3 White college students file racial discrimination complaint against professor
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Steve Youngblood
Member
Forgive my interjection, but might I suggest that we move past arguing about whether or not we should or shouldn't be familiar with the notion of words having a racist connotation? For what it's worth, I would suggest that "uppity" having racist overtures should be somewhat common knowledge. However, I don't know if I'd go so far as to assert that its usage is ubiquitously racist. Given that, I'm not sure this is an argument worth having.
Fenderputty
Banned
Why post this? You're not usually so caustic. As if you've never been ignorant before.
There should be a list of English terms with bad racial history behind them. As someone with English as a third language, those connotations are not at all obvious when seen in innocuous contexts, and I feel it's always assumed they are. I mean, I've never seen "chip on your shoulder" connected to racism before today.
BloodMoney
Banned
negative reviews are racist, obviously.
UltimaPooh
Member
It's derogatory. Obviously putting it with other racist terms can make it racist but it can also be used to degrade a sex. "Like Uppity Woman shut your mouth and make me a sandwich"
Steve Youngblood
Member
This is a contentious enough topic as is without this sort of petty sniping. Try harder to contribute before posting again.
Byakuya769
Member
No one ever said that.
Devolution
Member
I'm sorry I didn't respond pleasantly to a poster who does this consistently.
Fenderputty
Banned
You encapsulated everyone who was ignorant about that word with your comment. Not just Zoe.
Especially college.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Folks, I'm going to drop the "friendly suggestion" facade and state more directly that we need to keep this civil and avoid personal attacks.
Deified Data
Banned
Uppity has always had racial connotations.
Chip on the shoulder...I've never heard this one used in a racial sense, and I don't think most people have either.
Chip on the shoulder...I've never heard this one used in a racial sense, and I don't think most people have either.
Would it still be alright if we discussed in general the idea of locally applicable slurs? Or is that a discussion for another time? It's really interesting to me, as I've honestly haven't heard any of the words in this thread used in racial contexts, nor have I had any previous knowledge of the relation to racial contexts. But if this thread is already hitting too many notes as it is, I don't want to make it even more hectic.
While education is often a very good tool to combat ignorance, it can also be exhausting repeating the same shit to the same people over and over again.
There are certain people who don't want to be educated and will come charging into thread like this and claim that black people are using the "race card" or they look for racism in everything. They will argue semantics or post a some false equivalency to as proof that racism is no longer an issue.
It becomes hard to differentiate between those who truly want to have an open and intelligent conversation about these things and those who think black people should their whining.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Well, the discussion has veered primarily into being a racial discussion for some time. So, though some of us might prefer concentrating on other aspects of the story as opposed to it just being a proxy argument about racism (particularly stumpokapow who is very interested in the debate about academia and the responsibility of the institution/instructors/students therein), I'm not trying to shut down inevitable turns a thread might take. But we'll lock this thread before it just becomes users bickering about something this inconsequential (i.e. whether people should or shouldn't know the connotations of words). It's simply not an argument worth having.
Fair enough, hopefully we can keep it from turning into something that banal for a while longer.
For people who are familiar with the uppity/shoulder chip terms, do you guys think this is something that is found in Canada? I'm thinking that's maybe why I've sincerely never found them to be used racially. Also, do you guys think they're the sort of phrases that could offend people even if used in innocent contexts? For example, 'that's so gay' or 'stop being such a faggot', even when not applied to homosexuality, I find are wildly offensive and inappropriate, so I do my best to dissuade people I know from using the terms (luckily it's not really something I have to worry about often). Does the shoulder chip and uppityness fall under the same umbrella? Or is it more like cunt in the U.K. vs cunt in north america?
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Re: stump's post, while I do agree that framing Intro courses in terms of a professor's area of interest/expertise is not uncommon, I would argue that such tends to be detrimental, most of the time. The entire purpose of an intro course is to give students a high-level overview of the field they're studying, allowing them to discover potential areas of interest (and perhaps even specialty).
Conciliator
Banned
I'd have to know more/have been there to really have an educated opinion about this. I don't necessarily disagree with the basic premise she said as her self-defense but you'd just have to be there. It is definitely easy to imagine 3 young white males without a lot of perspective taking discussion of privilege and institutional racism the wrong way.
It depends. In philosophy, "history of philosophy" courses are where you tend to get a high-level overview of What Has Gone Before. Intro courses are often an introduction to doing philosophy. It's pretty common for courses to focus on a few contemporary issues, or to not have a single "intro to philosophy" course and instead have courses like "intro to philosophy of religion". I imagine that a lot of humanities intro courses are similar - it's not about getting a big-picture view of the field but about getting your feet wet in terms of actually participating in the field.
The Incarnation
Member
I wouldn't know about Canada.
Uppity is just downright offensive, never heard it used in the UK personally though.
As for chip on your shoulder, generally used by people 40 plus here in the UK, if at all these days.
It's like when a black person is arguing and then suddenly without changing loudness or tone they're being aggressive. And when they continue to press their point they have a chip on their shoulder.
It's the whole one rule for them and another rule for us thing.
Just type in on Google Diana Abbot and chip on her shoulder. British black mp. That should give you a good example.
As a general rule, use the language as you've been taught, be polite and a decent human being, and if you put a foot wrong people will most likely try to gently steer you straight.
Er. In real life, that is.
As far as internet discussions, if you seem to have put your foot in it with something you didn't realize had racial connotations, just mention that it's your third language and you intended no harm, and any reasonable person should be satisfied with that (if they aren't, they probably aren't reasonable, and your best bet is to simply drop the conversation, without any parting salvos). The real trick is to not get defensive when someone makes incorrect assumptions about you based on your language choices. Which is hard, I know.
Fenderputty
Banned
What needs to be seen though? Is institutional racism real and a problem. The answer is yes to both. Unless she was discussing this 90% of the time and it took away from the class, I don't think it should be an issue.
This is pretty off topic for this thread but have you ever tried to be polite? It might help your different crusades a bit more than your attitude here (and everywhere).
I'm pretty sure I once saw you enter a thread about China to bemoan it's shitty culture of honour killings or some such nonsense. Not everyone is familiar with every minute cultural detail of every country (or even core cultural tenants of world civilizations like you demonstrate yourself), no need to get self-righteous about it.
Yes it is the same. When it's said to a woman it's derogatory and it's racist when said to a black person.
Google it and see a few examples of it. Don't google "uppity nigger" though... that was... wow.
I've gotten that before. I spoke to someone over the phone and when I met them in person the pulled that shit out. It pretty much meant "I didn't expect you to be black!"
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
lol really? It's been in the news as recently as 2011 when Rush called Michelle Obama uppity..
and in 2008 when a senator called Obama uppity...
The word has racial roots because the first recorded usage of it was from the song Uncle Remus..
Here's another article on the subject with some more in-depth perspective. Some excerpts:
From the survey mentioned above:
Conciliator
Banned
Well, you can still present it in a way that's over-the-top or aggressive. When we're talking about how people present something what's on paper is only so much. Ya kinda have to be there. We're on the same side though, we probably shouldn't argue.
Shit, growing up, being "well spoken" was a common compliment that I received from everyone from teachers during parent/teacher conferences, reports on tests, strangers I interacted with in various places like jobs or social gatherings. It happens. And it's fricking obnoxious and insulting. But, hey, I grin and bare it, because if I let my irritation show, or comment on it, I'm just trying to "see racism where it doesn't exist!" or somehow becoming "aggressive."
Being a black male in America is almost like when you had to attend some kind of serious event, or go to church, or anything where you're told to sit your ass down and behave, only that, instead of being able to be yourself as soon as you leave the church/event, etc, you can't! 24/7, you have to be on your best behavior, lest you "scare people or make them uncomfortable." It's just so much fun!
...
Fenderputty
Banned
This was a point I had not considered. Though I hope you don't think I was trying to argue. Just joining the thread!
There isn't something intrinsically mysterious or racist about "chip on your shoulder"
BUT- And It think this speaks for itself, when you apply it to a black person in the context of he or she speaking out on racial issues, it shifts the blame to the victim, and marginalizes the person's perceived problems. Its like telling a black person talking about racial issues to stop making mountains out of molehills.
From the survey mentioned above:
My take from that graph is that both groups downplay the prejudiced the other experiences.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
you know I never really thought about that. I will say anyone is well spoken if I think they carry themselves well and are intelligent no matter who or what race they are. I never really gave thought to any racial connotations so I guess I should be a little more careful next time?
Fenderputty
Banned
Same here again. Lol
But I can see how this could be used poorly.
EX:
Whenever it has been said to me, it's said with a bit of surprise. As if they were expecting me to speak in some sort of urban vernacular.
I don't think its conscious racism but being shocked because I don't fit into their preconceived notion of what a black person should be is incredibly insulting.
Everyone who has said to me has been someone I have encountered during work and I have never said anything. I bite my tongue and move on... the strange thing is, I wouldn't put up with that in my personal life but since it's for work I have to take it... it's a very strange feeling.
DanteGhost
Member
He didn't say that. He was offering an anecdote "It's like people hating on me for winning the lottery or something."
You don't even what? Know how to read?
Fenderputty
Banned
Or understand analogies. Even if he said "being born white is like winning the lottery" in a less anecdotal way, he would still be implying that being born white gives him certain social benefits.
I don't see why that's offensive though. For the most part it's true, even if unfair, and the reason why we're having this thread in the first place.
Yeah, I should have used analogy.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Stories like this suck because either way there isn't any way for us to know the truth until a true unbias investigation is done or we have a video undoctored in the situation.
Some people in classes can be fucking annoying, combative with the teacher not allowing them to teach at all, and bothersome for the rest of the students.
On the other hand this could have been a teacher that was bringing this up every single class. Most professors I had would have taken the question and had a round table open discussion about the subject instead of shutting down what was said and telling them if they have a problem with it to go to legal affairs. It's a college, most of my professors would have loved to had a discussion like this in the middle of a class.
Some people in classes can be fucking annoying, combative with the teacher not allowing them to teach at all, and bothersome for the rest of the students.
On the other hand this could have been a teacher that was bringing this up every single class. Most professors I had would have taken the question and had a round table open discussion about the subject instead of shutting down what was said and telling them if they have a problem with it to go to legal affairs. It's a college, most of my professors would have loved to had a discussion like this in the middle of a class.
"Clean cut" has some pretty fucked up implications, too.
Yeah, pretty much. I know the feeling. Brofist?...probably not...
That tone of surprise is the worst part. It's not that I feel those people are racist, it's just that their view of black people, in particular black males, has clearly been influenced by, well, centuries of bad PR for black males. The fact that I don't talk in slang (and never have; my mother didn't let me and my sisters talk slang; although the middle oldest sister does nowadays. lol), that I'm not some kid who grew up on the streets, and that I'm talented in various ways like art, literature, etc, just blows their fucking minds.
But I just grin and continue to perform my duties above and beyond, because I know the moment I slip up, it's a "Yup, I knew it," sort of situation. It's a frustrating, cynical worldview to have, but it has played itself out that way over and over again, in my own life, and in the lives of my family that I can't help myself.
I certainly don't resent white people. And I'm certainly not trying to make anybody feel guilty about anything, as that's on them how they deal with what I have to say, but I do want to be heard. I want all people that have to experience these sorts of things and discrimination to be heard, whether they be white, black, asian, middle eastern, male, female, etc. People shouldn't be marginalized and dismissed. And just because some people may not be familiar with things like certain words having a racial history or implications, or certain discriminatory experiences shared by many, many minorities and women, doesn't mean that those things are "isolated incidents," and "not as big a deal."
I swear, sometimes I'd much rather be called a straight up "nigger" than have to listen to the denial of some people concerning racism (and sexism), in this country (I can only speak from the American perspective, as I admit to being relatively ignorant of some of the things going on in other countries. I know a bit, but I'm certainly no scholar on it).
EDIT: I also don't understand "white guilt." I don't think anybody should feel guilty for who they are, or what they are. While I can certainly appreciate the sentiment of a white person feeling bad, for what minorities have to put up with due to things like structural and institutional racism, and empathizing, I don't set out to make people feel guilty about it. I personally wouldn't want to feel guilty about being born into a race, which none of us have control over. The thing is, blacks have been made to feel pretty damn shitty about being born black, here in this country, for a few hundred years, and, surprise surprise, that has had a rather negative effect on not only the worldwide perception of blacks, but within the black community as a whole. Talk about self esteem issues! While I don't particularly take pride in being black just for being black, I do take pride in what, as a culture, we have accomplished and overcome, in spite of systemic oppression, discrimination, character assassination on a massive scale, and structural and institutional racism. I'm Black and Samoan, with German and French ancestry as well.
Every single one of us, regardless of race, gender, and sexual preference, just want to be treated with respect, kindness, and equality. Even now, in 2013, this still isn't the case, and it hurts, and is disappointing, that many, many people would much rather insist, and pretend that racism and discrimination isn't an issue, and not talk about it. It's an uncomfortable issue to discuss, I know, but it's an issue that needs to be discussed, no matter how awkward it may feel. Nobody is bringing this up to keep shit going, and to drive a wedge between us. We do it to mend a bridge.
I believe some progressives should think again how they approach these subjects messaging wise. Using phrases like white privilege is simply not constructive and you shouldn't single out individuals.
The upcoming generation also comes across as more libertarian and this sort of language is simply not working especially when directed towards college students who might find it difficult to cope in the current market place (employment opportunities and debt). People in these positions do not need another reason why "they suck". You will find it hard to convince someone who personally does not believe he is in a privileged position, that he should understand that society bends in his favor. It is more likely that he will just switch off completely and believe race related issues are overblown.
Edit : Sorry for raising this old topic from the ground, I was just looking information about these issues and did not notice the date
The upcoming generation also comes across as more libertarian and this sort of language is simply not working especially when directed towards college students who might find it difficult to cope in the current market place (employment opportunities and debt). People in these positions do not need another reason why "they suck". You will find it hard to convince someone who personally does not believe he is in a privileged position, that he should understand that society bends in his favor. It is more likely that he will just switch off completely and believe race related issues are overblown.
Edit : Sorry for raising this old topic from the ground, I was just looking information about these issues and did not notice the date
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