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[Intheflorsh]

Yes guys, you know the true intentions of this "journalist". Nothing he says can be trusted, and all of his opinions must be questioned. Obviously his little quip about "wanting people to feel empowered" is a blatant lie. It makes much more sense that he is a neopuritan moralist that wants to drive back the world into 30s era sexual repression. He is a con, a fool, and probably also a straw man. Fine work, gentlemen.

 

[Acquiescence]

He doesn't have anything to apologize for.

Should've been the first post.

 

[antitrop]

Lets agree to disagree on that

StarCraft: Brood War is still the best real-time strategy game of all time, but I think StarCraft II is also a great game and a worthy sequel.

 

[Mesoian]

Except that's not what the character actually looks like at all in the game itself...

No, it's just what she looks like AFTER AN HOUR.

Come on dude, really? Character creator default clothes is your grand example when almost every piece of official art for females is bikini armor?

 

[notworksafe]

This might win the award for most useless drive-by post I've seen today.

Eh, I just saw this topic over the weekend and figure this one will turn out exactly the same with people bringing up WoW character design even though D Bro has zero to do with that.

Hey, looks like I was right!

 

[Nista]

I think the art directors at Blizzard should be the ones to apologize for over-sexualized female character art, not Dustin Browder.

All you have to do is look at the art exhibit at Blizzcon and it's obvious where it comes from, since most of Samwise and Metzen's old artwork looks like something out of an old school comic book.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Yes guys, you know the true intentions of this "journalist". Nothing he says can be trusted, and all of his opinions must be questioned. Obviously his little quip about "wanting people to feel empowered" is a blatant lie. It makes much more sense that he is a neopuritan moralist that wants to drive back the world into 30s era sexual repression. He is a con, a fool, and probably also a straw man. Fine work, gentlemen.

Sure sounds like a duck.

 

[Purple_Tentacle]

This thread is full of crazy. The RPS question was fair in the original interview, even throwing in a qualifier about Nova:

RPS: You have some interesting alternate outfits for heroes. Roller Derby Nova, especially, caught my eye. On its own, that’s totally fine – just a silly, goofy thing. A one-off. But it got me thinking about how often MOBAs tend to hyper-sexualize female characters to a generally preposterous degree – that is to say, make it the norm, not a one-off at all – and StarCraft’s own, um, interesting focus choices as of late. How are you planning to approach all of that in Heroes?

Given that Kerrigan is basically wearing a zerg thong, it's a fair question about the focus of the character designs compared to other MOBAs.

Browder's response is super classy and exactly what they need to say. It's definitely not about restricting creative freedom; it's asking why that creative freedom is leading to the same oversexed stuff as always.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

You found an example that you think isn't hyper-sexualized - congratulations! This was on row 2 of a google image search for World of Warcraft:

It's a fantasy sword and sorcery computer game. Even if we shame every creator of every cartoon, comic book, video game, etc in every genre for every target demographic over how women are depicted, the last one to change will be fantasy sword and sorcery computer games.

 

[Vlodril]

i dont get people. we cry about journalism and the minute someone asks something other than how awesome is your game we want to crucify them..

 

[antitrop]

i dont get people. we cry about journalism and the minute someone asks something other than how awesome is your game we want to crucify them..

This was "Your game is sexist. How sexist is your game?".

Like that's any better.

 

[Cipherr]

GAF is thousands of people.

If you're baffled by contradicting opinions on a site most noted for being in a constant state of argument, perhaps you should take a step back and really think about what's happening here.

This. Everyone pretending to be surprised that some 50,000 people have differing opinions should really re-evaluate themselves. This isn't that difficult to understand.

We can go round and round on this, but if that's not even what the character looks like then they are they releasing hyper-sexualized marketing material?

There is no round and round, thats Fan Art you are finding in the vast majority of those Google searches and not official Blizzard Art for the most part. You don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about.

i dont get people. we cry about journalism and the minute someone asks something other than how awesome is your game we want to crucify them..

I complain about bad journalism period. Even if its bad journalism wrapped in an important and sensitive issue.

I want journalist who don't purposely wait until they are told that they are short on time, to ask a loaded question they have no interest in the answer to, just to make a scene rather than have a discussion. If he wanted a genuine back and forth on this subject, he wouldn't have held it until he knew there was no time left. I can separate bullshit from legitimate journalism. Being a dickhead in an interview the way this guy was doesn't encourage nor even give us a CHANCE at a valuable exchange on this subject.

That's ridiculous and should not be celebrated.

 

[TatteredHat]

Given that Kerrigan is basically wearing a zerg thong, it's a fair question about the focus of the character designs compared to other MOBAs.

Browder's response is super classy and exactly what they need to say. It's definitely not about restricting creative freedom; it's asking why that creative freedom is leading to the same oversexed stuff as always.

I don't know about DOTA2, but LoL (and apparently Smite) is filled with sexualized female characters, it's nothing new in the MOBA genre.

 

[Steaks]

While I think the RPS guy did push a little too much opinion into the interview, the question itself was perfectly fine in a vacuum and the answer Browder offered wasn't very good. He could have definitely been fine with just re clarifying his position since he was caught off guard instead of apologizing.

I don't understand why people are removing Browder of fault because they disagree with the opinion of the interviewer. If a Republican offered a bad response on MSNBC, or a Democrat the same on Fox News during an interview, they'd still be at fault for offering a horrendous answer, even if the questions are a little skewed.

 

[Mesoian]

I don't know about DOTA2, but LoL (and apparently Smite) is filled with sexualized female characters, it's nothing new in the MOBA genre.

Which is why this is a good discussion to have.

When all parties, not just someone who's making a game in the genre that isn't even out yet, are present and have time to think about their talking points.

Not with 2 minutes left in an interview that was supposed to be about how the game was coming along.

 

[antitrop]

While I think the RPS guy did push a little too much opinion into the interview, the question itself was perfectly fine in a vacuum and the answer Browder offered wasn't very good. He could have definitely been fine with just re clarifying his position since he was caught off guard instead of apologizing.

I don't understand why people are removing Browder of fault because they disagree with the opinion of the interviewer. If a Republican offered a bad response on MSNBC, or a Democrat the same on Fox News during an interview, they'd still be at fault for offering a horrendous answer, even if the questions are a little skewed.

Yup, Browder answered a shitty question with a shitty answer, they should both apologize and move forward, considering this a learning experience.

At least one of them already has...

 

[Cipherr]

I don't understand why people are removing Browder of fault because they disagree with the opinion of the interviewer.

We aren't. A stupid question (if you could even call it that, it was more of a statement) was responded to with a stupid answer. Honestly they should both apologize.

And its not the interviewers opinion anyone disagrees with. Its the lack of professionalism, and using an important issue for clickbaity nonsense instead of seeking a real meaningful dialogue.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

He should make them even more sluttier.

~awaits cosplay~

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

i dont get people. we cry about journalism and the minute someone asks something other than how awesome is your game we want to crucify them..

You don't get GAF. There are thousands of people with different opinions here. There's nothing contradictory or confusing about some people wanting one thing and others wanting another.

 

[Zinthar]

We can go round and round on this, but if that's not even what the character looks like then they are they releasing hyper-sexualized marketing material?

I don't know, and frankly I don't even see the marketing art as an issue because the female & male of every race in the game are caricatures. Both sexes of night elf are supposed to be tall and cut, for instance (and as a result the night elf male concept art is pretty sexy as well). Both sexes of orc are supposed to look like brutes. The tauren are just... cows. They all fit a design theme, but it's not one of rampant hyper-sexualization.

And in any event, it's a tenuous leap of logic to assume that some instances of sexy character models are disempowering players.

 

[TatteredHat]

Which is why this is a good discussion to have.

When all parties, not just someone who's making a game in the genre that isn't even out yet, are present and have time to think about their talking points.

Not with 2 minutes left in an interview that was supposed to be about how the game was coming along.

I can only agree with the points you've made, I think that it's a shame that this serious issue is devolved for the sake of making quick jabs at developers rather than trying to have a proper dialogue about it.

 

[goldsoundz]

His words kept GAF busy for a few days. Oh wow, I've just been notified that League of Legends and Dota 2 (and nearly every other game) also portray women in a sexual manner. Raise your pitchforks! This cannot be tolerated! Praise be to RPS for pressing developers on the real issues facing video games.

 

[Cymbal Head]

Gaffers: "We want interviewers to start asking the tough questions...about graphics and stuff. Not about gaming as a cultural medium. I mean, they're just games, guys."

I see this whole affair (so far) as a net positive. When a journalist brings up a legitimate concern shared by members of the gaming community (even if he's a bit ham-handed about it), it's healthy and productive for the developer to take that feedback and consider it seriously. Not to dismiss it out of hand as Browder did in the original interview. I'm glad he's made this statement, and I hope he's true to his word.

 

[erawsd]

I just don't understand the controversy here. There was nothing wrong with the RPS questions and there definately nothing wrong with Browders response. Neither side has anything to apologise for.

 

[ANDS]

People idolize their favorite game developers / athletes / movie stars and don't like the see them bullied by the gotcha journalism of the evil press.

Oh please. Several people have given well reasoned responses to why this was a less than honest interview - you can dismiss them as being irrelevant and instead focus on this "Oh my gawd. . .you guys are such inconsistent hero worshippers!", but don't pretend an attempt hasn't been made to offer a legit explanation.

As someone already mentioned, the journalist wasn't asking a question, they were lecturing after Browder gave an answer they didn't like. Browder had no interest in being drug into the "objectification of women. . ." trap that seems to be popping up all over the place in the last year or so, and good on him for that. I wouldn't either.

 

[Mesoian]

I don't know, and frankly I don't even see the marketing art as an issue because the female & male of every race in the game are caricatures. Both sexes of night elf are supposed to be tall and cut, for instance (and as a result the night elf male concept art is pretty sexy as well). Both sexes of orc are supposed to look like brutes. The tauren are just... cows. They all fit a design theme, but it's not one of rampant hyper-sexualization.

And in any event, it's a tenuous leap of logic to assume that some instances of sexy character models are disempowering players.

It's not, but it's a longer discussion than "Blizzard has sexy marketing bits". Blizzard is just as guilty of it as any other developer out there, but even if Blizzard alone decided to spent more time making outfits that aren't little more than bikinis and brought really impressive costume design to every game they have both on the market and coming out, it would still be a problem because they'd be the only ones.

So as a quick rebuttle to your comment...find me the WOW official art where the guys are half naked. It will be harder than you think.

Gaffers: "We want interviewers to start asking the tough questions...about graphics and stuff. Not about gaming as a cultural medium. I mean, they're just games, guys."

I see this whole affair (so far) as a net positive. When a journalist brings up a legitimate concern shared by members of the gaming community (even if he's a bit ham-handed about it), it's healthy and productive for the developer to take that feedback and consider it seriously. Not to dismiss it out of hand as Browder did in the original interview. I'm glad he's made this statement, and I hope he's true to his word.

Waiting for someone better to come along and do it properly, just like with Anita Sarkeseen.

 

[docbon]

Except that's not what the character actually looks like at all in the game itself...

counter point:

All I know is.

lol

Posting single screenshots to prove or disprove gender bias in blizzard games is meaningless. What matters is the trend. Are women presented in a variety of different styles, or are they overwhelmingly limited to boob plate and chain bikini?

 

[Zinthar]

No, it's just what she looks like AFTER AN HOUR.

Come on dude, really? Character creator default clothes is your grand example when almost every piece of official art for females is bikini armor?

Are you kidding me? The vast majority of the armor sets are NOT bikini armor.

 

[Moral Panic]

This was "Your game is sexist. How sexist is your game?".

Like that's any better.

Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

You have some interesting alternate outfits for heroes. Roller Derby Nova, especially, caught my eye. On its own, that’s totally fine – just a silly, goofy thing. A one-off. But it got me thinking about how often MOBAs tend to hyper-sexualize female characters to a generally preposterous degree – that is to say, make it the norm, not a one-off at all – and StarCraft’s own, um, interesting focus choices as of late. How are you planning to approach all of that in Heroes?

There is a clear focus on giving the guy a pedestal in order for him to talk freely about how his game is approaching the issue.

 

[Zornack]

So as a quick rebuttle to your comment...find me the WOW official art where the guys are half naked. It will be harder than you think.

 

[Ogimachi]

This is one of the worst posts I've read in a while and pretty intellectually dishonest if you seriously think this is even in the same ball park as what actually happened.

Nathan Grayson is the one being intellectually dishonest.
He's already made up his mind about it, and considers that "female characters are often hyper-sexualized to a preposterous degree in MOBA games" is a fact and even refers to Starcraft in a midly ironic way.

Now that's intellectually dishonest in a debate. One side is setting the rules and conclusions -i.e. the proper depiction of women in MOBA games- before any discussion takes place, automatically placing the failure to acknowledge those facts as a position at odds with the what's supposedly right. That's begging the question, or circular reasoning, a form of fallacy.
Browder answers explaining that Blizzard is simply going for cool looks and says that Nathan Grayson's feedback is "very fair feedback". Grayson goes on to give a lecture about how comic books often handle it poorly as well in an attempt to show Browder that his comparison proves his point.
Then, Grayson is arrogant again and even defines what MOBA games are all about, and at this point Browder leaves the discussion due to time constraints, but he should've ended the interview right after the second time the journalist pressed on the issue in this manner.

If this is "genuine journalism", I sure as hell don't want any of it.

 

[okayfrog]

He should make them even more sluttier.

~awaits cosplay~

Japanese developers truly are the best.

 

[Zacxx201]

Still waiting on RPS to apologize to Browder...

 

[IdreamofHIME]

He doesn't have anything to apologize for.

Agreed, but if an apology calms the outrage brigade then it's worth it.

 

[Steaks]

Are you kidding me? The vast majority of the armor sets are NOT bikini armor.

Just point out all the male bikini armor in WoW and call it even, then.

 

[Mesoian]

counter point:



Posting single screenshots to prove or disprove gender bias in blizzard games is meaningless. What matters is the trend. Are women presented in a variety of different styles, or are they overwhelmingly limited to boob plate and chain bikini?

Are you kidding me? The vast majority of the armor sets are NOT bikini armor.

You got beat to the punch on that one mate.

Still waiting on RPS to apologize to Browder...

They won't. They've already written a follow up talking about how disappointed they are in the outcome of the interview.

 

[Glass Shark]

It's a fantasy sword and sorcery computer game.

I've seen the "fantasy" argument a lot around this discussion. Why is it okay for that particular genre to be continually demeaning to women without us being able to question it?

 

[ANDS]

Just point out all the male bikini armor in WoW and call it even, then.

Why would a rabbit drive a car?

 

[Mesoian]

I've seen the "fantasy" argument a lot around this discussion. Why is it okay for that particular genre to be continually demeaning to women without us being able to question it?

It's not.

 

[Khezu]

counter point:



Posting single screenshots to prove or disprove gender bias in blizzard games is meaningless. What matters is the trend. Are women presented in a variety of different styles, or are they overwhelmingly limited to boob plate and chain bikini?

There are very few chain mail bikinis in WoW, or anything really that sexy. Just a few pieces here and there from vanilla WoW from 9 years ago. The majority of armor leaves very little skin for either female or male.

If anything, they need to reintroduce more sexy looking armor to add some variety for transmog.

 

[Vlodril]

You don't get GAF. There are thousands of people with different opinions here. There's nothing contradictory or confusing about some people wanting one thing and others wanting another.

Hey you don't have to tell me that. just in every thread about the subject so far we have been as unanimous as we ever are. We keep striving to make the journalist ask more important questions. Hell forget about important. All the questions most journalist ask are the same things included in the companies PR. That's why we have such homogenized articles everywhere.

I am not even taking position about this particular question i am just saying we need to move on from the oh no someone asked/said something bad about my favorite company stuff.

 

[Nicktals]

The RPS dude should apologize for being sexist. He offered no context or facts towards her attitude, dialogue, motivations, or personality in the games. He based his assertion on sexism solely on how she looked, which to me seems rather, well, sexist. If the females are strong, go toe to toe with the males, and aren't looked down on in any way, why in the fuck can't they have physical characteristics that some in society might view as 'appealing'? I'm sure some of the males do!

Sexist jerk.

EDIT: Also, I'll add that I'm not sure when we decided that in order to feel empowered by a character we have to look like them. Hell, I think i'd feel a lot less empowered if every protagonist had to be balding, approaching their 30s with a beer gut and mediocre muscle tone, with occasional severe anxiety.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I've seen the "fantasy" argument a lot around this discussion. Why is it okay for that particular genre to be continually demeaning to women without us being able to question it?

Not that I'm agreeing with it being continually demeaning to women, but to your point:

Because it's escapism. It is designed and sold to meet the expectations of the fantasies of the people who buy this stuff.

 

[Glass Shark]

Not that I'm agreeing with it being continually demeaning to women, but to your point:

Because it's escapism. It is designed and sold to meet the expectations of the fantasies of the people who buy this stuff.

Escapism is a fair argument for why the genre is the way it is, but that doesn't make it immune to criticism.

 

[Mesoian]

Hmm, fair play.

Though I wish the half naked men weren't giant monster things.

 

[mnemovore]

The RPS dude should apologize for being sexist. He offered no context or facts towards her attitude, dialogue, motivations, or personality in the games. He based his assertion on sexism solely on how she looked, which to me seems rather, well, sexist. If the females are strong, go toe to toe with the males, and aren't looked down on in any way, why in the fuck can't they have physical characteristics that some in society might view as 'appealing'? I'm sure some of the males do!

Sexist jerk.

Poe's law right here.

 

[Zornack]

Hmm, fair play.

Though I wish the half naked men weren't giant monster things.

Malfurion (the dude with bird wings and metal claws) is a total stud.

 

[David H Wong]

The RPS dude should apologize for being sexist. He offered no context or facts towards her attitude, dialogue, motivations, or personality in the games. He based his assertion on sexism solely on how she looked, which to me seems rather, well, sexist. If the females are strong, go toe to toe with the males, and aren't looked down on in any way, why in the fuck can't they have physical characteristics that some in society might view as 'appealing'? I'm sure some of the males do!

Sexist jerk.

I think this makes good sense, if you pretend you are completely unfamiliar with the concept of female objectification, or why women find it demeaning. So if you've steadfastly insisted on never, ever reading a single piece ever written on the subject, ever in your life, and blocked your ears every time it was discussed in your presence.

 

[Mesoian]

Malfurion (the dude with bird wings and metal claws) is a total stud.

Yeah, but he's still a giant monster thing.

He looks 25 feet tall with wings and antlers. He is a pretty good example of a male power fantasy, but...still a giant monster thing.

There's nothing inherently wrong with it though, and I feel like that's what we have to be careful to not forget here. The individual examples aren't the problem, it's the trend that perforates the entire industry. Using WOW as an example, even if Malfurion isn't your thing as a dude, there are still plenty of other styles and types of male protagonist that you can choose to emulate. If you're female, those choices are DRAMATICALLY lower. And that generally stems at the designers table. Men drawing men for men and men drawing women for men.

Again, as someone who isn't an artist, it's difficult for me to talk about, but an open table forum for this stuff would be much appreciated, and we're not going to get that with hackneyed, borderline malicious interviews like this RPS one.

 

[Cipherr]

Hey you don't have to tell me that. just in every thread about the subject so far we have been as unanimous as we ever are. We keep striving to make the journalist ask more important questions. Hell forget about important. All the questions most journalist ask are the same things included in the companies PR. That's why we have such homogenized articles everywhere.

I am not even taking position about this particular question i am just saying we need to move on from the oh no someone asked/said something bad about my favorite company stuff.

Then I think you aren't clearly understanding what people are asking for. Its not enough to just ask different questions. Framing them properly matters also, as well as your intent.

Don't wait until you are told theres less than 2 minutes left to ask a question that would easily take 5 or more to address in any indepth fashion.

Ask a question, don't preach, the reader isn't reading the interview for your sermon, we want to hear from the person you are talking to for the most part.

Take a Xanax or something before asking anything if need be, but don't go charging into the interview with an attitude exuding this "I'm gonna get him" vibe. That's some childish bullshit that noone but yourself is interested in.


He didn't need to ask PR safe questions or warn Browder, all he needed to do was genuinely seek answers to these questions rather than go in with the intent of making himself feel better. If every interviewer from now on handles these questions in the same ridiculous fashion RPS did with this one, we will NEVER get any dialogue on this issue worth a damn, EVER. And while they may feel good about themselves for that nonsense, it would pretty much grind the awareness for the issue to a halt.

Yeah, but he's still a giant monster thing.

He looks 25 feet tall with wings and antlers. He is a pretty good example of a male power fantasy, but...still a giant monster thing.

How does height matter? Illidan is the same way and normal height anyway. And why is 'fantasy/escapism' a reason to dismiss it when its a male all of a sudden?