Find one example of a woman who's popular among men and has a face like that orc chick.
Can we now stop spamming this idiotic double standard?
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RPS ambushes Blizzard director for objectification of women in Heroes of the Storm
- Thread starter usea
- Start date
Find one example of a woman who's popular among men and has a face like that orc chick.
Can we now stop spamming this idiotic double standard?
What about a ripped, shirtless character designed off a real life male super model?
Though Shep is closer to what you'd find on the cover of your mom's romance novel, not a heart-throb that younger ladies fawn over. But it's close, so here's a question: do you think it's typical for games to have shirtless male characters that look more like this?
It's not even typical for ME -- 99% of the time, you're fully covered with armor.
You do realize that it's pretty typical to have female characters showing a lot of skin in games, right? Or if they have armor, it highlights their huge boobs and nice ass. It's not some rare exception. Dante is the closest example of a pretty-boy I can think of. Most game characters do not look like Dante. Buff powerhouse characters are MUCH more popular than thin-ish pretty-boys, but pretty-boys are what is popular right now outside of games. The point is -- if males were treated more like females in games, pretty-boy characters would be the norm. They aren't.
Find one example of a woman who's popular among men and has a face like that orc chick.
Can we now stop spamming this idiotic double standard?
You're seriously suggesting this sort of female is a common representation in games? Stop wasting my time.
Jonathan28
Banned
Among the ladies? What? Bieber is popular among teenage girls not women.
Or the for some reason shirtless Kaidan in the hospital
What about a ripped, shirtless character designed off a real life male super model?
Dude, that orc is straight up ugly. Compare him to guys on the cover of romance novels that your mom reads, then. Not even fucking close.
Its funny to see a bunch of dudes trying to point down what constitutes a sexualized male character that appears to "the ladies", Justin Beaver competing against bootleg Hellboy is funny as shit.
Another one...for "the ladies"
Another one...for "the ladies"
Shai-Tan
Banned
I think it's perfectly fine to consider if attire is too revealing but I find it a little annoying when it's taken to the point where we're supposed to be offended by sexual dimorphism. We can discuss double standards in idealization and actual characters women would want to play and look at but don't run it into blank slate inclusiveness where anything that is attractive is somehow an affront to social justice.
And are you seriously suggesting that the male orc is a common representation of males in games? It's funny that not only you argue against your own argument but you're also annoyed by it.
I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue r.e. a "made up double standard". Your straw claim rests upon something I neither said nor implied. Not only that, it can be inferred from your statement that women merely want to look like gorgeous goddesses who play second fiddle to the male characters, only serving as objects of desire to them. See how that works?
It is about the role the character plays, not just their physical appearance. Plus, we are talking about games that are catered specifically to a male audience and the archetypes they embody.
There could easily be games with female protagonists who are idealized and male counterparts who are objectified. But guess what? Those are few and far between because gaming is focused on on the teenage male market.
MagicWithEarvin
Member
They're the Macklemore of games journalism.
I really like this post.
"Ambushes" is a strange way of putting it, the questions do seem to come a little out of nowhere but sudden changes in topic/questions are nothing new in short interviews (especially with PR people there running to a schedule), the only reason it's caused a problem is because the topic happens to make a lot of people uncomfortable. Seemed a valid thing to ask.
The double standard is obvious and real. Good looking female = objectification. Good looking male = male power fantasy.
So the reason this double standard was invented is because the male audience is the majority? Who's fault is that?
RPS is mainstream? I thought the only reason people pay attention to them is because of click-bait stunts like this one.
I didn't bring up the red orc as a counter-example to female sexualization.
But, yes, orcs are pretty damn popular in games and they're almost always male. You don't know what you're talking about.
I find the use of the word ambush so strange in this thread title, this seems like a perfectly reasonable set of questions (and amazingly, follow up questions!) that are important to the interviewer. Isn't this kind of journalism exactly what the community was crying out for over the past 3-6 months where it seemed no games coverage was safe from their wrath?
Yes I realize that the OP (Hi Usea
) doesn't think this was a bad interview, but the word ambush sets the tone and one day I'd like to think of follow up questions as a normal thing in gaming interviews, anything else is just allowing the interviewee to issue a press release.
One day I'm going to collate the 100 interviews where Microsoft tells the interviewer about the world not being ready for their all digital future with fantastical game sharing, and then zero of those 100 interviewers ask even simple follow up questions like "What precisely was game sharing" or "Why can't you keep it for digital purchases".
Yes I realize that the OP (Hi Usea
) doesn't think this was a bad interview, but the word ambush sets the tone and one day I'd like to think of follow up questions as a normal thing in gaming interviews, anything else is just allowing the interviewee to issue a press release.One day I'm going to collate the 100 interviews where Microsoft tells the interviewer about the world not being ready for their all digital future with fantastical game sharing, and then zero of those 100 interviewers ask even simple follow up questions like "What precisely was game sharing" or "Why can't you keep it for digital purchases".
Call me when the vast majority of games have playable overpowered female protagonists. Then we can talk. Until then your claims are null because they don't apply.
You keep overlooking the context. The female characters are objectified in these games which feature overpowered male protagonists. I already explained what the opposite example would be but you keep ignoring context to overgeneralize and muddy the discussion with things like whose fault your "double standard" is.
Also, responding to every post with a vague rhetorical question to something someone hasn't said doesn't help anybody.
And they aren't...especially when talking about games like WoW, which has been brought up a dozen times in this thread. The female characters look the way they do as much for the women who play the game as for the men. Most women in MMOs, at least in my experience, don't want to play the uglier sex/races.
No more unsupported than your claim that 47% of gamers are women. I see people mention this statistic in every thread like this and NEVER, not one time, has anyone been able to prove that it applies to core gaming. Show me any study that shows females make up half of core gamers...please, I'm begging you (or anyone) because frankly I'm sick of seeing this stupid statistic tossed around when it's absolutely fucking rubbish.
First off, it's not teens that are buying the most games, it's 30+ year old men. Second, developers make games geared towards their audience...why is that a problem? That's called good business. There's no evidence that shows that pandering to a female audience would bring in female gamers or is any proof that the game would be a success. Some of you guys continually forget is that these are businesses and they are trying to make a profit in an industry where a single failure can ruin a company.
SneakyStephan
Banned
If we're still talking about rps and blizzard dota, guess what role the character they complain about plays?
Each hero is the hero in a moba, noone plays second fiddle , a moba hero isn't a damsel to be protected or a princess to be saved, it's the badass that works together to kill the other team and destroy their ancient.
It's THE game where a woman can play a female character and feel empowered by the character.
Rps picked the wrong game (and the wrong character especially) and look like fools since they didn't do any research on the game or the character
They should've gone after mass effect or dead or alive if they wanted to use a specific game to make a point.
The comments on this article are hilarious.
If you are white and male you dont have anyone shitting on you with impunity. You are, lets face it, the majority. So you wont see the soul-crushing condescending attitudes of your bosses at work, as you try valiantly to prove yourself when none of your colleagues have to do squat other than their assigned work and show up every day and not fail a drug test. Believe it or not, white people dont have this problem.
They also dont have the problem of never having anyone in popular media to identify with, they automatically get acceptance if theyre reasonably well-dressed and mannered, and dont have assumptions leveled at them like they must be bad at this, theyre white and male, or its not their fault, theyre white and male, they dont know any better, or I wish white male people would stop trying, or stop complaining, so many other people have it worse than you. All disempowering stuff, that no one says to white males EVER.
Thats why youre privileged. Because you never have to deal with this, thats why you dont get it. And you know what, I dont have to put up with this shit either, because Im just as privileged. But at least I have empathy with the people who do have to put up with this shit.
Oh really? White males are the majority? Have you worked in engineering or accounting in Silicon Valley? Ignorance is bliss I guess.
If you are white and male you dont have anyone shitting on you with impunity. You are, lets face it, the majority. So you wont see the soul-crushing condescending attitudes of your bosses at work, as you try valiantly to prove yourself when none of your colleagues have to do squat other than their assigned work and show up every day and not fail a drug test. Believe it or not, white people dont have this problem.
They also dont have the problem of never having anyone in popular media to identify with, they automatically get acceptance if theyre reasonably well-dressed and mannered, and dont have assumptions leveled at them like they must be bad at this, theyre white and male, or its not their fault, theyre white and male, they dont know any better, or I wish white male people would stop trying, or stop complaining, so many other people have it worse than you. All disempowering stuff, that no one says to white males EVER.
Thats why youre privileged. Because you never have to deal with this, thats why you dont get it. And you know what, I dont have to put up with this shit either, because Im just as privileged. But at least I have empathy with the people who do have to put up with this shit.
Oh really? White males are the majority? Have you worked in engineering or accounting in Silicon Valley? Ignorance is bliss I guess.
Thanks mate, I dont like to argue about sexism in videogames because while I understand its important to discuss it, and while I agree with the points made, im tired of reading the same shit again and again and I understand that its still being argued because some people are resistant to accept that there are people out there that feel like things arent doing the right way, but I think anyone on both sides of the argument should ask themselves this questionabout this particular situation:
As a gaming fan, do you find nothing wrong with Browder's comments about not taking a stand on something unless there is some gain to be had?
While not related to the art style questions, I don't think that this:
is a reasonable question at all. It sets the early tone that the interviewer is being a smug, confrontational ass rather than seeking honest answers. There is no need for such a poorly worded question, especially when the Blizzard guy had seemingly been straight forward up until this point. Such a wild theory that Blizzard is a business!
I'd imagine closer to the left than the right.
I like the way guild wars 2 handled sexual dimorphism between the charr male and female.
They didn't add breasts, change the bone structure, or make one half the size of the other. The difference lies in the teeth, horns, nose, and tail, and the result looks clearly feminine, without making it look like some sort of weird half human hybrid.
lol, they picked the wrong game? "It's THE [genre] where a woman can play a female character and feel empowered by the character" was exactly RPS' point!
You can't stop using double stands, it's amazing. I reply to you by practically copying your posts but for the other gender so you get pissed off with your own arguments and when I call you out on it you double down with mental gymnastics. Just because players choose a character doesn't mean it's "male power fantasy", orcs, dwarves and pandaren obviously prove that the argument is terrible.
Shai-Tan
Banned
Well there's surely a distinction between the choice to wear what you want vs criticism of those choices in design of fantasy characters made mostly by men but I do wonder how many who are ostensibly supporting feminism are unconsciously latching on to this issue to satisfy a conservative impulse to control sexuality (imagining social justice will be achieved if we eradicate sexualization from popular culture)
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
More of this, games media. We need to stop excusing sexism and other oppressive shit in the games we love.
Did Browder actually say that? Not taking a stand against other people being oppressed/injured/etc. when there is no gain to be had is a different beast than not taking a stand when some people don't like the artstyle in a game.
Lowlander2
Banned
Okay, I've seen some stupid things said against Macklemore, like how his mere presence is destroying hip hop culture and how if you think he's at all relatabale you're indulging in "white washing" and saying that no one else in the genre is relatable either. Now, these stupid things convinced me to go and actually buy The Heist.
Having listened to The Heist, I refuse to believe your statement is wholly true. There's no way that Macklemore has complete stock in what he says in Same Love and A Wake if he also made White Walls, the most generic cars and girls anthem ever. The guy ain't exactly Nas, is what I'm saying. A better example would be either Kendrick Lamar or Lupe Fiasco.
Okay, proceed.
Sure, older dudes buy games, too, but the focus is on that teen and 20s demographic. And I never said it was a problem for developers to market games to that audience - I merely pointed out it is the case. I also never said that the developers should pander to a female audience, or that it would bring in tons of female gamers. Strawmen, again.
It should be clear from my posts that I wouldn't disagree with the business strategy decisions of how games are made and marketed. I'd say you forget it's possible to understand that simple concept while also pointing out the trends and archetypes in the games. Just because something is "good for business" and makes nice profit doesn't mean it's infallible or impervious to criticism.
These discussions always go to shit because at some point someone says, "But it's good business! Why would they do any differently?" Nobody's arguing against that and it's pointless to bring that up. The point is that business strategy is partially a result of other long-held ideas and trends regarding gender roles in fiction. I don't get how people can't separate the two concepts.
I can't wait to see people try to respond to that hahaha.
Jawmuncher
Member
All I know is I wish more male characters were shirtless.
Seriously you don't get much more badass than fighting baddies with your shirt off.
Hell every time I play MGS3 I always play as shirtless snake.
Oddly enough though when I play my female characters I prefer them to be heavily clothed or armored. Only reason I can guess is because it isn't the norm.
Seriously you don't get much more badass than fighting baddies with your shirt off.
Hell every time I play MGS3 I always play as shirtless snake.
Oddly enough though when I play my female characters I prefer them to be heavily clothed or armored. Only reason I can guess is because it isn't the norm.
Strongly disagree but it might be a cultural thing, I know a lot of Ausssies/Brits who would talk like that without it being in any way uncivil. It's just an entertaining bit of wording that covers a few different areas while asking how Blizzards F2P model will work.
When he is saying he is not running for president he is implying that you only try to be politically correct and inclusive as a kind of compromise in order to gain something. Like this guy, apparently.
Obligatory:
Who typically reads romance novels? Moms. Who typically plays games? Young adults. Different demo/generation, different preferences.
And still, none of those guys have a face like an orc. The red orc was posted because he thought it was an example of sexualizing males, which apparently you agree with.
Obligatory
Oh yea every woman's fantasy is to date a sissy looking batman. I mean no girls find the Christian Bale batman attractive right?
The more I think about I want to elaborate on my thoughts here. These questions are out of line for a a few reasons...
A) He is holding Blizzard to a higher standard than they hold themselves too, which is often unfair. There is no more discussion after he mentions that they are going for a comic book feel. That is an established look and aesthetic, all there is to it. It's the same principle as going to a BBQ joint and preaching about veganism, or taking your food back at a hot dog stand because it's not 3 Michelin star cuisine.
B) Mentioning only the female characters is totally one sided. How about ALL of the characters are objectified? Why can't I play as a short, fat, weak man? I am a thin man so I'm offended by how muscular and scantily clad all the male characters are, right? He's focusing on one thing about the game when the aesthetic is perfectly congruent and universally cartoony.
C) Have respect for people's time and answers. Grilling someone for a "no comment", a plain lie, or a non answer is fine if you're a tough and established journalist but he is being rude here. The look of the game was justified in more than one way by the Blizzard guy, enough is enough.
Forgive the lack of quotes and names I'm on my phone here not a desktop.
A) He is holding Blizzard to a higher standard than they hold themselves too, which is often unfair. There is no more discussion after he mentions that they are going for a comic book feel. That is an established look and aesthetic, all there is to it. It's the same principle as going to a BBQ joint and preaching about veganism, or taking your food back at a hot dog stand because it's not 3 Michelin star cuisine.
B) Mentioning only the female characters is totally one sided. How about ALL of the characters are objectified? Why can't I play as a short, fat, weak man? I am a thin man so I'm offended by how muscular and scantily clad all the male characters are, right? He's focusing on one thing about the game when the aesthetic is perfectly congruent and universally cartoony.
C) Have respect for people's time and answers. Grilling someone for a "no comment", a plain lie, or a non answer is fine if you're a tough and established journalist but he is being rude here. The look of the game was justified in more than one way by the Blizzard guy, enough is enough.
Forgive the lack of quotes and names I'm on my phone here not a desktop.
Lowlander2
Banned
Ehhh. As someone who's cousin actually writes these things, I'm tempted to dispute this. At least in the paranormal romance sector. I imagine older women would be interested in that cowboy one.
What? The average age of the video game consumer is 35!
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Obligatory:
Yep. Not one of Willis best.
My point still stands. Political correctness and "inclusiveness" are not the same thing as taking a stand against opression/injury/etc. If he doesn't feel the need to take a stand in favor of political correctness then I have no problem with him whatsoever. If he wouldn't take a stand against Tiananmen Square then I would have an issue. But that can not be gleaned from what Browder said so I have no problem with what he said.
It literally talks about that in the comic you just quoted
Bullshit.
If you don't think teenage and 20 something women are attracted to muscle clad men, you don't know teenage and 20ish year old women. Have you never seen the fucking CW? Stacked dudes wall to wall, but yeah, I'm absolutely positive they were put there for us guys...lol.
So, can we start having middle-aged bald, fat men as the protagonists in video games now? Because I, as a male, am DISGUSTED by the industry's portrayal of men in video games. It is setting ENTIRELY unrealistic standards for male empowerment. God dammit I want some REALISM in my fantasy games.
Maybe I am missing something. Christian Bale represents the hulk right? Which I am assuming the girl says is not what she finds attractive but instead she thinks is a male power fantasy.
Which I think is bullshit because I can't think of a single woman who wouldn't let Christian Bale do with as he pleases.
Phrozenflame500
Member
While I applaud RPS for not participating in the cooperate fellatio the rest of the industry participates in, they could do it a little more... tactfully.
That entire interview was dripping with passive-aggression, the ending was just when they toed the line a bit too much.
That entire interview was dripping with passive-aggression, the ending was just when they toed the line a bit too much.
MagicWithEarvin
Member
xD
I'm actually not sure if it's a running joke on GAF-Hop, but usually when someone chimes in on Macklemore they'll
First off, I think it's hilarious that you suggest Batman could possibly designed to appeal to females instead of males.
And second, yes women in modern society tend to prefer less macho men:
http://www.thestar.com/life/2007/08/08/pretty_boys_are_what_a_girl_wants.html
http://www.livescience.com/28237-women-on-pill-prefer-less-masculine-men.html
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704100604575145810050665030