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[Sanjuro]

My ultimate point is that, just like Manning, there are concessions, cracks and flaws in the Brady resume. Like all great players have. And I think picking a GOAT is silly, because football, hell, the quarterback position alone, has yet to find its Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan.

My objective with the post, at least a little, was to poke you, yes, but I do feel the Pats Super Bowl wins have a stigma. Especially with two losses in the two appearances after being discovered. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. We differ. It's cool.

Full disclosure, I'm a Manning fan and I despise Brady. But I think arguments could be made for either being GOAT right now. But it's honestly too close to call.

LeBron is better than Jordan anywaylolololol.

I understand the mindset of using that idea. I just never had anyone convincingly tell me why I could look down upon the Super Bowls.

The two Super Bowl losses are simple. Miracle catch, and our defense was trash for the latter.

Either way, I still like Peyton more.

 

[Walter Matthau]

He has a great mind, but he doesn't have the best arm or legs. He plays in today's league which is very quarterback friendly and has played on some stacked offenses over the years.

 

[johnny_park]

I'm sorry your dog died, but great post, man.

Your point worries me, though. Our defense - or at least, our pass defense - stinks this year. It looks like the Broncos will have to score 30+ points, or maybe even more, to win games in the playoffs. The offense is getting a bit fitful, but even at the insane level it's been most of the year, it might not be enough to overcome a defense likely to give up so many points against good playoff teams.

Man, I'd love to be wrong. It'd be nice to see this defense stiffen up at the right time.

I'm probably biased since the broncos are my favorite team but I don't think there defense is a bad as the rankings say they are. The reason their pass defense is ranked so low (28) is because teams have to throw against them when they are behind by so many points. Same could be said about their run defense. It's no where as good as the rankings say they are (8).

 

[Sanjuro]

He has a great mind, but he doesn't have the best arm or legs. He plays in today's league which is very quarterback friendly and has played on some stacked offenses over the years.

Who? That describes almost all of the relevant quarterbacks from the past five years or so.

I'm probably biased since the broncos are my favorite team but I don't think there defense is a bad as the rankings say they are. The reason their pass defense is ranked so low (28) is because teams have to throw against them when they are behind by so many points. Same could be said about their run defense. It's no where as good as the rankings say they are (8).

They are the 1985 Bears in comparison to some of the shit Colts defenses that Peyton had back in the day. I think for what they provide offensively, they have a run of the mill defense currently.

 

[TheKaeptain]

I disagree, but it was close. And there are always close ones, for any team, in any year. We've been robbed of a couple this year, in my opinion, but that's the game.

He had no control over the ball when he went out.

 

[johnny_park]

He had no control over the ball when he went out.

Did you see everyone of Brady's 50 tds? Were they all caught cleanly?

They reviewed the catch. It counted.

 

[JORMBO]

This topic pops up all over around this time every year.

Ask again in Mid January.

 

[Dougstyles]

Overall numbers are not a good indicator if a player is clutch or a choker.

A good indicator can be his comp/att, TD and INT rate in the last 4 minutes of the 4th Qtr while trailing

In close playoff games late, neither of them are particularly impressive. You want to talk about one clutch motherfucker, let's talk some Kurt Warner.

 

[Version 3.0]

He had no control over the ball when he went out.

Sure he did, otherwise he would've dropped it. He just didn't have a grip on it with both hands. If the Giants can win a Superbowl with a ball pressed against a helmet, then Decker's catch can count with the ball pressed against his forearm.

 

[Ryck]

As much as I like and admire Manning's skill and ability the guy has a tendency to choke in big games. In my opinion had Rex Grossman not choked even harder I don't think Peyton would have a ring at all. Is he best passer statistically? Without a doubt. Is he the GOAT?

Nope. (imo)

 

[Version 3.0]

I'm probably biased since the broncos are my favorite team but I don't think there defense is a bad as the rankings say they are. The reason their pass defense is ranked so low (28) is because teams have to throw against them when they are behind by so many points. Same could be said about their run defense. It's no where as good as the rankings say they are (8).

I don't know about that. I do think the run defense is very good, but unfortunately, instead of consistently giving up short yards, they give up nothing most of the time and then give up 30+ yards all at once. But the run defense doesn't worry me much.

The pass defense does, though. The idea that teams have to throw a lot to keep up is flawed - we've been roughly even, or even down, through a lot of the time in most games. Generally speaking, it's in second half when the offense finally kicks it into high gear. The opponents' passing yards aren't as inflated as the scores might indicate. Besides, what's supposed to happen when opponents are forced to pass is that they get picked off and dig themselves deeper, then wash rinse repeat. That hasn't really been the case - off the top of my head, it only happened to the Redskins.

Anyway, I'm not too terribly worried. The defense has clicked from time to time this year. If they can play their best in the playoffs - which has been known to happen, of course - then the Broncos can go all the way.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Manning single-handedly dragged a 2-14 team to a 14-2 record and a Super Bowl appearance.

If Pierre "bricks for hands" Garcon could catch a ball he'd have won it too.

 

[Spinluck]

The Steelers won their first SB with Ben in spite of him and because of several very questionable calls. You can't cite that Super Bowl in any argument for Roethlisberger. He was abysmal in it.

I definitely agree.

Ben was shit in that game. But the game winning drive against the Cards in his 2nd SB was incredible.

 

[Spinluck]

Manning single-handedly dragged a 2-14 team to a 14-2 record and a Super Bowl appearance.

If Pierre "bricks for hands" Garcon could catch a ball he'd have won it too.

I always think about that play alongside the Porter Pick 6. Fuck Pierre.

 

[The Albatross]

Glad to see that Brady gets all this love on page 1... even if some is sarcastic.

I'd say... Peyton Manning is the greatest passer of this generation. With Dan Marino, he's probably the greatest passer of all time. That said, because of his lack of Super Bowls and key playoff losses, it's tough to advocate for him... Especially when you have guys like Brady who have better stats (TD:Int Ratio is godlike), more regular season wins, more playoff wins, and more Super Bowls. What Dan Marino statistically in an age when passing was much more difficult.. is just unreal.

 

[Kusagari]

In close playoff games late, neither of them are particularly impressive. You want to talk about one clutch motherfucker, let's talk some Kurt Warner.

Brady and Peyton are both lower than Rivers lmao.

 

[The Albatross]

In close playoff games late, neither of them are particularly impressive. You want to talk about one clutch motherfucker, let's talk some Kurt Warner.

Not to discount Warner's pretty much perfect numbers... But almost every player higher than Brady and Manning is working in a sample size a couple drives. Manning and Brady are both 65+ attempts... most of the others in that list are ~10 attempts. That's one drive for some of them.

Exceptions are Brees, Warner, Eli Manning, and Rothlisberger. ANd.. generally, that's very good company. They're still some ~30 or ~40 attempts below Manning and Brady. For instance, Marc Bulger is in the top 10 of that list.. He's 8 / 9 with 1 TD and 1 INT. Basically, what that means is he led 1 game winning successful TD drive, and then the next time he was in that situation, he led a game losing interception drive. Anthony Wright is #10 ... going 3 for 7 for 50 yards and a TD. Seriously, who on earth would consider Anthony Wright to be a "clutch" quarterback?

Any list where Jake Delhomme, Marc Bulger, Jay Fiedler, Trent Green, Marc BUlger, and Anthony Wright at in the top 10 ... is probably a fairly contrived list.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Let's not forget that Manning made it to a Super Bowl despite having a dead person as coach.

 

[Dougstyles]

Not to discount Warner's pretty much perfect numbers... But almost every player higher than Brady and Manning is working in a sample size a couple drives. Manning and Brady are both 65+ attempts... most of the others in that list are ~10 attempts. That's one drive for some of them.

Exceptions are Brees, Warner, Eli Manning, and Rothlisberger. ANd.. generally, that's very good company. They're still some ~30 or ~40 attempts below Manning and Brady. For instance, Marc Bulger is in the top 10 of that list.. He's 8 / 9 with 1 TD and 1 INT. Basically, what that means is he led 1 game winning successful TD drive, and then the next time he was in that situation, he led a game losing interception drive. Anthony Wright is #10 ... going 3 for 7 for 50 yards and a TD. Seriously, who on earth would consider Anthony Wright to be a "clutch" quarterback?

Any list where Jake Delhomme, Marc Bulger, Jay Fiedler, Trent Green, Marc BUlger, and Anthony Wright at in the top 10 ... is probably a fairly contrived list.

I agree. As far as I'm concerned, playoff "clutchness" covers the entirety of a playoff game, which is why it always bothers me when people say that the beatdowns Peyton laid against Denver in '03 and '04 somehow "don't count". Playoffs is playoffs. But someone asked, so I figured I'd look it up.

I think the big takeaway is that what Opiate says is true:

So we need to look at only a few select statistics, only in the last 4 minutes, only in the fourth quarter, only while trailing and only in playoff games to gauge who is "clutch"? Without even looking, I can confidently state that the sample size for such analysis would be very small and would be highly susceptible to random variation which showed luck more than it showed skill.

In any given set of 60-100 passes, it's entirely possible that Trent Dilfor would have been better than Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or anyone else just due to extraneous variables or simple random fluctuation that can't be meaningfully attributed to underlying skill. It takes a far greater amount of statistical aggregation to see meaningful differences.

---

Let's not forget that Manning made it to a Super Bowl despite having a dead person as coach.

This is also true.

 

[msdstc]

I agree. As far as I'm concerned, playoff "clutchness" covers the entirety of a playoff game, which is why it always bothers me when people say that the beatdowns Peyton laid against Denver in '03 and '04 somehow "don't count". Playoffs is playoffs. But someone asked, so I figured I'd look it up.

I think the big takeaway is that what Opiate says is true:



---



This is true.

Tony Dungy was brilliant despite all the hate he gets.

The number 1 argument and most valid for me is the weapons vs. weapons here. Peyton had the edge, he had marvin, he had reggie wayne, he had dallas clark, etc. etc. Brady had givens, patten, brown, branch, etc. Hell even this year, that broncos team is so ridiculously stacked, much more so than the 07 squad. The 07 thing was a lot on Randy as well, but Brady was amazing that season. Compare it side by side

#1 Randy Moss (Best by a lot to be fair) > Demarius whose a beast in his own right
#2 Welker, who was good, but still new that season < Welker smarter veteran
#3 Donte Lolworth <<<<< Erick Decker
#4 Gaffney, love him, but cmon < Julius Thomas
#5 Laurence Maroney(LOLOL) <<<<<<<<<<< Knoshon

I'd take a team with talent similar to this squad over the 07 squad any day, they were too 1 dimensional (as is Josh Mcdaniels.), hell I thought their team in '11 was better if it wasn't for Aarons MCL sprain and Ocho not knowing a single play, they would've broke every record in the book.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Tony Dungy was brilliant despite all the hate he gets.

lol. Jim Caldwell was so dead nobody could tell he wasn't Tony Dungy.

What happened to Dallas Clark after Peyton left? Austin Collie? Anthony Gonzalez?

BRANDON STOKLEY?

Seriously, look up Stokley's stats before/during/after Peyton. It's hilarious.

 

[EBCubs03]

Football is a terrible sport anyway so nobody will remember any football player's name 100 years from now

Deal with it

 

[msdstc]

lol. Jim Caldwell was so dead nobody could tell he wasn't Tony Dungy.

What happened to Dallas Clark after Peyton left? Austin Collie? Anthony Gonzalez?

BRANDON STOKLEY?

Seriously, look up Stokley's stats before/during/after Peyton. It's hilarious.

LOL way to spin it bud. Dallas clark went passed 30 as a tight end... he sucked before peyton left town, because his body failed him. REALLY on Austin Collie and Anthony? Its tragic, but they both fell victim to career ending injuries. If you wanna nitpick though, Collie has been revived a bit by Brady this season when he's had a shot out there.

What happened to patten? Givens? Branch? Then Branch comes back, similar to the stokely situation (both got old, both were resurgent). What players have left the pats and gone on to be the same? The only 2 I can think of are Welker, because he went to a great QB and a stacked team where seperation is easy to get when you get lost, and Woodhead who also went to a system that knew how to use him. Garcon on the other hand went on to be a top receiver in a garbage system, who was emerging when peyton was leaving town.

Gonzalez sucked his entire career even when he was with Peyton, nice try though.

edit- Reggie Wayne was a lot last year, and was having a great year this year as well post Peyton. Randy Disappeared before he was with the pats and after. I know it's a different player, but it's the same type of argument you made.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

And I think picking a GOAT is silly, because football, hell, the quarterback position alone, has yet to find its Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan.

What? That would be Jerry Rice. Even back in the late 80s/early 90s he was referred to as Jordan in cleats.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Football is a terrible sport anyway so nobody will remember any football player's name 100 years from now

Deal with it

no

 

[johnny_park]

Tony Dungy was brilliant despite all the hate he gets.

The number 1 argument and most valid for me is the weapons vs. weapons here. Peyton had the edge, he had marvin, he had reggie wayne, he had dallas clark, etc. etc. Brady had givens, patten, brown, branch, etc. Hell even this year, that broncos team is so ridiculously stacked, much more so than the 07 squad. The 07 thing was a lot on Randy as well, but Brady was amazing that season. Compare it side by side

#1 Randy Moss (Best by a lot to be fair) > Demarius whose a beast in his own right
#2 Welker, who was good, but still new that season < Welker smarter veteran
#3 Donte Lolworth <<<<< Erick Decker
#4 Gaffney, love him, but cmon < Julius Thomas
#5 Laurence Maroney(LOLOL) <<<<<<<<<<< Knoshon

I'd take a team with talent similar to this squad over the 07 squad any day, they were too 1 dimensional (as is Josh Mcdaniels.), hell I thought their team in '11 was better if it wasn't for Aarons MCL sprain and Ocho not knowing a single play, they would've broke every record in the book.

I mentioned this earlier I'm this thread. Both Manning and Brady has played with 50 pro bowlers. The difference is most of Brady's was on the defensive side while Manning's was mostly on the offensive side.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Brady is still the GOAT but Peyton makes for a nice number 2 or 3.

 

[msdstc]

I mentioned this earlier I'm this thread. Both Manning and Brady has played with 50 pro bowlers. The difference is most of Brady's was on the defensive side while Manning's was mostly on the offensive side.

I'll give that the pats always had the better defense, but the stats in terms of offense were always close. My point is when Brady finally got an offense similar to Peyton's, his numbers blew past Peytons.

 

[jman2050]

I'll give that the pats always had the better defense, but the stats in terms of offense were always close. My point is when Brady finally got an offense similar to Peyton's, his numbers blew past Peytons.

This is what we like to call "revisionist history"

 

[TheKaeptain]

Manning single-handedly dragged a 2-14 team to a 14-2 record and a Super Bowl appearance.

If Pierre "bricks for hands" Garcon could catch a ball he'd have won it too.

Andrew Luck dragged a 2-14 team to the playoffs in his Rookie season! GOAT!

 

[msdstc]

This is what we like to call "revisionist history"

I shouldn't word it so heavily, just that he put together the greatest offense of all time when he finally got some weapons. They attempted to do it again, but they've just screwed tom over the past few years, settling for garbage. Elway has done an excellent job of putting together a stacked squad and actually making moves to finish the job before that window closes.

I'll word it like this. I'd rather have Thomas, Decker, Welker, etc. than Calvin johnson and a handful of average weapons/receivers. A spread out group always does more damage. Greatest show on turf had Holt, Bruce, Faulk. 15-1 vikes had Randy and cris, with a good running game, and Randall playin his best football. Look what culpepper did with these groups. Mannings 49 had Harrison and Wayne in their prime. I'd take Brady on all of these teams over any other. Manning is right there. It's still early but the only other QB I'd put over Manning at this point is Rodgers. He had a fairly similar group with Jennings, Nelson, Jermichael, driver, etc.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Andrew Luck dragged a 2-14 team to the playoffs in his Rookie season! GOAT!

Yeah he's definitely GOAT. But not many of them 2-14 dudes were still on the team doe.

 

[msdstc]

Manning single-handedly dragged a 2-14 team to a 14-2 record and a Super Bowl appearance.

If Pierre "bricks for hands" Garcon could catch a ball he'd have won it too.

He also would've won it if he hadn't thrown a perfect pass to tracy porter for 6. This is also a spun argument. The colts were tanking clear as day. They kept trotting Curtis Painter out there, guy doesn't even belong on a sideline let alone starting. Not to mention the year before one of the worst coaches of all time, coasted on the ghost of Tony Dungy and Peyton taking coaching responsibilities for the year, then immediately got fired the next year.

edit- for the record I have nothing against tanking. It was the best move, immediately rebuiliding a franchise that can compete for the next 10-15 years with an elite QB.

 

[Cloudy]

What? The Patriots defense has struggled for years now, especially against top-tier QBs.

Just happens to coincide with their lack of SB wins. Interesting how that works

Von miller is thought to have a sprain.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10186530/von-miller-denver-broncos-season-torn-acl

 

[msdstc]

Just happens to coincide with their lack of SB wins. Interesting how that works


http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10186530/von-miller-denver-broncos-season-torn-acl

I wouldn't chalk it up to just that, nothing works in a vacuum like that, injuries have derailed them both times... don't get me wrong they were flat out outplayed in the first game, but the helmet catch was miraculous, and Their best player was useless with a gimpy ankle. Not to mention their defense the last 5 years have been HISTORICALLY bad. The secondary has been a joke, and the drafting has been disastrous, which I put on Bill and Kraft for refusing to sign free agents. They've desperately needed- safeties, cornerbacks, and pass rushers. They've drafted trash after trash- Darius Butler, Jonathan Wilhite, Ras-I-Dowling, Meriweather, chung, wheatley. They finally made a move and brought in Talib and it's changed things around. Unfortunately as soon as they did this they decided to not spend a dime on offense, dropping Welker, missing out on any free agent receiver, letting Woodhead walk, and obviously nobodies fault the whole Hernandez ordeal.

 

[The Albatross]

Tony Dungy was brilliant despite all the hate he gets.

The number 1 argument and most valid for me is the weapons vs. weapons here. Peyton had the edge, he had marvin, he had reggie wayne, he had dallas clark, etc. etc. Brady had givens, patten, brown, branch, etc. Hell even this year, that broncos team is so ridiculously stacked, much more so than the 07 squad. The 07 thing was a lot on Randy as well, but Brady was amazing that season. Compare it side by side

#1 Randy Moss (Best by a lot to be fair) > Demarius whose a beast in his own right
#2 Welker, who was good, but still new that season < Welker smarter veteran
#3 Donte Lolworth <<<<< Erick Decker
#4 Gaffney, love him, but cmon < Julius Thomas
#5 Laurence Maroney(LOLOL) <<<<<<<<<<< Knoshon

I'd take a team with talent similar to this squad over the 07 squad any day, they were too 1 dimensional (as is Josh Mcdaniels.), hell I thought their team in '11 was better if it wasn't for Aarons MCL sprain and Ocho not knowing a single play, they would've broke every record in the book.

I think a lot of people overlook the 2010 season of Brady's because of the flashy, 16 - 0, 50 TD season of 2007. Brady threw 36 Touchdowns and four interceptions that season, which is also an NFL record, and 0.8% interception rate (I believe also a record). That's one of the most impressive passing seasons ever and it's one that I doubt we'll ever see broken. If any quarterback surpasses it, it'll be Aaron Rodgers... He threw 45 TDs and only six interceptions in one season with a 1.2% interception rate. For reference, this is Peyton Manning's best season interception rate wise, at 1.6, double Brady's in 2010.

Taking off a similar point that you made in a post about wide receivers who found success in New England. Besides Randy Moss and Wes Welker, successful WR's in New England have done nothing in other cities after leaving New England... Branch, David Givens, David Patton, Reche Caldwell, Ben Watson, Daniel Graham, Germaine Wiggins... I mean, you can go down the list of targets that have won 1, 2, and 3 Super Bowls with Tom Brady at QB and they are a list of forgettable nobodies who nobody has heard of. Fans were clamoring for ownership to put talent around Brady, and in 2007 they went out and did it... sort of. Randy Moss is a proven great, one of the all time great wide receivers... But Wes Welker was a decent, mostly quiet slot receiver who in 4 season in the NFL only put up 600 yards once. Up until joining the Patriots, Welker had 1 career touchdown. They also added Dante Stallworth who was, at the time, considered a much bigger weapon than Welker. In effect, you added two players to the offense, one all time great, and then a guy who was mostly forgettable to everybody in the league other than Dolphins fans. The result was the best offensive display in league history up to that point.

But, player for player, the talent on this Denver team is far superior to the talent on the '07 Patriots roster. I also think that this Denver offense is the best offense in NFL history.

I wouldn't chalk it up to just that, nothing works in a vacuum like that, injuries have derailed them both times... don't get me wrong they were flat out outplayed in the first game, but the helmet catch was miraculous, and Their best player was useless with a gimpy ankle. Not to mention their defense the last 5 years have been HISTORICALLY bad. The secondary has been a joke, and the drafting has been disastrous, which I put on Bill and Kraft for refusing to sign free agents. They've desperately needed- safeties, cornerbacks, and pass rushers. They've drafted trash after trash- Darius Butler, Jonathan Wilhite, Ras-I-Dowling, Meriweather, chung, wheatley. They finally made a move and brought in Talib and it's changed things around. Unfortunately as soon as they did this they decided to not spend a dime on offense, dropping Welker, missing out on any free agent receiver, letting Woodhead walk, and obviously nobodies fault the whole Hernandez ordeal.

In both Super Bowls, the Patriots hit their perfect storm matchup.. Much like how the Rams in 2001 went up against the only team they wouldn't be able to beat. the 2010 Super Bowl was the worse of the two... because the offensive line couldn't protect against a fast, long defense, which is exactly what the Giants had.

Last year, I was very optimistic for the Patriots future because they had transitioned into a team that was totally different than 2007, and one that would see them be successful with an aging Brady. Unfortunately, the persistent injuries to Gronkowski, Hernandez fiasco, and the major injuries to the defense this season prevent it from being apparent. This was a bit of a window year, a year for a solid run at the Super Bowl, but every good player on the defense has gone down with injury, and without Gronkowski, I don't think that the offense is going to be able to put up 24 points with any predictability.

 

[msdstc]

I think a lot of people overlook the 2010 season of Brady's because of the flashy, 16 - 0, 50 TD season of 2007. Brady threw 36 Touchdowns and four interceptions that season, which is also an NFL record, and 0.8% interception rate (I believe also a record). That's one of the most impressive passing seasons ever and it's one that I doubt we'll ever see broken. If any quarterback surpasses it, it'll be Aaron Rodgers... He threw 45 TDs and only six interceptions in one season with a 1.2% interception rate. For reference, this is Peyton Manning's best season interception rate wise, at 1.6, double Brady's in 2010.

Taking off a similar point that you made in a post about wide receivers who found success in New England. Besides Randy Moss and Wes Welker, successful WR's in New England have done nothing in other cities after leaving New England... Branch, David Givens, David Patton, Reche Caldwell, Ben Watson, Daniel Graham, Germaine Wiggins... I mean, you can go down the list of targets that have won 1, 2, and 3 Super Bowls with Tom Brady at QB and they are a list of forgettable nobodies who nobody has heard of. Fans were clamoring for ownership to put talent around Brady, and in 2007 they went out and did it... sort of. Randy Moss is a proven great, one of the all time great wide receivers... But Wes Welker was a decent, mostly quiet slot receiver who in 4 season in the NFL only put up 600 yards once. Up until joining the Patriots, Welker had 1 career touchdown. They also added Dante Stallworth who was, at the time, considered a much bigger weapon than Welker. In effect, you added two players to the offense, one all time great, and then a guy who was mostly forgettable to everybody in the league other than Dolphins fans. The result was the best offensive display in league history up to that point.

But, player for player, the talent on this Denver team is far superior to the talent on the '07 Patriots roster. I also think that this Denver offense is the best offense in NFL history.



In both Super Bowls, the Patriots hit their perfect storm matchup.. Much like how the Rams in 2001 went up against the only team they wouldn't be able to beat. the 2010 Super Bowl was the worse of the two... because the offensive line couldn't protect against a fast, long defense, which is exactly what the Giants had.

Last year, I was very optimistic for the Patriots future because they had transitioned into a team that was totally different than 2007, and one that would see them be successful with an aging Brady. Unfortunately, the persistent injuries to Gronkowski, Hernandez fiasco, and the major injuries to the defense this season prevent it from being apparent. This was a bit of a window year, a year for a solid run at the Super Bowl, but every good player on the defense has gone down with injury, and without Gronkowski, I don't think that the offense is going to be able to put up 24 points with any predictability.

I think 07 was more of a shitstorm in terms of the giants. 10 was the gronk injury, but even still the pats came out firing at the start of the second half. Welker dropped the pass that killed all momentum. The pass rush in 07 was devastating though, which the whole offense was predicated on time for the QB to let Randy get open downfield... hasn't worked since for Mcdaniels here or anywhere else. The other thing was brady's foot/ankle injury he wasn't throwing well and was rattled. On top of this, on the very first play and it was a shit storm from that point forward.

 

[psykomyko]

My ultimate point is that, just like Manning, there are concessions, cracks and flaws in the Brady resume. Like all great players have. And I think picking a GOAT is silly, because football, hell, the quarterback position alone, has yet to find its Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan.

My objective with the post, at least a little, was to poke you, yes, but I do feel the Pats Super Bowl wins have a stigma. Especially with two losses in the two appearances after being discovered. It's a matter of opinion I suppose. We differ. It's cool.

Full disclosure, I'm a Manning fan and I despise Brady. But I think arguments could be made for either being GOAT right now. But it's honestly too close to call.

Football is too much of a team sport to ever have that type of player. Personally, (Yes, I am Broncos fan) I feel John Elway is the closest we have gotten to that type of athlete. He is the reason I started watching football, just as MJ was the reason I started watching NBA (I don't watch NBA anymore though).

 

[StanleyStutters]

Just happens to coincide with their lack of SB wins. Interesting how that works

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. You said Peyton would have no margin for error against the Patriots in the playoffs, I say the Pats defense has played poorly for years, and now you agree. I don't know what the Pats poor defense and lack of SB wins has to do with Peyton having no margin for error. If anything, it goes completely against your original point.

 

[Tawpgun]

When the Pats beat the Broncos earlier this season that solidified the arguement for me.

 

[OnPoint]

What? That would be Jerry Rice. Even back in the late 80s/early 90s he was referred to as Jordan in cleats.

Oh. Then does that make Joe Montana his Scottie Pippen?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Oh. Then does that make Joe Montana his Scottie Pippen?

Montana won a ring before Rice even got there. No WR is the goat. It's not an important enough position.

 

[Telaso]

I believe this thread needs a bump.

#1 in yard in a single season for Mr Manning. Great job!

 

[MetalFearSolid]

Plus 55 TD I believe. Beast.

 

[zychi]

Best reg season qb of all time!


Still not better than Brady or Montana all time.

 

[Stinkles]

Greatest non Mormon QB? Maybe.

 

[hoverX]

Brees is the Rodney Dangerfield of the NFL. That's for sure.

 

[Aesius]

Best reg season qb of all time!


Still not better than Brady or Montana all time.

Montana maybe, but Peyton would have 6-7 rings if he played for the Pats since 1998.

 

[tuna on toast]

I believe this thread needs a bump.

#1 in yard in a single season for Mr Manning. Great job!

nope

He only beat the record by 1 yard, but they mistakenly gave him passing yards on this backwards pass:

They adjust the stats after the games every week. No record.

 

[The Albatross]

nope

He only beat the record by 1 yard, but they mistakenly gave him passing yards on this backwards pass:

They adjust the stats after the games every week. No record.

I'd be shocked if they adjust that out so that Manning does not have the record. That won't and shouldn't happen. You could probably go back through every record setting season of yards and find issues like passes like that or slight discrepencies in yardage for every game... a Ball spotted incorrectly, etc.