-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Xboxone Resolutiongate (Eurogamer)
- Thread starter madmackem
- Start date
Popup
Member
Not from what I see? More than a fair share of 'gamers' are missing the point. Maybe it's denial.
The picture was supposed to demonstrate that resolution is not a general shortfall of the XBox One, it is the performance trade off that the developers decided to take given the 'points' available. You can spend the points however you like, but the point differences are still there.
The developers chose the resolution path to allow the game to run at a higher frame rate. The resolution difference may seem subtle but that difference requires power to achieve. The same devs could have downgraded the PS4's resolution to that of the XBox, freeing up resources to add more effects, creating a different display of the same disparities.
viveks86
Member
Indeed. But you shouldn't consider indie titles as games. They are not :|
mangochutney
Member
ChimpanzeeThat
Member
I just wondered if anyone could help me out, some of this Xbox One stuff is confusing me slightly.
Is the Xbox One capable of doing native 1080p games from a technical standpoint? If so, has Infinity Ward just been lazy with doing the Xbox One version of their new game?
If it isn't, can Microsoft make up for it via this ESRAM or their cloud service?
Am i correct in thinking that the PS4 can do it fairly easily because of the GDDR5 over the DDR3 on Xbox One?
Thanks if you can help. I'm not really too good with the technical side.
Is the Xbox One capable of doing native 1080p games from a technical standpoint? If so, has Infinity Ward just been lazy with doing the Xbox One version of their new game?
If it isn't, can Microsoft make up for it via this ESRAM or their cloud service?
Am i correct in thinking that the PS4 can do it fairly easily because of the GDDR5 over the DDR3 on Xbox One?
Thanks if you can help. I'm not really too good with the technical side.
Forza 5 is native 1080p/60fps at launch.
PS4 will always have a graphical edge over XB1 on multiplat forms, probably 30-50% based on math here, but not by the 100+% on CoD. The gap will get smaller, but there will always be a gap.
The Xbox One can render games at 1080p, just look at Forza 5. The question is how many concessions have been made to hit that resolution. In the case of Forza it doesn't have dynamic lighting and some other features found in other 1080p titles.
Developers can definitely make 1080p titles, they just have to sacrifice some other things to do it.
Edit: BTW, Cloud computing being used to help a console's performance ain't happening for a long time. The latency on that stuff makes it unfeasible for that kind of use.
viveks86
Member
Sword Of Doom
Member
Of course. It's such a strange question to ask "can the Xbox one do 1080p? As if all games are identical
Silly.Mikey
Banned
All games aren't identical but still, it seems to struggle more to get there than its ps4 counterparts.
Yup. It's even stranger when you remember that even some Wii U games are 1080p, the Xbox One's ability to render games in that resolution was never in question. The hot question is whether it can comfortably reach it while employing the features of modern engines.
The gap will get larger if anything thanks to the PS4's GPU compute advantages.
funkystudent
Member
Forza totally has dynamic shadows. I dont know why people keep bringing that up.
I think the compromise for Forza 5 is most of the assets in the game look lifted from Forza 4 with some next gen teaks here and there,
Game still looks nice though. 1080p really helps make the little details pop which is important for those kind of games.
NullPointer
Member
So from reading these ResolutionGate posts I get that the Xbox can't do 1080p with deferred rendering, and all the modern engines use deferred. Is deferred rendering synonymous with dynamic lighting, or does reverting to forward rendering sacrifice other effects too?
I'm not up on my graphics programming lingo, but what I managed to glean was that using deferred allows you to more efficiently deal with a lot more light sources.
Also, tiling gets brought up as something that was done to overcome similar issues on the xbox this gen, and that we might see a similar solution come out at some point. How likely is this? And when do people think we'll see it?
I'm not up on my graphics programming lingo, but what I managed to glean was that using deferred allows you to more efficiently deal with a lot more light sources.
Also, tiling gets brought up as something that was done to overcome similar issues on the xbox this gen, and that we might see a similar solution come out at some point. How likely is this? And when do people think we'll see it?
There are some 1080p/60 launch games on the Xbone, but if you look at them, they all have pretty big graphical concessions to achieve that. No AA (in the case of Forza and Crimson Dragon, not sure about FIFA), basic static lighting (dynamic lighting is one of the major next gen effects that hasn't been possible up until now) and so on.
The 32MB of ESRAM is the absolute minimum to achieve 1080p. Adding AA and/or deferred rendering (needed for dynamic lighting, amongst other things) means that the 32MB isn't enough, so either they are dropped, or the resolution has to be reduced. This will improve over time once devs work out how to implement tiled rendering on the Xbone.
Offloading compute to the cloud will NEVER see improvements in graphics/frame rate/resolution. It can only be used for components that have a high tolerant for latency (AI, match making), but never for things that have to be done each frame.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
I find that kinda sad for them to already have to find solutions for a console that hasn't even launched yet.
edit: I would have delayed this console and bumped the specs.
IIRC, the car shadows are dynamic while the ones on the tracks themselves are prebaked. Contrast that with something like DriveClub that has dynamic lighting.
Yes, the Xbone is capable of native 1080p...there is no question about that...but you have to look deeper than that...
The PS3 and 360 are capable of 1080p....the Wii is capable of 1080p..the question becomes...what sacrifices must you make to get there?
I am confident that the Xbone is NOT capable of matching the PS4 in like for like games at native 1080p...what I mean by this is if you have a multiplat game...running at 1080p on both consoles...you're going to have to make concessions on the Xbone version...
-lower quality textures
-lower frame rate
-less advanced lighting
-less aggressive(maybe no) AA
-lower quality shadows
-less particle effects
Etc...
This is why we are going to see the Xbone running games at lower resolutions...because the devs are going to want to keep the eye candy the same...so you drop resolution and upscale...
I don't think IW is being lazy...they are doing what they can with less powerful, more complicated hardware that has development tools that are less mature...
This will NOT (IMO) be made up for by esRAM or cloud computing...
The esRAM is a bandaid solution to try and make up for the slow memory bandwidth of the DDR3 memory...its also a bottleneck because its not big enough to do everything developers want to do with it...
StealthGoblin
Banned
So this tiled rendering thing, why can't the ps4 do this?
I seem to recall ps4 devkits having a newer version of direct x running on them than the xbox ones.
I'm not technical at all so excuse me if I've made any errors.
I seem to recall ps4 devkits having a newer version of direct x running on them than the xbox ones.
I'm not technical at all so excuse me if I've made any errors.
NullPointer
Member
I don't think it needs to, since the whole expanse of that fast memory is directly available on the PS4, without jumping through hoops. You only have to tile your image when you're forced to break it down into small enough chunks to fit into the Xbox's wee tiny but super fast memory.
If I have that right.
It'll be interesting to see how that pans out. If devs start using GPU compute a lot the visual differences may get smaller between the two versions but the PS4 could have more physics simulation going on in the world.
Pretty sure it can but it's integrated into the XBO API whereas it would need to be programmed by the devs for PS4. XBO is DirectX 11.1 compliant and PS4 is 11.2+ compliant. It's probably not as necessary on PS4 due to the RAM situation.
viveks86
Member
Why do you think PS4 can't do it? It does support tiled rendering AFAIK. It might not be needed for a while, though. The APIs may not be there yet (not sure) but the devs should be free to implement it themselves.
I think that's accurate.
Also, since you brought up the forward vs deferred rendering question, here's a good read, in case you haven't read it already.
http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2011/01/18/forward-vs-deferred-rendering-whywhen-forward-rendering-still-matters/
Dynamic lighting (as in, multiple objects can be light sources and other objects react to that light) is one of the key benefits of deferred rendering.
A frame is rendered by two or three passes. The first pass calculates all the geometry, the final pass does the shading (lighting).
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
Why is there a patch of high resolution road textures following the car around. You can see it clearly when it's in car footage (over the bonnet) ... and it's a square of textures that just ends abruptly in the front. It looks very odd:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maYgydivvSw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maYgydivvSw
eddfromtheriver
Banned
This.
Forza maybe 1080p... but it's not doing anything next gen worthy... the tech in it is sub-par... and jaggies in it are bad... now Ryse does look better, but it runs at 900p. So it makes you second guess XBO's tech chops in the now and most importantly... in the future.
I think Forward+ rendering (a combination of forward and Deferred) is going to become commonplace as this gen goes on. Lots of efficiency benefits to that. RAD's doing it for The Order.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Wow 720p is making me want to vomit.
I'm actually interested to see how much developers use GPU compute. Both consoles can do it as its part of GCN by default, but Cerny revealed to Gamasutra that they requested quite a bit more for the PS4. At the very least we can expect efficiency gains since they can offload a good amount of work off of the weak CPUs in these consoles.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
That has supersampling from 1080p to whatever the size of that gif is. You have to post some screens from the original video without changing resolution if you want anyone to be able to answer that.Are you 100% certain? I've never been sure, and I'm even more confused by their latest video. This must have some AA going on, right?
This video looks like it has no AA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maYgydivvSw at least on the edges that are not completely destroyed by youtube compression.
The PS3 and 360 could do "it". See MegaTextures ala Rage. The DX 11.2 feature is pretty much the same implementation AFAICT.
Deferred rendering is not synonymous with dynamic lighting. It's just that deferred rendering tends to permit you to handle dynamic lights fairly efficiently.
It's not true that the XBO can't do deferred with 1080p. It will probably depend on what you want to do with your deferred model. Destiny uses a deferred model, and it would be able to fit its buffering scheme into ~25MB at 1080p. But Destiny only uses a slim 96 bits per pixel for its G-buffers (hey, gotta fit near-720p into that Xbox 360 eDRAM), while a lot of devs would really like to use 160+ bits per pixel for their next-gen shading. 160bpp will push you right to around 40MB.
BrainZEROX
Member
If I understood correctly, tiling is a work around made necessary because of the small amount of ESRAM on Xbox. It is not needed on PS4 because it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist on Sony's console. No ESRAM, no need to tile.
With that said, if you make use of virtual texturing, you can "tile" on PS4, It would probably even be more efficient than on XB1 because you wouldn't have to stream your data constantly from DDR3 to ESRAM.
Are you 100% certain? I've never been sure, and I'm even more confused by their latest video. This must have some AA going on, right?
A small GIF isn't the best source to see if there's AA!
If they have no implemented AA, it will be a post-process solution like FXAA which doesn't need the ESRAM frame buffer. But the last round of direct feed images I saw definitely had no AA. But that was a couple of weeks ago, so subject to change.
I disagree about GPGPU causing the gap to shrink...the PS4 has 18CU's...the Xbone has 12...
If all CU's are dedicated to rendering graphics that's a big gap...if you start to dedicate CU's for compute (maybe even the 14/4 split that is always talked about)...that still leaves the PS4 with 2 CU's excess for graphics...and thats only if you're not going to dedicate ANY CU's for compute on the Xbone...which would put it at a MASSIVE disadvantage...desvs must at least TRY to match some.of the resources for GPGPU on the Xbone...taking those resources from graphics...
Tiles Resources can be done on the PS4:
RedGamingTech: Xbox One & Playstation 4 - Tiled Resources / Partially Resident Textures Explanation & Details:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fv_DqQw_uk
Sony's powerpoint from GDC Europe 2013 back in August:
http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/gdceurope2013/Presentations/825424RichardStenson.pdf
viveks86
Member
Well here you go. Here's the direct feed of crappy youtube quality. There definitely is some aliasing, but I find it difficult to think there is no AA. I would imagine the IQ would be completely destroyed without it. The cockpit looks smooth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFEdHskMkq4
Well, if you're interested in reading about the benefits/limitations of GPGPU in games, this is a nice read.
NullPointer
Member
This is all good stuff. Thanks.
In my example I was talking about utilizing that on PS4 and not using it much on XBO which could lead to closer visuals but more world simulation on PS4. You also don't really dedicate entire CUs to compute functions, the ACEs fit the processes into places where the GPU isn't doing work. The added ACEs in the PS4 GPU will allow it to do considerably more compute tasks before taking away from visuals since it will be able to search out gaps easier.
Yeah been discussed here a few times, that will leave less space for a frame buffer + X1's GPU apparently only supports 11.1 hardware (can be upgraded to 11.2 software but software only has stage 1 tiled resources) PS4 in comparison has hardware dx11.2 - stage 2 tiled support.
If they can make it work in X1 without too much cost of the frame buffer, it may help them. Need a 16mb target file.
I'm probably out of my depth, so could be wrong, but Tiled Resources (aka partially resident texture) is different from Tiled Rendering.
Tiled Rendering is for when you have a small amount of fast embedded and slower main memory. Like in the 360 and the Xbone. As this doesn't apply to the PS4, it won't be needed.
I understand the concept of fine grain compute...I'm just saying there is just no scenario I see where devs dig into GPGPU that deeply on he PS4 and just abandon it on the Xbone...
viveks86
Member
Thanks! Speaking of RedGamingTech, here is an article & video on the ESRAM topic:
http://www.redgamingtech.com/xbox-one-esram-720p-why-its-causing-a-resolution-bottleneck-analysis/
HawksWinStanley
Member
Sorry, nothing about the hair in the PS4 version looks natural whatsoever. All of the textures in those comparison shots with that specific guy have awful textures on the PS4 version. That doesn't look like something that could be fixed with the sharpness setting on my tv. It looks more like a smudge than hair.
Then lets make this clear...what you're arguing is the Xbone version looks better than the PC version?
Liabe Brave
Member
I think it's possible we may already be seeing it, in Ryse. In any case, tiled rendering isn't necessarily going to close the performance gap with PS4, it could just shift it to other things. Resolution would go up--you're no longer limited to the size of the eSRAM for your buffers--but other things could go down. That's because the extra buffers would have to go in One's main memory, which is vastly slower than either eSRAM or the PS4's memory. So you'd get more pixels, but the shading calculations you can run on each pixel are reduced.
I don't know enough to say what the tradeoffs might actually look like, and in any case there'd be user preference involved. On PC, some folks like higher resolution with fewer effects and some like better effects at the expense of lower resolution.
As for the comparison with the 360's tiled rendering, there's something to keep in mind. On 360, when you had to pull from main memory instead of eDRAM, you dropped from 32 GB/s to 22.4 GB/s bandwidth, a reduction of 30%. On One, using tiled render targets drops you from 109 GB/s to 68 GB/s, a reduction of 37.6%. So tiled rendering actually hits your performance harder on the newer machine.
awesome
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
Hardly anything to say or argue, when you state "if you're in it for the resolution of games, buy a ps4. everything else, x1".