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Forza 5: The monetization is even worse than you think.

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Forza 4 gave you rewards and discounts way too easy but this, this is nothing like the original games.

Forza 1 still has some of the best setup ever, free race, car clubs, online lobbies, reasonable race rewards, engine damage by driving it like a boy racer and over revving, night racing on the speedway... forza 2-3-4 were all slow steps back to what was once the best in the series.

Forza 5 should have just been a free title like KI with this kind of sad IAP, removal of free play and rushed shit online.
 
Meh, Forza 5 has a 4.9 user score on metacritic right now, and an 82 aggregate score.. lets compare this to the previous Forza games which ALWAYS got a 90 or higher on metacritic; the lowest user score as 7.5 as well.

Locking cars behind pay walls and pay to cheat does not excite your fans. Not to mention shipping a game with far less content and cars than your last title is not next gen. We should get more, not less.

This is definitely a step down for the series and I don't see them continuing this for Forza 6.
 
Because people live to complain. Being judgmental is a part of human nature, stemming from things like "that animal could probably kill me" to "that branch looks unsafe." Lacking those survival needs, the impulse directs itself to annoying new avenues for us all to enjoy.

So what you're saying is that when people see a situation that is clearly to their detriment they will complain about it?

I'm glad that you agree that this is bullshit and worth complaining about fellow human!
 
What's in it for you?

People are making up delusive comparisons & I prefer to have a discussion where apples are compared to apples?

PS: Never said I like the way they implemented the system, but many posts in this thread are full of hyperbole and not really helpful..
 
So what you're saying is that when people see a situation that is clearly to their detriment they will complain about it?

I'm glad that you agree that this is bullshit and worth complaining about fellow human!
Seriously, this thread is fascinating. Please screw us around more, we deserve it as consumers. The rationalization process is quite disturbing too.
 
Seriously people. Stop whining. It's pay to cheat. The cars aren't any more expensive than in other Forza games using in-game currency. If you don't want to pay to cheat, you don't have to! :D This might be that stupidest thread so far this gen. Talk about hyperbole...

Dat thread whining... If you think its stupid, why are you posting here?

As to the other parts of that comment just read what people have been posting. Plus 'stupidest' isn't a word (couldn't resist :P)
 
Seriously, this thread is fascinating. Please screw us around more, we deserve it as consumers. The rationalization process is quite disturbing too.

Yep, I'm honestly astonished there's so many apologists in this thread. People bitched about the grind in GT5 when it came out, but that was nothing compared to this. I don't remember having to pay 20$ just for the privilege of being able to purchase a Veyron in Forza 4 or GT5.
 
(reposted with transcript of "its optional" goodness)

That's a point I've been trying to make as well. A lot of people in this thread are conflating issues with Forza 5.
Jim Sterling does a nice job explaining some of the issues with such optional microtransactions here.

Jim Sterling said:
The basic point is there's nothing optional about a freemium ecosystem - A freakosystem if you will - even if the payments are technically a choice.

The whole point of free-to-play games is that they fight you.

They are designed to test your patience against the tightness of your wallet.

...

Even if you have an iron will, even if your resolve is not ground down, the point remains that your will and resolve is being tested. You've got a dog in a fight you never asked to have.

Freemium games are by their very nature underhanded and insidious. And just because a purveyor of one tells you they don't have to take your money, I mean, c'mon. You think they don't want your money? You think thats not the point of it being there in the first place? And that they won't do what it takes to get that money?

Playing a freemium game is ostensibly playing a game with the serpents of Eden slithered eternally around your neck, constricting as it whispers sweet temptations in your ear. Thats how this shit works. And you saying its just optional and can be ignored is you playing directly into the hands of it, and even worse, being more susceptible to it because you've convinced yourself this is all a choice and doesn't affect you.

And thats how the worms get in the brain.
 
You could probably play through all of the single player campaigns in the Call of Duty series in fifty hours. And that's for *one* car and you can't buy anything else in that 50 hours.

It would be helpful to have figures about how much time a more typical car in the game would take to unlock. Right now it seems that many posters are assuming that every car in the game takes that much time. That doesn't really help in evaluating of how much grind we are talking about, just saying..
 
50+ hours of playtime or one hundred real dollars to unlock a single car? LOL
but but it is a very very special car. Like the specialiest bestest car around. Be thankful our masters allowed us to unlock this car after only 50 hours of grinding + 60 dollars. I, for one, believe it should be 2000 hours and an extra 100 bucks, minimum.
 
(reposted with transcript of "its optional" goodness)


Jim Sterling does a nice job explaining some of the issues with such optional microtransactions here.

Thanks for that. I've been guilty of complaining that gaming journalists are not bringing attention to this, but here's an example of someone actually paying attention.
 
but but it is a very very special car. Like the specialiest bestest car around. Be thankful our masters allowed us to unlock this car after along 50 hours of grinding + 60 dollars.

See this kind of post is seriously problematic imo. Instead of advancing the issue and getting a clearer picture of how bad the situation is, you ridicule everyone who challenges a point made by the critics. Kinda get's hard to have a civilized and fruitful discussion when people start swinging the broad sword..
 
Any of you guys actually play Forza and understand how long it takes to attain credits or are you just complaining just to complain? It will not take you any longer to afford top tier cars than it was in FM4. If you don't want the DLC don't buy it or don't play the game.
 
Yes, no used market would've meant ABSOLUTELY NO PAID DLC AND MICROTRANSACTIONS in $60 games.

Get real. Games that have absolutely no used market and are always online are filled to the brim with this shit. If you really believed that they would give up this revenue stream I don't even know what to tell you. You are more naive than my 6 yo niece.

It would have meant that people would have more viable options, since games would not be forced to rely on DLC/microtransactions to compensate for used game sales. With no used games, "normal" (non-microtrans) games would be made more often. The idea that publishers dictate what the market is willing to spend money on is the naive view.

You can see it working on Steam and many other PC-based digital platforms, as well as digital platforms on PS3 and 360. There are lots of games that can get by without the microtransaction emphasis, because they're not losing significant revenue to used game sales. Players choose to support those games, voting with their dollars, and more of those types of games get made on those platforms. If you could sell used games on Steam/XBLA/PSN, those kinds of games would not survive.

The mobile (and PC MMO) markets are indeed filled with microtransactions, with no used games. Why? A couple reasons:
1. Oversupply - there are too many games, and f2p is the best way to stand out. (Once everyone is f2p, though, that no longer works...and that is exactly what is happening right now). And if you are f2p, then you need microtransactions.
2. Audience - the mobile audience is not very sophisticated in its gaming tastes, and it will gravitate towards games that are free. This is an audience that would never support $60 games in any form. It's actually much the same principle as with the used game market - make no money off a large portion of the audience (used game buyers, non-paying f2p gamers), and make it up with extra $ from the rest.
 
^ I see Open Source drunk the kool-aid that EA was serving when creating the online pass scheme. Used games effect on games sales is negligible until a couple of weeks after release, by which point they've already sold the majority of the lifetime sales of the game.

It would be helpful to have figures about how much time a more typical car in the game would take to unlock. Right now it seems that many posters are assuming that every car in the game takes that much time. That doesn't really help in evaluating of how much grind we are talking about, just saying..

OK then. An Audi RS 5 Coupe will set you back 110k credits, which by Moronie's estimate would take about ninety minutes. Oh, and it's a B class, and apparently public games are A and S class only. Soz.
 
Dat thread whining... If you think its stupid, why are you posting here?

As to the other parts of that comment just read what people have been posting. Plus 'stupidest' isn't a word (couldn't resist :P)

Thanks for the grammar lesson :) That's the most useful thing I've read here so far ^^
 
Thanks for that. I've been guilty of complaining that gaming journalists are not bringing attention to this, but here's an example of someone actually paying attention.

That feeling of being ignored when I already posted this (the video) a few pages ago :(. Its ok. I'll go back to my corner now.
 
You guys are just to much...they give people the OPTION of paying for a way to access the content faster for those where money is less important then time. If you can still get the stuff by playing the game then what they are doing is simple smart business and good for the consumer.
 
That line of reasoning would be fine... if it weren't for the fact that the game has literally half the content of its immediate predecessor.

That's absolutely inexcusable, in my opinion. All content (especially the cars and tracks that were in the previous game) should be free until the game at least starts to approach how many were in Forza 4. It's shameless and exploitative. "Built from the ground up," is a goddamn joke, especially now that we're seeing how the game really looks.
This is just baseless, dumb bashing. Its not even worth a proper response.

I used your post to make a larger point. What is so hard to get?
Because it wasn't an issue I was contending. Just seemed strange to have as a response to my post.

There doesn't need to be any 'formula' to figure out anything, anyways. Anybody who has played the previous games will be able to figure out what its like simply by knowing the information about how the new game works and how much the cars cost. The only thing that would change this is if the payouts for race winnings have been noticeably reduced, which there is zero evidence of being the case(and trust me, Forza fans would have spoken up about it by now).

That is still the point. You have less stuff to do to earn those cars. Sure, being a rushed launch title might be one reason for the lack of content, but one cannot escape the impression that they tried to get profit out of this downside instead of compensating the player for it.

In addition, the grinding seems to be more excessive, according to what I am reading. I have no problem with setting myself the goal of earning a specific car and taking some time to get it. Nevertheless, getting the F1 cars in GT5 only took me 2-3 days. Getting the Lotus in Forza 5 (at 6.000.000 credits IIRC) seems to be another beast entirely.
You're reading a lot of things from people who don't know anything about Forza, which is a big part of the problem.

I've gone over this before, but the argument is more nuanced than 'the grind is more excessive'. That's such a misleading and simplistic statement and everybody is spreading it around as gospel, with people making all sorts of wrong assumptions based on it.

Just a quick response, since it sounds like you actually play these racing games - expensive cars are not new to Forza. In fact, the maximum price of cars has gone down, as there were some that were in the 10-20,000,000 range in previous games. A select few 'fairly expensive' cars were raised in price, though, obviously an effort to make them go from 'fairly expensive' to 'expensive'. But prices are otherwise roughly similar and mostly affordable.

Earning power isn't that different than before. Race winnings seem pretty much the same. There's no discounts on upgrades anymore. And you cant make a ton of money(but you can get some) by selling things through the Storefront/Auction House anymore. You also don't earn free cars by levelling.

This definitely changes things and adds some to 'the grind', but only in certain ways. Its not this wholescale, 'everything takes longer' thing that many people are taking it to mean.
 
You guys are just to much...they give people the OPTION of paying for a way to access the content faster for those where money is less important then time. If you can still get the stuff by playing the game then what they are doing is simple smart business and good for the consumer.

Do people actually believe this stuff or are they just so invested in the console horse race that they'll happily get screwed by the companies they love?
 
^ I see Open Source drunk the kool-aid that EA was serving when creating the online pass scheme. Used games effect on games sales is negligible until a couple of weeks after release, by which point they've already sold the majority of the lifetime sales of the game.

This is wrong, and also especially wrong when digital is taken into consideration, and even more wrong when you count lifetimes sales as (new + used) rather than (new), because counting only new makes no sense in the context of the argument.
 
You guys are just to much...they give people the OPTION of paying for a way to access the content faster for those where money is less important then time. If you can still get the stuff by playing the game then what they are doing is simple smart business and good for the consumer.

The whole issue with the microtransaction model is not that you can pay for advancement. It's that the company now has a clear incentive to make advancement more difficult and less enjoyable ie. grinding, so as to sell more microtransactions. This is one of the issues people are having with F5.

This seems pretty self-evident.
 
The whole idea of grinding needs to burn in the gates of hell where it came from anyway. The whole idea of grinding came from MMOs where they wanted you to keep playing as to keep your monthly fee going. Any other game is just using it as an excuse to purposeful try and piss you off by causing progression to go at a snails pace.

The idea of having to grind in a racing game is pathetic to say the least.

I agree 100% with this. It's just a stupid gameplay design made for people with no life or a bunch of 13 year olds who do nothing but play videogames.

GT5 just made me hate this beyond what's possible. This was so true that they patched the game several times in order to decrease the level of grinding.

I really wish there were cheat codes to unlock everything on those games for those who only have about 10-15 hours of gaming each week, so every one of those hours have to be fun, not look like double shift at work.

XP points, stars or whatever they make up have no place on a sim racer. The only concept based on score that could be applied would be a driver score, that could go up and down based on how you race. The way they do it with the XP system is just go up by repeating races even if you are a lousy driver. Has absolutely nothing to do with skill, which is what XP would imply.

This shit really needs to go. I'm fine with this on a Need for Speed or Burnout type of game, but not on racing sims.
 
You guys are just to much...they give people the OPTION of paying for a way to access the content faster for those where money is less important then time. If you can still get the stuff by playing the game then what they are doing is simple smart business and good for the consumer.


Its not good for the consumer to have to grind 50 hours to get one stupid car in a 60 dollar game. That is seriously zynga levels f2p bullshit in a flagship microsoft studios title.

They are making their whole payout structure as miserly as possible so it forces people into buying tokens. How are people defending this..... I honestly feel like i am taking crazy pills
 
The Lotus E21 kost:
6.000.000 CR or
10.000 Tk

I have 3 hours played today and have make 220 000 CR, im not a good driver.
220 000 = 3 h
6 000 000 = 80h
Drivatar makes money for you, if you are offline.
I think good player + avatar make 6 000 000 in 50h


where is the problem?

For the sake of reference I looked at my Forza 4 stats.

In almost 300 hours of gameplay (150 hours time driven), I have total winnigs of 25,315,713 CR, 210 cars in the garage worth 92,447,850 CR and in the bank, I have 25,788,356 CR.

Would you take more or less time achieving these values in Forza 5?
 
You guys are just to much...they give people the OPTION of paying for a way to access the content faster for those where money is less important then time. If you can still get the stuff by playing the game then what they are doing is simple smart business and good for the consumer.

I don't want to have to play a game for FIFTY HOURS to get a car that I rightfully deserve when I buy a game for 60 dollars. How is that hard to understand? If it's on the disc then it should be attained in a realistic way without monetized bullshit. This was one of the few games I had an interest in but there's no way I'm gonna deal with this.
 
The whole issue with the microtransaction model is not that you can pay for advancement. It's that the company now has a clear incentive to make advancement more difficult and less enjoyable ie. grinding, so as to sell more microtransactions. This is one of the issues people are having with F5.

This seems pretty self-evident.
You'd think it would be self-evident.

They removed some ways to earn credits and discounts, launched with $50 of day one DLC, and raised the prices of car tokens exponentially.

Progression has direct financial implications once you introduce a system like tokens and you can look to this game to see how things can evolve on that front.

Thin on content, overflowing with premium DLC.

As one poster put it, there's always time for DLC.
 
It's a shame that the best launch game of the Xbox One is riddled with this sickening monetisation scheme behind it.

I was already disappointed that they don't support any third-party wheels, and that there were less tracks than on the previous title, but those types of shortcomings are somewhat expected for a launch title. But these micro-transactions, there's hardly an excuse for that, it's just blatant exploitation and it's clear, at least to me, that the game was balanced to motivate users to purchase credits rather than progress through the game via a career mode after a certain car class is reached.
 
You guys are just to much...they give people the OPTION of paying for a way to access the content faster for those where money is less important then time. If you can still get the stuff by playing the game then what they are doing is simple smart business and good for the consumer.

wow.. i am speachless.
 
Earning power isn't that different than before. Race winnings seem pretty much the same. There's no discounts on upgrades anymore. And you cant make a ton of money(but you can get some) by selling things through the Storefront/Auction House anymore. You also don't earn free cars by levelling.

This definitely changes things and adds some to 'the grind', but only in certain ways. Its not this wholescale, 'everything takes longer' thing that many people are taking it to mean.

How about specific examples then? Because so far everyone who's has posted specific examples has made it seem like the grind has increased. The one guy defending said it would take 50 hours to earn enough cash for the Lotus.

Not to mention the token packs are but one way Turn10 is overly monetizing the game. The other is having multiply Day-one DLC packs.
 
This is horrible. I miss the days before Microsoft entered the game space where post release content was always free to encourage online communities to stay interested, and to continue to promote the game.
 
Tokens have been in the past few Forza games, and I've always simply ignored them.


Any reason I can't ignore them now?


I don't understand the people suggesting that T10 is forcing us to use Tokens. I'm progressing through the career, buying my cars, and upgrading them as I have in every other Forza. What am I missing here?


Oh, and while they're not handing me a bunch of cars as rewards, I'm absolutely building credits faster than I did in F3 and F4. Seems the only thing T10 did was slow down car acquisition a little in career, and boost the prices of the top cars, so you have to choose which car you want, rather than everyone owning them all.

Cause you're slapped in the face with it. The only time you'd even know there was a token system in Forza 4, was when you're buying a car and it gives you credit or token prices. Now you have the same thing, but you also see it when you're upgrading parts, and they constantly remind you to "Press Y to Accelerate" after every race. It's obnoxious and in your face.
 
This is horrible. I miss the days before Microsoft entered the game space where post release content was always free to encourage online communities to stay interested, and to continue to promote the game.

wasn't that on pc? i don't remember post release content before MS entered the console space.
 
For the sake of reference I looked at my Forza 4 stats.

In almost 300 hours of gameplay (150 hours time driven), I have total winnigs of 25,315,713 CR, 210 cars in the garage worth 92,447,850 CR and in the bank, I have 25,788,356 CR.

Would you take more or less time achieving these values in Forza 5?

Well, by my reckoning 26 million CR in winnings will buy you the first 74 cars from this table. So provided the earning rate is the same, you could get roughly a third of the cars in 300 hrs.
 
Guys, before everything gets out of hand...

Credits are not hard to get!!!.

Tokens have been in Forza games before so it's nothing new... Tokens are expensive to encourage people to buy things with in game credits rather then real money but if someone wishes to do so then he's more then welcome. Player doesn't get the cars for getting Driver Levels, cause there aren't as many cars as there were in FM4.

I don't see where is the grinding part coming from... It's a racing game about racing cars, we race, we earn we spent. It's not a fucking grinding. If I look at it this way it looks like I'm grinding my life going to work every day lol

There are lots of things that help you earn more credits:

-Turn as many assists as you comfortable with...
- Increase Driveatar difficulty
- Getting Driver Levels give you extra cash
- Increasing Affinity levels give you % boost of your reward

It's not grinding, it's not hard and it's not painful to earn credits.
 
Ok, and why do you think they've made those changes?

Could it be because they've now added an option to pay for tokens?
Tokens are not new to Forza, for one.

Two, I did not say otherwise. That was not the point of that post.

How about specific examples then? Because so far everyone who's has posted specific examples has made it seem like the grind has increased. The one guy defending said it would take 50 hours to earn enough cash for the Lotus.

Not to mention the token packs are but one way Turn10 is overly monetizing the game. The other is having multiply Day-one DLC packs.
Yes, 50 hours to earn 6,000,000 credits.

And what does that mean to you? What frame of reference do you have to make sense of that figure? What if I told you that in Forza 3, there were cars that cost 20,000,000 credits and took even longer to get?

I'm not defending the microtransactions at all. I've said before its absolutely awful how its implemented in Forza 5. I'm just trying to clear up some misconceptions about how this actually affects the game since its not nearly as simplistic and 'catch all' as people are being led to believe.
 
I'm not especially surprised. This is MS's modus operandi with the Xbone; deliver less and less, and charge you more and and more to get it. It is the most cynically designed console of all time bar none, and perhaps one of the most cynical consumer products ever designed.
 
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