It's amazing to see a lifetime of accomplishment dismissed over petty post-launch MMO complaints, particularly when the person in question is the one who designed and produced said MMO in the first place.
FFXIV 1.0 producer & co-designer of the original FF wants to make a new game
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It's amazing to see a lifetime of accomplishment dismissed over petty post-launch MMO complaints, particularly when the person in question is the one who designed and produced said MMO in the first place.
That is absolutely vital, I agree. But even with the current head on FF11 that ends up being the case and it's like they only care about Japanese players for the most part.
I think he did a good job with the whole foundation of the game and the core mechanics, however his management skills of games were pretty awful and what ruined the game in the end. It ended up having more than half of the classes near useless for endgame for all content and just poor balance all around. His idea of "balance" is to nerf everything and make it impossible.
I think FFXI was fairly successful for the time it came out, of course you can't compare it to modern mmorpg for obvious reasons.
DanielJr82
Member
I wish him the best luck.
Unfortunately this is not a quality that makes MMORPGs successful. I think this is a testament to why ARR did so well. It keeps the ideas that made FFXI so fun to play, while ditching out aspects that were community-unfriendly.
Definitely a byproduct of its time and I'm glad I played it. That said I'd never really want to pay to play it ever again.
I think what would revive interest in FFXI is if they:
1. Get rid of PlayOnline
2. Upgrade FFXI to a higher end Direct X and support stuff like 60 FPS. A rework could let them change how models are loaded and possibly get rid of blinking as well as letting them easily create HD textures.
3. Buff a lot of classes.
1. Get rid of PlayOnline
2. Upgrade FFXI to a higher end Direct X and support stuff like 60 FPS. A rework could let them change how models are loaded and possibly get rid of blinking as well as letting them easily create HD textures.
3. Buff a lot of classes.
Murder. She Wrote
Member
I think Tanaka could make a bomb ass single player jrpg. Think about it, FFXI was well designed but extremely archaic. This is terrible for a mmo, but this is exactly what people want in jrpgs. A call back to the great jrpgs of yore.
It's been like what, over a decade since his last single player game right?
I just made that all up. I don't really like how Tanaka handled FFXI and FFXIV 1.0, but I do think there might be some promise.
It's been like what, over a decade since his last single player game right?
It was grindy and impossible to play without a party.
Or, put the other way around, the "endgame" was a prestige achievement rather than the core of the game, and you had the same teamwork requirements that draw people to MOBAs or raiding or FPS clans folded in beginning on your second or third day.
I'd like to see Tanaka given a more reasonable scope to work in, rather than FF14 1.0 which was "Ship our homegrown engine's first PC title NOW - and it had better turn over half a million subs". I like 2.0 for what it is, but 1.0 was packed with concepts and style that would have been more fun to me personally if they had had more time in the oven.
In particular I liked the original equipment system where higher-end gear had a level recommendation rather than requirement and "synched down" to you if you got it a few levels early, the original crafting system that encouraged experimentation with recipes and the use of alternate materials for aesthetic reasons, and the original skill system that let you freely mix and match large amounts of abilities. (I also really enjoyed the Thaumaturge's pre-revamp kit with its focus on blood magic and status effects, though I think that was less a victim of "too complex" and more a victim of "we need something that can straight upgrade into Black Mage".)
I think if you put him in an FF14 1.0 mood, but gave it an extra year in the oven to polish the engine and fix the knock-on effects that inevitable plague systems as complex and opaque as he likes to design, he could successfully target the same market that a title like EVE or Everquest Next is aimed at.
Have you played 11? The game was always very grindy. The problem was that what was excepted for a MMORPG when FF11 was first released is very different from what is expected of MMORPGs now. Tanaka never got that and ran FF11 and 14 as games made in 2002.
Some people have convinced themselves otherwise. Why, I don't know. But it's impossible to ignore all the very significant flaws it had.
Not yet, and as long as Japanese players continue to play it probably never will be.
sssstententen
Member
I liked 1.0.
It was still a bad game design wise and no one can change my mind in that aspect. Game was straight up unfinished, even for MMO standards.
Shame Japan isn't a bit more current with PC game concepts. I wonder what a FFXIV 1.0 early release alpha would've been like. Like ala' Minecraft/Starbound/other kickstarter games. Have hardcore fans play the alpha/beta paying in, but its 100% a alpha/beta and don't charge monthly etc. Update it slowly and surely and use community feedback. In my opinion it could have come to be a FFXI-2. (I know this is basically what happened, but I mean if they had intended it, and everyone had known going in it was unfinished/etc)
But alas. XIV 2.0 is a 100% passable mmo, and was really fun for the time I played it, but it took away some of the new interesting concepts 1.0 had.
It was still a bad game design wise and no one can change my mind in that aspect. Game was straight up unfinished, even for MMO standards.
Shame Japan isn't a bit more current with PC game concepts. I wonder what a FFXIV 1.0 early release alpha would've been like. Like ala' Minecraft/Starbound/other kickstarter games. Have hardcore fans play the alpha/beta paying in, but its 100% a alpha/beta and don't charge monthly etc. Update it slowly and surely and use community feedback. In my opinion it could have come to be a FFXI-2. (I know this is basically what happened, but I mean if they had intended it, and everyone had known going in it was unfinished/etc)
But alas. XIV 2.0 is a 100% passable mmo, and was really fun for the time I played it, but it took away some of the new interesting concepts 1.0 had.
Gentleman Jack
Member
The continuing praise for Chains of Promathia-era FFXI in 2013 is equally staggering.
Actually, this is another thing that was toned down in 2.0 but I liked. A longer GCD/attack does three things:
a) raises the skill ceiling by lettting you present the average player with more situational checks and more situational abilities to handle them, or more complex choices about which ability to use
b) gives you more leeway to use haste as an ur-offensive stat or allow builds based on haste for procs without the procs themselves having to be huge
c) opens up the possibility of chained abilities between multiple players in a genre that otherwise hasn't even really gotten to player b using player a's proc
against the disadvantages of
a) looks less badass
b) is a small stealth debuff for slow weapon users when soloing
c) reduces the number of times abilities are used in a combat, cutting the overall skill ceiling for battles with no reaction elements while penalizing errors more severely
FFXIV is a enormous stain on the franchise, and it had numerous problems. What you invoked, though, is his handling of post-launch FFXI. Actually, I can scarcely think of a particularly beloved post-launch MMO development team, or rather, one that various segments of their respective communities haven't utterly demonized over this or that issue. In this case, we have someone who played a significant role in franchises like Final Fantasy and Secret of Mana, and who happened to design and produce FFXI specifically. Expressing horror at the idea that Tanaka would make another video game because you weren't a big fan of changes he made to the game years after it released strikes me as incredibly narrow and unwarranted.
I think it's pretty clear that MMOs are unique, complicated creatures, and it's very difficult to keep everyone satisfied in a post-launch environment. And that's partly because the scope of development itself obviously tends to change dramatically after a game has already been out for around a decade.
I think there's something to be said about people who try to belittle others opinions instead of stating their own.
Hey now. I wasn't exactly belittling others, and even implicitly praised some elements of it. Yet you can say what you want to about the game, but it doesn't change the fact that the game was fundamentally unfinished and outright flawed.
I played it in the beta and remember being baffled that in a Post-WoW era there existed an MMO where mouse controls were broken. Not merely issues, but they flat out didn't work. ><
My issues with him are more of how his ideas for FFXIV were never questioned and refined to fit what today's gamers expect. He wanted to replicate the success of FFXI by making a game completely different than FFXI and while it is true the game was rushed out, the systematic problems in the programming and vision were set in stone from the getgo under his watch. If he made another game today, he would make a game using his 'old school approach' that will not appeal to gamers today and would most likely end up a mess of ill-fitting ideas.
Now I don't disagree that it was flawed, but keep in mind this is subjective. I didn't actually like 1.0 as a whole as I stopped playing it shortly after release, but I don't see what's wrong about praising features or aesthetics of it that aren't present in 2.0. In fact, I was out right burned on the game because I spent over 70$ on that collector's for pre-launch play and regretted it for years.
takes a very special dev to release a game without item sorting, and then do it again in the relaunch
I actually lucked out in that regards. Getting into the beta told me all I needed to know about the final product. That said, there are aspects from legacy I'd like to see in the new game. A number of Uematsu composed tracks are missing, the models and cutscenes aren't quite as detailed, I miss old-school style leveling parties that Guildhests should provide but don't, and I feel as if the Cross-Class Skill system is being compromised thanks to jobs.
I can't help but feel that A Realm Reborn is going to have the problem of fighting all the stupid technical choices they made in the original legacy game. Something that will probably haunt them for the remainder of ARR's years.
Purple Cheeto
Member
So he helped make some good games 10+ years ago but apparently his ability to design modern stuff isn't so good.
Which I guess describes most older game designers.
Which I guess describes most older game designers.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Chains of Promathia?
Junk level-capped zones.
'Kings' with 3-5 day repop windows
Absurd difficulty curve in storyline BCNMs
The huge middle finger that Absolute Virtue represented to the entire playerbase
The man who made these things AND XIV 1.0 does not deserve another dollar from me.
The players of 2.0 automatically make it a worse game than 1.0.
Lucent
Member
I just want a single player Final Fantasy set in a world more along the lines of FF11/12/14/Tactics. Do Fantasy again. I'm REALLY looking forward to FF15, but I would love a game that's back in the medieval/magic times instead of constantly doing the futuristic/high-tech stuff all the time now.
Playing with the GAF FC is some of the best experiences I've had in an online game.
TheJollyCorner
Member
Agreed, Jack.
I appreciate Tanaka's history, but his design philosophies just don't work for me.
Same here
ReDelicious
Member
I consider 2.0 to be the better game overall easily, but I actually preferred the combat the way it was right before the servers shut down actually. But I actually put a lot more time into 1.23 than in 2.0. The fact you're able to get to endgame in 1-2 weeks just didn't set right with me (1.0 wasn't much different in this regard, but leveling multiple classes seems more annoying now).
I've always preferred the journey to the level cap more than anything, meeting friends along the way and such. Never been a fan of how endgame is handled in just about any game really though, it usually feels more like a job than a game sometimes the way the community is (FFXI was even worse about this). I won't call it bad, in fact it's a really good game that caters to what most people want so can't blame them for making it this way really. I had a blast getting my first job to 50 going through the main story, but after that I just saw that there was nothing left for me really. I've just had to come to accept that it just wasn't made for my tastes this time.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Same here. Aside from playing with a friend, the GAF FC makes things more enjoyable.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Tanaka was heavily involved in Chrono Cross, also as a producer I think. For that alone, he deserves a second chance in my book.
The experiences I had with the FC in beta were absolutely fantastic, and I've had almost nothing but good impressions on the Adamantoise server with randoms and my own FC.
The playerbase is shaping up to be very healthy thanks to a strong leveling game.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Okay, I just learnt more about his past work.
He is more than deserving of a second chance.
Some of his previous involvement other than FFXIV 1.0:
FFI (One of the original creator)
FFII (Game Design) - Quite flawed, but there're a lot of interesting ideas.
FFIII (Game Design)
Secret of Mana (Producer, System Design, scenario?)
Seiken Densetsu 3 (Director) (!!)
Xenogears (Producer, battle planner)
Threads of Fate (Producer)
Chrono Cross (Producer, battle designer)
FFXI (Producer) - It's also SE's most profitable FF up to date
FFIII DS (Director, Executive Producer)
He is more than deserving of a second chance.
Some of his previous involvement other than FFXIV 1.0:
FFI (One of the original creator)
FFII (Game Design) - Quite flawed, but there're a lot of interesting ideas.
FFIII (Game Design)
Secret of Mana (Producer, System Design, scenario?)
Seiken Densetsu 3 (Director) (!!)
Xenogears (Producer, battle planner)
Threads of Fate (Producer)
Chrono Cross (Producer, battle designer)
FFXI (Producer) - It's also SE's most profitable FF up to date
FFIII DS (Director, Executive Producer)
MagnaderAlpha
Member
More people credit Kawazu for the actual gameplay/battle aspects of that game. FFIII is kinda considered Tanaka's baby, just like FFIV is considered Tokita's baby.
And yes, he HAS done more good with the FF series than he has done bad. While him talking about doing a new project has no ties to FF, I wouldn't mind seeing him collab with Square, if anything, on a new FF project. Right now, all things considering, I think he, Itou(where ever the hell he is), Tokita(who sadly prefers smaller projects) and Tabata are the ones who can do good with the FF series. IMO, Toriyama and Kitase are beyond help. Nomura's got FFXV to prove whether he'll sink or swim. Matsuno(not the FFT/XII one, but the ARR FFXIV 2.0 one) might also be in the running if he has the capability to make good offline FFs(I DO love the fact he spruced up the looks of FFXIV's world and added more nods to the series in general, so he knows his FF stuff).
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Oh, Tanaka. Fuck it, let him.
1.0 really was pretty terrible, although how "terrible" can it really be if I did play it continuously for over a year? Rallying the remnants of GAF and recruiting whomever we could find....good times hehehe.
In retrospect, while I found many aspects of Tanaka's vision for the game troubling, I must acknowledge that the game was pushed to release way before it was ready. Who knows how much better the game could have been with at least another year or so of development. Then again, maybe it still would have been shit.
Shoutouts to OG FF14 1.0 GAF~
1.0 really was pretty terrible, although how "terrible" can it really be if I did play it continuously for over a year? Rallying the remnants of GAF and recruiting whomever we could find....good times hehehe.
In retrospect, while I found many aspects of Tanaka's vision for the game troubling, I must acknowledge that the game was pushed to release way before it was ready. Who knows how much better the game could have been with at least another year or so of development. Then again, maybe it still would have been shit.
Shoutouts to OG FF14 1.0 GAF~
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Here's what I think of some of them:
Currently in Square
Yoshinori Kitase - I feel that he's got brainwashed by Toriyama, because I really like all of his previous involvement prior to XIII. The likes of CT, FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII and FFX. If he's more hands-on for his next FF, I don't mind seeing him direct one.
Motomu Toriyama - Outside of his work in FFVII and FFX, I really don't want him to touch another mainline FF. Never again.
Tetsuya Nomura - He definitely needs to prove himself with FFXV. I am a little apprehensive if he would deliver, but still am greatly looking forward to the game. Don't think he will direct FFXVI though, since he'll still need to helm KH3 and then a much needed rest.
Hajime Tabata - Crisis Core and Type-0 was a good run. If FFXV turns out good, I would give him a green light to direct FFXVI. But he needs more experience as he goes.
Takashi Tokita - I feel that he's stuck making ports and smaller projects. Not sure if he's even interested in mainline FF.
Hiroyuki Ito - Definitely the most suitable and experienced candidate to direct FFXVI. His history speaks of his capabilities.
Naoki Yoshida - Doubt he's leaving FFXIV and proceed to make a offline FF.
Akihiko Matsui - Same as Yoshida.
Hiroshi Minagawa - He's usually an art director, but I can see him making a good FF too.
Jun Akiyama - I feel that his young man deserves a chance to helm greater roles.
Tomoya Asano - Bravely Default was awesome. If he's interested to direct FFXVI, I am all for it.
Wild card
Yasumi Matsuno - I think he can solo direct a FF with some help, such as Ito. Ito handle gameplay, Matsuno handle story.
Hiromichi Tanaka - Would be interesting to see what he can bring to the table.
Hironobu Sakaguchi - I would like a Gooch FF again, even with him as Producer.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I'm enjoying XIV in its current form a lot, but from a lot of the comments coming from the veteran players, it really seems like version 1.0 had a lot of interesting and deeper gameplay ideas that just weren't given adequate time to be fully fleshed out.
MomoPufflet
Member
My desire for this depends on if he actually understands what was wrong with 1.0 and not some generalized "it's too bad people didn't enjoy this different thing we tried, onward with gusto" attitude. If he learned some very specific lessons then OK. He should take a hard look at YoshiP's approach to modern game production and compare it to what he did before he moves on to anything else. I acknowledge his past successes but Square and the technology they were working with were very different beasts back then.
HolyBaikal
Banned
That's... good, I think?
My biggest problem with Final Fantasy XIV was the lack of content. I hope that he will commit to making games good.
I hope to see more good video games. I don't know much about him, but it sounds like he's talented. And I want more Japanese RPGs so I'm happy to see people interested in working on them.
My biggest problem with Final Fantasy XIV was the lack of content. I hope that he will commit to making games good.
I hope to see more good video games. I don't know much about him, but it sounds like he's talented. And I want more Japanese RPGs so I'm happy to see people interested in working on them.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
To a large extent, I agree, which would give sway to the argument that a lot of 1.0's faults was due to the rushed schedule; they didn't have enough time to make enough content for release.
I remember we would go out into the wilderness and fight level 80 Morbols and goblins because we didn't have shit to do for endgame.
Unknown Soldier
Member
FFXIV 1.0 was pretty wretched but everyone deserves a second chance.
IonicSnake
Banned
Worst things about tanakas mmos apart from the insane grindfest was his design around having the character glued to the ground and all the damn invisible walls. That was my biggest turn off with FFXIV, hate modern games that restricts your movement.