this when it's put up? Would love to see/hear this.

 

[Tex117]

Sorry, double post

 

[davepoobond]

Man, I'm listening to Hannity stream while I'm at work here and holy shit he is on full extremist lunatic mode. He's blaming McCain and the moderate Republican "traitors" for this failure. He's calling for a new political party to be formed. He's forecasting the end of America as we know it. Businesses are going to fail. People are going to plunge into poverty due to Obamacare. President Obama is a little kid throwing a tantrum. Cruz is a savior and Christie is a weakling.


Freakin A, is he always this dramatic? He's acting like a bully who's been smacked down...

That judge jennine character is pretty bad too

 

[SpeedySwaf]

Any split within a coalition hurts that coalition in a FPTP system. Go read up on Duvurger's Law.

It really depends on how much the TP buys their own bullshit. If they honest-to-God believe that it just takes a "true" conservative to win the people over, I can see them splitting off and running on that faith alone.

 

[Nephtis]

Fuck you, Boner. Picking a "fight" by shutting down the government, putting the economy in peril to protect your sorry excuse for a job and seeing this as "winning/losing". I hope you get your ass kicked to the curb so hard it flies off your hip.

Please don't call him Boner. You see, a boner is upright and impressive.

This guy isn't.

 

[Hawkian]

Is this almost over or what? Am I going to see some actual votes soon?

Man, I'm listening to Hannity stream while I'm at work here and holy shit he is on full extremist lunatic mode. He's blaming McCain and the moderate Republican "traitors" for this failure. He's calling for a new political party to be formed. He's forecasting the end of America as we know it. Businesses are going to fail. People are going to plunge into poverty due to Obamacare. President Obama is a little kid throwing a tantrum. Cruz is a savior and Christie is a weakling.


Freakin A, is he always this dramatic? He's acting like a bully who's been smacked down...

He has been in rare form for the last month or so. Basically quadrupling down on the shutdown and the "hold the line at all costs" and tag-teaming with Rush on how a default would basically not be a big deal.

 

[davepoobond]

Please don't call him Boner. You see, a boner is upright and impressive.

This guy isn't.

But a boner does fuck things and make a mess everywhere if there is no protections in place

 

[XiaNaphryz]

You see, a boner is upright and impressive.

Only if its a decent size.

 

[Maninthemirror]

One of the best articles on the shutdown reasons

Citizens United, McCain-Feingold Fueled Congress' Shutdown Politics

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4108252

 

[Blader]

He has been in rare form for the last month or so. Basically quadrupling down on the shutdown and the "hold the line at all costs" and tag-teaming with Rush on how a default would basically not be a big deal.

Which of course begs the question, if default isn't a big deal, then what they are holding the line for? If default doesn't matter, then there's no "or else!" to GOP demands.

 

[Nephtis]

But a boner does fuck things and make a mess everywhere if there is no protections in place

I would agree with you except all he's done so far is shot blanks. He can't even fuck things up right

Only if its a decent size.

Hahahahaha, I dunno... But that's a discussion for another thread

Really though, have any concrete details leaked out about what's in this "deal"?

 

[batigolalone]

I guess Obama got bigger balls than Boner.

 

[kirblar]

I guess Obama got bigger balls than Boner.

It's a game of chicken that he knows he'll win every time.