Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS Thread 3: Ridley's Believe It or Not!

Red Arremer said:
Please people. Get off of that "slot" line of thinking.
Smash Bros. 4 without character X would just be that - Smash Bros. 4 without character X. There would be no other "rep" to fill that void a scrapped character would leave behind to "occupy".
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Yeah, when you start comparing each series' number of reps against their popularity and whatnot, you just lose sight of the characters themselves and their gameplay and fanbases.

Sakurai probably doesn't choose to 'replace' characters, he just doesn't have enough time or resources to implement them.

R0ckman said:
Slot = Development time and resources.
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It's not a very good metric because some characters take longer to implement than others. I'm sure the Brawl returners take less time than brand new characters.
 
Hahahah, why are people mad that characters from new games are getting repped? Aren't you people complaining that Olimar was the most recent character in Brawl?

Crab said:
I really don't mind one of the Star Fox characters getting cut, either. If they continued to have three reps when the last new Star Fox game was Command in 2006, I'd be a bit annoyed, especially when Nintendo has so many new characters from the Wii and late DS/3DS era to draw upon.
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3DS game (which was a good seller) doesn't exist?
 
Crab said:
Why? It's true. Super Smash Bros. has a certain amount of development time allocated to it. Characters take a certain amount of that time to develop. That means there is a finite number of possible characters, and that if you add another character, you either have to increase the development time or cut an existing character. They can spend 3 months developing Ike, or 3 months developing Chrom, or 6 months developing Ike and Chrom - but that last option means 3 months got taken away from some other character. It's just juvenile to pretend that this opportunity cost doesn't exist.
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You don't understand what I'm trying to say. The process of how a roster gets worked out is not "We have time for exactly (I'll use a random number here) 30 characters.", it's more a "We have time to make around 30 characters, let's see how many we can put in."

The final roster could be any number around 30, and characters are added or scrapped based on how interesting/fun their gameplay is, or how significant they are to the game (e.g. Mario, Ryu or Jin Kazama would never get cut from any game of their respective series).

This is how fighting game rosters get developed. Aside from the must-have characters, there's no "slots", only an approximation of how many more characters they can put in with the remaining development time, if they even do that. If Ike (for example now) gets scrapped during development, that doesn't mean that immediately after, another character will take his "spot". Heck, even if he gets scrapped in the initial roster draft, it doesn't mean that another character will take his "spot". It's more likely we will end up with a game with 29 characters instead, because scrapping a character's development usually is not done because the developers think the character isn't "worthy".

What I'm saying: There's no exact number that they're clinging onto and absolutely have to fill. After all, if Ike gets scrapped, who says they are going to use that additional development time to make a new character? What if instead, they put more time into making another stage, another couple of items, whatever?
 
Boss Doggie said:
Hahahah, why are people mad that characters from new games are getting repped? Aren't you people complaining that Olimar was the most recent character in Brawl?



3DS game (which was a good seller) doesn't exist?
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You just don't understand...Can't you see Rosalina is becoming nintendo's lightning?! /s
 
This discussion also makes me a little bit sad when I think about how this could be Nintendo's chance to do DLC right. New characters every now and again throughout the generation would be such a fantastic thing.
 
I have to agree that the Rosalina pushing is odd. Someone at Nintendo has a waifu.

Rayis said:
I don't understand how some people are surprised by Rosalina's addition, even before the Galaxy stage reveal I thought she had pretty good chances of making it and after the Galaxy stage was revealed I thought her addition would be inevitable and I was right. She definitely had WAY more chances than w/e other obscure characters people were expecting to get in.
*cough* cough* Ridley *cough* cough*
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Ridley's in the fucking title of this thread. He's about as obscure as the sun at noon.

But sadly, he's just as big.
 
Rosalina (New crowd) is looking to become this generations Wario and Yoshi (Old Crowd).

Would not be surprised at all, if she got her own game.


qq more said:
I'm honestly not understanding why people think Ike is getting cut... any explanation there?
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- Roy got cut, Ike will be cut since it follows muh patterns
- Chrom/Lucina/etc can replace Ike as a Awakening rep, completely ignoring any attempts that FE should get 3 reps.

My favorite tends to be when people think giving Chrom Ike's moveset is plausible. When the only thing resembling between them is that they have blue hair, hit harder than Marth, and have a move called Aether (which look nothing alike). Also ignoring the fact that all newcomers so far have original movesets and brought something new to the table like Sakurai is going for.
 
Red Arremer said:
You don't understand what I'm trying to say. The process of how a roster gets worked out is not "We have time for exactly (I'll use a random number here) 30 characters.", it's more a "We have time to make around 30 characters, let's see how many we can put in."

The final roster could be any number around 30, and characters are added or scrapped based on how interesting/fun their gameplay is, or how significant they are to the game (e.g. Mario, Ryu or Jin Kazama would never get cut from any game of their respective series).

This is how fighting game rosters get developed. Aside from the must-have characters, there's no "slots", only an approximation of how many more characters they can put in with the remaining development time, if they even do that. If Ike (for example now) gets scrapped during development, that doesn't mean that immediately after, another character will take his "spot". Heck, even if he gets scrapped in the initial roster draft, it doesn't mean that another character will take his "spot". It's more likely we will end up with a game with 29 characters instead, because scrapping a character's development usually is not done because the developers think the character isn't "worthy".

What I'm saying: There's no exact number that they're clinging onto and absolutely have to fill. After all, if Ike gets scrapped, who says they are going to use that additional development time to make a new character? What if instead, they put more time into making another stage, another couple of items, whatever?
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All you're saying here is that different characters have different development times. This is true. That doesn't mean the inclusion of Ike had no effect on the inclusion of any other characters. If Ike takes half the development time of, say, Dillon, because Dillon is new but there are time-associated savings thanks to being able to port some of Brawl Ike over, and Wolf also takes half the development time of Dillon for the same reason then the inclusion of Ike and Wolf has excluded the inclusion of Dillon. The trade-off still exists, and the only reason people treat it as 'slots' is because people don't know how much time a particular character would take to develop compared to any other character and just make the simplifying assumption they all take relatively the same amount of time to develop. Even if we ignore that assumption and say Ike has a smaller opportunity cost for inclusion, considering he is from one of Nintendo's relatively smaller series and is a character who is no part of the series' recent history at that, the question of "do we value the inclusion of Ike enough relevant to his opportunity cost" still becomes a difficult one to say "yes" too.
 
Neoriceisgood said:
rosalina_avatar2_by_neoriceisgood-d6yixe6.png
yellow_luma_by_neoriceisgood-d6yixec.png
white_luma_by_neoriceisgood-d6yixe8.png
red_luma_by_neoriceisgood-d6yixe3.png
green_luma_by_neoriceisgood-d6yixdy.png
blue_luma_by_neoriceisgood-d6yixdu.png


Free avatars for all.
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Is the white Luma still free? I'm assuming it is and taking it.
 
Are people still arguing about "the game has x amount of slots"?

Also heaven forbid newcomers who are only familiar to later works express what they want in Smash.

Gleethor said:
Actually I think Ike was the most recent character in Brawl.
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Hmm I guess they were referring to series then. Which is a copout still.

Glad WFT exists.
 
SmithnCo said:
Yeah, when you start comparing each series' number of reps against their popularity and whatnot, you just lose sight of the characters themselves and their gameplay and fanbases.

Sakurai probably doesn't choose to 'replace' characters, he just doesn't have enough time or resources to implement them.


It's not a very good metric because some characters take longer to implement than others. I'm sure the Brawl returners take less time than brand new characters.
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I don't know, in some instances I wonder why are people not happy with main pillars of the franchises? Why do we NEED Falco and Wolf? Do they do anything beyond offering different flavors? Can that fanbase not be content with a dog fight cameo with dialogue on a stage or better yet a final smash bringing these characters in? Their foundations for fighting are very much the same despite not being full on clones and are far worse than having several swordsman with different sword styles. Its also not like the Mario cast where the have completely different traits altogether.

Consider that a new franchise usually brings new music and new stages even references most of the time, I don't see why people obsess over already establish franchises. You don't get anything but the character. Why not go for the new dish on the menu? Why settle for a different flavor of the same shit?

I'm just using Starfox as an example but wouldn't it have been more exciting to make Saki or Isaac a full on playable character rather than put in Falco and Wolf? Wouldn't it be more interesting for the general gamer as well to have more variety in the media? I'd surely take one new franchise over 2 characters from an already established one, regardless of if I like the new franchise. Hell, ROB was an okay add for Gyromite.

Maybe it was because I didn't care but did Mewtwo really cause that much backlash from being cut? It was nothing compared to MvC3 not having Mega Man. Its all about who you choose to make room for new characters and experiences. I see nothing wrong with trimming the fat of established franchises for new franchises.
 
Apparently people only look through "franchises" rather than the characters themselves, and that merely having Fox should "satisfy" those folks who don't even like him but like, say, Falco.
 
R0ckman said:
I don't know, in some instances I wonder why are people not happy with main pillars of the franchises? Why do we NEED Falco and Wolf? Do they do anything beyond offering different flavors? Can that fanbase not be content with a dog fight cameo with dialogue on a stage or better yet a final smash bringing these characters in? Their foundations for fighting are very much the same despite not being full on clones and are far worse than having several swordsman with different sword styles. Its also not like the Mario cast where the have completely different traits altogether.

Consider that a new franchise usually brings new music and new stages even references most of the time, I don't see why people obsess over already establish franchises. You don't get anything but the character. Why not go for the new dish on the menu? Why settle for a different flavor of the same shit?

I'm just using Starfox as an example but wouldn't it have been more exciting to make Saki or Isaac a full on playable character rather than put in Falco and Wolf? Wouldn't it be more interesting for the general gamer as well to have more variety in the media? I'd surely take one new franchise over 2 characters from an already established one, regardless of if I like the nee franchise. Hell, ROB was an okay add for Gyromite.

Maybe it was because I didn't care but did Mewtwo really cause that much backlash from being cut? It was nothing compared to MvC3 not having Mega Man. Its all about who you choose to make room for new characters and experiences. I see nothing wrong with trimming the fat of established franchises for new franchises.
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I'm with you in that we don't really need to add a ton of reps from already over-repped franchises like Star Fox. I think at this point a lot of the franchises are already well repped so I hope to see more main characters from smaller franchises like S&P.

But I'm not opposed to them bringing all the Brawl characters back, though it's hard to say how they should devote their time without knowing just how much of a commitment bringing the old characters back is. If it's a relatively painless process, I'm fine with everyone returning.
 

Mewtwo is one of the most popular Pokemon ever created. He's been featured in what, 3-4 Pokemon films? If you couldn't understand why people would rather play as the psychic using, telekinesis wielding Pokemon badass over Pikachu, then I unno sir...

With that said, it's not about the "franchises". People want choice. They want to play as a multitude of their favorite characters, and not just the most popular or general "rep" from their games. Otherwise we'd stop at Mario, and that leaves everyone else out. That's like a 4th of the cast now. Why have awesome Sheik in this, when all we need is Link, right?

We NEED Falco because people want to play as him. In what game with character selection do you want to be limited in selection? Especially the 4th game in?

You seem to think that if one franchise gets a character, that would distract from another underrepped or no repped franchise getting one, and I assure you that's not how it works.
 
R0ckman said:
Consider that a new franchise usually brings new music and new stages even references most of the time, I don't see why people obsess over already establish franchises. You don't get anything but the character. Why not go for the new dish on the menu? Why settle for a different flavor of the same shit?

I'm just using Starfox as an example but wouldn't it have been more exciting to make Saki or Isaac a full on playable character rather than put in Falco and Wolf? Wouldn't it be more interesting for the general gamer as well to have more variety in the media? I'd surely take one new franchise over 2 characters from an already established one, regardless of if I like the new franchise. Hell, ROB was an okay add for Gyromite.
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If I like the franchise, then I want it repped. If I don't like the franchise, I'd rather have an existing character from one I do like. It's that simple for me. Saki would be cool since I really like Sin and Punishment. But I'd much rather have Rosalina or Cranky Kong than Xenoblade Guy.
 
Jaeger said:
Mewtwo is one of the most popular Pokemon ever created. He's been featured in what, 3-4 Pokemon films? If you couldn't understand why people would rather play as the psychic using, telekinesis wielding Pokemon badass over Pikachu, then I unno sir...

With that said, it's not about the "franchises". People want choice. They want to play as a multitude of their favorite characters, and not just the most popular or general "rep" from their games. Otherwise we'd stop at Mario, and that leaves everyone else out. That's like a 4th of the cast now. Why have awesome Sheik in this, when all we need is Link, right?

We NEED Falco because people want to play as him. In what game with character selection do you want to be limited in selection? Especially the 4th game in?
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This man gets it.

Smash isn't really about representing franchises, but more about seeing a favorite character. It just happens that many a favorite character can be from various franchises, but that isn't the necessary rule.
 
Jaeger said:
Mewtwo is one of the most popular Pokemon ever created. He's been featured in what, 3-4 Pokemon films? If you couldn't understand why people would rather play as the psychic using, telekinesis wielding Pokemon badass over Pikachu, then I unno sir...
Click to expand...

I hope they bring Mewtwo back... His chances are pretty good I think, since they put a big focus on him leading into X and Y.
 
I seriously believe Mewtwo and Roy are returning by virtue of them being in Brawl to begin with, with Sonic ruining everyone (as usual).
 
Characters are cool and all. It's interesting to see who 'represents' the series, cool to see what franchises are in at all, which ones get stages. It's fun to hope for characters just because they're cool characters. "How awesome would it be to play as Bowser, Mewtwo, MetaKnight, Saki, Little Mac, etc!?" It's fun to argue and say "this character deserves that spot" or "Sakurai what were you thinking T.T".

But once it gets down to it, none of that matters much. I'll get excited for that for a few weeks after the game's out. The movesets and game mechanics will matter way more in the end. I'll keep coming back to that for years. If Marth's moveset was on Lucario, it wouldn't matter that I hate the latter character. If he's fun to play I'd play him. The fact that Fox, Falco, Wolf all have superficially similar movesets doesn't matter that much, because they all play really differently overall.

Idk, I'm kinda rambling at this point, it's just striking to me looking back, how unimportant the things I get hyped about prerelease are to my actual enjoyment of the game.
 
Jaeger said:
Mewtwo is one of the most popular Pokemon ever created. He's been featured in what, 3-4 Pokemon films? If you couldn't understand why people would rather play as the psychic using, telekinesis wielding Pokemon badass over Pikachu, then I unno sir...

With that said, it's not about the "franchises". People want choice. They want to play as a multitude of their favorite characters, and not just the most popular or general "rep" from their games. Otherwise we'd stop at Mario, and that leaves everyone else out. That's like a 4th of the cast now. Why have awesome Sheik in this, when all we need is Link, right?

We NEED Falco because people want to play as him. In what game with character selection do you want to be limited in selection? Especially the 4th game in?

You seem to think that if one franchise gets a character, that would distract from another underrepped or no repped franchise getting one, and I assure you that's not how it works.
Click to expand...

This view is very sort sited, and overall you get LESS content in the game. Less stages, less music etc. Falco does nothing different in foundation from fox. So clearly we don't need him, thats like a child telling the owner to add grill cheese on cibata and with white cheddar, because he likes it. Nothing else is taken into account of the overall restaurant.
 
I can see Mewtwo coming back due to his popularity, especially now that he has a mega form in X/Y.
I guess the same can be said about Lucario, though.

I don't, however, think he's going to be revealed anytime soon. If anything, he'll be a secret character we won't know about till the game is released.
 
DaBoss said:
It has only been in 2 movies. But that is still more than most "featured" Pokemon in movies. I think only Celebi is the one that has been also featured twice.
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I thought it was more than that? Wasn't it like a straight to home film, Return of Mewtwo or something? Then a Special for sure, but I suppose that wouldn't be a full fledged film.
 
DaBoss said:
It has only been in 2 movies. But that is still more than most "featured" Pokemon in movies. I think only Celebi is the one that has been also featured twice.
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Three. 1st movie, Mewtwo Returns, and the Genesect one.

EDIT: And I guess Mewtwo Returns was a tv special. Huh.
 
Freezie KO said:
If I like the franchise, then I want it repped. If I don't like the franchise, I'd rather have an existing character from one I do like. It's that simple for me. Saki would be cool since I really like Sin and Punishment. But I'd much rather have Rosalina or Cranky Kong than Xenoblade Guy.
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I'm the weird adventurous type who'll try everyone once in Smash games and either like them for what they bring to the roster as a player or as a franchise representative. It's why when I hear that line "doesn't deserve to be in" I go bonkers. I want as many franchises and characters represented as possible. I want varied and unique movesets. As such, adding arbitrary limits because "franchise X is over-represented/Y is under represented/Z does or doesn't sell" is anathema to what I want to see happen with it.

Hell I'm SmashGAF's biggest Mike Jones stan! That doesn't mean I'd tell Mewtwo or Daisy fuck off because we have too many Marios/Pokemon here (so long as their play style and character/attitude transitions well). :lol
 
R0ckman said:
This view is very sort sited, and overall you get LESS content in the game. Less stages, less music etc.
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Stages have to be designed, modeled, textured, and programmed, music has to be arranged, etc.

Diversifying the source of the content in no way increases the amount of the content.
 
Mewtwo Returns is a TV special turned direct to movie.

R0ckman said:
This view is very sort sited, and overall you get LESS content in the game. Less stages, less music etc. Falco does nothing different in foundation from fox. So clearly we don't need him, thats like a child telling the owner to add grill cheese on cibata and with white cheddar, because he likes it. Nothing else is taken into account of the overall restaurant.
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It's a good thing Smash does both ways! It's not like all of Smash characters are from three franchises!

FYI: Characters and franchises are irrelevant when it comes to stages or music. Even way before 64 Falcon and Ness didn't get stages and their own music, and even in Melee Fire Emblem didn't get their stages and only have one measly music. Brawl even showed they added more music to existing franchises, and stages and music to franchises that didn't have characters.

So that argument doesn't really hold water.

Azure J said:
I'm the weird adventurous type who'll try everyone once in Smash games and either like them for what they bring to the roster as a player or as a franchise representative. It's why when I hear that line "doesn't deserve to be in" I go bonkers. I want as many franchises and characters represented as possible. I want varied and unique movesets. As such, adding arbitrary limits because "franchise X is over-represented/Y is under represented/Z does or doesn't sell" is anathema to what I want to see happen with it.

Hell I'm SmashGAF's biggest Mike Jones stan! That doesn't mean I'd tell Mega Blaziken or Daisy fuck off because we have too many Marios/Pokemon here (so long as their play style and character/attitude transitions well). :lol
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Which is why discussion about "character worth" is pointless at the end of the day.

But alas, Smash Cycle.
 
Jaeger said:
I thought it was more than that? Wasn't it like a straight to home film, Return of Mewtwo or something? Then a Special for sure, but I suppose that wouldn't be a full fledged film.
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ArchedThunder said:
Mewtwo was in two movies and two TV specials.
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Toxi said:
Three. 1st movie, Mewtwo Returns, and the Genesect one.

EDIT: And I guess Mewtwo Returns was a tv special. Huh.
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Yea, there was 2 specials and 2 movies. Didn't count the specials.

And thinking of more Pokemon, there was Mew and Victini (but with Victini, it is essentially the same movie).

Speaking of that, Gen 6 doesn't have the equivalent of Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy, and Victini. I guess there won't be a Gen 6 equivalent for the PokeBall.
Timeaisis said:
I can see Mewtwo coming back due to his popularity, especially now that he has a mega form in X/Y.
I guess the same can be said about Lucario, though.

I don't, however, think he's going to be revealed anytime soon. If anything, he'll be a secret character we won't know about till the game is released.
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Well both Pokemon received megalutions due to popularity most likely.
 
Azure J said:
I'm the weird adventurous type who'll try everyone once in Smash games and either like them for what they bring to the roster as a player or as a franchise representative. It's why when I hear that line "doesn't deserve to be in" I go bonkers. I want as many franchises and characters represented as possible. I want varied and unique movesets. As such, adding arbitrary limits because "franchise X is over-represented/Y is under represented/Z does or doesn't sell" is anathema to what I want to see happen with it.

Hell I'm SmashGAF's biggest Mike Jones stan! That doesn't mean I'd tell Mewtwo or Daisy fuck off because we have too many Marios/Pokemon here (so long as their play style and character/attitude transitions well). :lol
Click to expand...

When the Smash games come out, I actually play with everyone also. I find it fun to discover everyone's moveset from a pure gameplay perspective of Smash Bros. And I hope there's space for everyone's favorite character.

But in terms of personal preference, if I had to choose between a character I like (such as Rosalina) or a character I don't know from an unrepresented franchise, I'd go with the character I already have an affinity for.
 
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