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[DrM]

I always pay if I invite girl out. If she invites me, I will always pay at least for the drink.

Also, guys and gals, remember that girl 'Susan' from my previous posts? Received MMS from her several minutes ago with picture of her in lingerie. With no text. Khm... BRB


/jk

Will pretend that I did not receive it...

 

[Deleted member 47027]

If you're broke, you don't go out for drinks. Go out for coffee or tea.

Yep, also on top of that don't bemoan the fact that you're poor. Nobody likes hearing that, true or not.

 

[cwmartin]

I would have preferred "can we go out sometime".

If you say "want to take me out sometime?", sounds like you want a free dinner.

 

[anarckitty]

I would have preferred "can we go out sometime".

If you say "want to take me out sometime?", sounds like you want a free dinner.

lol. I see what you mean. That's totally not what I meant though. He was just a friend that hung out with the same circle of friends at the time. I guess I was trying to be more casual/nonchalant about it. I thought he was interested in me, but I wasn't sure so I figured it was the best approach at the time. Also, it was via text. I don't have the guts to just ask someone something like that in person!

 

[Idde]

No. I'm a woman. If we're talking about the first date and someone asked me on the date, I would expect them to pay. Would I also offer to pay part of the bill? Yeah.

I'm just answering from my past experiences. I've asked one guy if he wanted to take me out sometime, and that guy is now my husband. Did he pay for the first date? Yes. Did I offer to pay my share? Yes. Did he accept it? Nope.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Because you're a woman it's expected that other people pay for you? Why? Don't you make any money yourself? Should guys be so thrilled to be allowed to take a woman on a date, that they have to pay for it? Where does this inequality come from in this day and age.

Great that you offered to pay for anything, but I've also come across a few people who expected somebody to pay, and that REALLY reeks of entitlement to me. One of the biggest turn offs for me in the world.

 

[anarckitty]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Because you're a woman it's expected that other people pay for you? Why? Don't you make any money yourself? Should guys be so thrilled to be allowed to take a woman on a date, that they have to pay for it? Where does this inequality come from in this day and age.

Great that you offered to pay for anything, but I've also come across a few people who expected somebody to pay, and that REALLY reeks of entitlement to me. One of the biggest turn offs for me in the world.

I'm just old fashioned, not entitled. That's how I feel about it. Is it what I did while I was dating? No. I'm an extremely generous person. Most of the guys I dated I made more money than them, and I would take them out more often than I EVER got taken out.

Vince McMahon pretty much summed up how I feel about it.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Because you're a woman it's expected that other people pay for you? Why? Don't you make any money yourself? Should guys be so thrilled to be allowed to take a woman on a date, that they have to pay for it? Where does this inequality come from in this day and age.

Great that you offered to pay for anything, but I've also come across a few people who expected somebody to pay, and that REALLY reeks of entitlement to me. One of the biggest turn offs for me in the world.

These are the usual standards out there in the dating world. You either buck up and accept it and play the game, or try to play your own game that may give you some poor returns. It's up to you, either way is totally fine - just depends on what you're willing to do. I don't have a problem with throwing some money at dinner to have a good time. It shows you value their time and want to spend time with them.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Because you're a woman it's expected that other people pay for you? Why? Don't you make any money yourself? Should guys be so thrilled to be allowed to take a woman on a date, that they have to pay for it? Where does this inequality come from in this day and age.

Great that you offered to pay for anything, but I've also come across a few people who expected somebody to pay, and that REALLY reeks of entitlement to me. One of the biggest turn offs for me in the world.

Wow. WOW.

 

[GutsOfThor]

I'm talking with this girl on Tinder and asked her out and she agreed so I asked if she would like to meet at a halfway point(she lives 45 minutes away from me) and an hour later no response. Am I over thinking her silence or did I get rejected?

 

[sooperkool]

No. I'm a woman. If we're talking about the first date and someone asked me on the date, I would expect them to pay. Would I also offer to pay part of the bill? Yeah.

I'm just answering from my past experiences. I've asked one guy if he wanted to take me out sometime, and that guy is now my husband. Did he pay for the first date? Yes. Did I offer to pay my share? Yes. Did he accept it? Nope.

I am a traditionalist. If I ask a woman out then I'm paying. If she asks I'm still probably paying at least until we know each other very very well. Part of the costs of being a man I suppose. Doesn't bother me one bit.

 

[anarckitty]

I'm talking with this girl on Tinder and asked her out and she agreed so I asked if she would like to meet at a halfway point(she lives 45 minutes away from me) and an hour later no response. Am I over thinking her silence or did I get rejected?

It's too early to tell. What day are you guys supposed to meet?

 

[Deleted member 47027]

It's not even that paying for a meal is some "BOYS DO THIS GIRLS DO THIS" thing. It's a "I will spend money to enjoy my company with you" that is the point of it all. If you're not willing to throw down some money to enjoy your night, then you should probably either find someone who isn't willing as well, or spend the night alone.

 

[depths20XX]

Anymore whether I've been asked out or ask them out, me and the girl always end up splitting. In fact they seem to prefer it, and I like that. The idea of a man always feeling like he has to pay is some backwards thinking.

Don't get me wrong I used to always pay in the past when I was younger and if you know the person isn't well off then yes I would offer.

 

[GutsOfThor]

It's too early to tell. What day are you guys supposed to meet?

We haven't set a date yet. I was going to ask her when she was available when she got back to me about meeting halfway.

 

[Transhuman]

It's not even that paying for a meal is some "BOYS DO THIS GIRLS DO THIS" thing. It's a "I will spend money to enjoy my company with you" that is the point of it all. If you're not willing to throw down some money to enjoy your night, then you should probably either find someone who isn't willing as well, or spend the night alone.

As long as you expect the girl to pay if she asks you out, I can agree with your viewpoints.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

As long as you expect the girl to pay if she asks you out.

Again, if you get asked out, expect to pay half. It's not a gender thing. Go in there expecting, at minimum, to pay half. Either side.

 

[rooflapimp]

I always pay when going on dates, but I also expect a nice blowjob at the end. I'm traditional in that sense, I guess.

 

[Anoregon]

I always pay when going on dates, but I also expect a nice blowjob at the end. I'm traditional in that sense, I guess.

It's a contract both parties agree to upon payment for the meal. I'm pretty sure it's in the constitution.

 

[anarckitty]

I always pay when going on dates, but I also expect a nice blowjob at the end. I'm traditional in that sense, I guess.

Sounds fair to me. After all, everyone knows if a woman isn't in the kitchen then she better be on her knees.

We haven't set a date yet. I was going to ask her when she was available when she got back to me about meeting halfway.

I wouldn't sweat it. Something may have come up. Give her a good day or so and if you haven't heard back you can always send her an e-mail.

About the bolded, if I'd have known this from the start I wouldn't have said anything.

Fair enough.

 

[Idde]

I'm just old fashioned, not entitled. That's how I feel about it. Is it what I did while I was dating? No. I'm an extremely generous person. Most of the guys I dated I made more money than them, and I would take them out more often than I EVER got taken out.

Vince McMahon pretty much summed up how I feel about it.

And I think a lot of things that come from tradition grew that way, but have now become obsolete. Men used to be in a superior economic position to women. I'm all for equality, and the paying for things is included in that as well.

About the bolded, if I'd have known this from the start I wouldn't have said anything.

These are the usual standards out there in the dating world. You either buck up and accept it and play the game, or try to play your own game that may give you some poor returns. It's up to you, either way is totally fine - just depends on what you're willing to do. I don't have a problem with throwing some money at dinner to have a good time. It shows you value their time and want to spend time with them.

Yes, and when I go out with friends I offer to pay for rounds of drinks as well. I like them, so I try to do something nice for them.

And how that usually ends up working is that they offer to pay for my stuff as well, that's a pretty standard social contract. If a woman expects me to pay for her stuff, to me that says: "You value my time, so you have to pay for it. I value your time, but not enough to spend any money on it."

Wow. WOW.

Could you please elaborate?

I am a traditionalist. If I ask a woman out then I'm paying. If she asks I'm still probably paying at least until we know each other very very well. Part of the costs of being a man I suppose. Doesn't bother me one bit.

And it does bother me. I offer to pay for a lot. As I do for a lot of other people. But if women actually take it for granted, it's just really lopsided. No things should be a certain way "just because they're a certain way." This goes for male friends as well. A friend of mine continuesly tries to get out of his part of the bill. He's a great guy, we love him dearly, but you bet he's gonna get shit for his scroogy behavior

 

[giga]

I'm talking with this girl on Tinder and asked her out and she agreed so I asked if she would like to meet at a halfway point(she lives 45 minutes away from me) and an hour later no response. Am I over thinking her silence or did I get rejected?

Give her a day...An hour is nothing.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Yes, and when I go out with friends I offer to pay for rounds of drinks as well. I like them, so I try to do something nice for them.

And how that usually ends up working is that they offer to pay for my stuff as well, that's a pretty standard social contract. If a woman expects me to pay for her stuff, to me that says: "You value my time, so you have to pay for it. I value your time, but not enough to spend any money on it."

Ideally you don't waste time with someone who would give off the vibe of "I value your time but not enough to spend any money on it" - it needs to be naturally reciprocated. But there's a line drawn between natural reciprocation in other ways beyond just a meal (not talking sex, other ways folks) vs demanding parity. If you're demanding parity, you'll only keep a certain type of person.

 

[Idde]

Ideally you don't waste time with someone who would give off the vibe of "I value your time but not enough to spend any money on it" - it needs to be naturally reciprocated. But there's a line drawn between natural reciprocation in other ways beyond just a meal (not talking sex, other ways folks) vs demanding parity. If you're demanding parity, you'll only keep a certain type of person.

Can you give me some examples of natural reciprocation in other ways? Because as far as I can tell, on those first dates, the both of you are only expected to sacrifice time for oneanother. And the guy supposedly money. What is the extra thing the woman is supposed to bring to the table? And yes, parity is greatly appreciated. I might be shooting myself in the foot here, but that's ok

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Can you give me some examples of natural reciprocation in other ways? Because as far as I can tell, on those first dates, the both of you are only expected to sacrifice time for oneanother. And the guy supposedly money. What is the extra ting the woman is supposed to bring to the table?

It's natural so it could go any route. It could be anything from getting you a small gift to showing up at your work (assuming you ask for this, etc) or anything that involves a sacrifice of any kind of their end. Not trying to get all clinical about it, but you'll know if you feel like you're overdoing it and feel unappreciated. It's just natural stuff.

And it doesn't take place over one date. These things take time.

 

[NeOak]

Sounds fair to me. After all, everyone knows if a woman isn't in the kitchen then she better be on her knees.

This made me chuckle. I almost spilled my coke lol

I do agree with your views. If I invite someone, I go with the intention of paying. When they offer to pay I end up making it a game of who can pay first.

My ex hated it because she always lost lol

 

[anarckitty]

This made me chuckle. I almost spilled my coke lol

I do agree with your views. If I invite someone, I go with the intention of paying. When they offer to pay I end up making it a game of who can pay first.

My ex hated it because she always lost lol

=D

 

[zeemumu]

When you met whoever you're dating or attracted too, did you already have a lot in common from the get-go or did you learn to adapt to each other's quirks over time?

 

[Deleted member 47027]

When you met whoever you're dating or attracted too, did you already have a lot in common from the get-go or did you learn to adapt to each other's quirks over time?

Depends - some of my best relationships were with people I had very little in common with. If you're interested in learning or experiencing other perspectives, that can work really well. The only common ground you truly need is respect. Everything else is easy to work with.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

How do you sound suave in an e-mail.

I have no idea. But I'm trying to be suave and cool and mysterious.

I'm not any of these things. I am wearing a mask and the mask is cracking.

Spoiler

I'm masking my nervousness with pretentious shit.

Edit:

God, I have no idea what I'm supposed to write.

 

[sooperkool]

How do you sound suave in an e-mail.

I have no idea. But I'm trying to be suave and cool and mysterious.

I'm not any of these things. I am wearing a mask and the mask is cracking.

Spoiler

I'm masking my nervousness with pretentious shit.

Don't do this. Be you.

Make small talk, let them know you're interested and talk about how you would like to know more. What was the thing that made you write them that wasn't based on looks. Talk about that.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Don't do this. Be you.

Make small talk, let them know you're interested and talk about how you would like to know more. What was the thing that made you write them that wasn't based on looks. Talk about that.

Well, I sent an e-mail and it was awful. My e-mail feels short and rambling and I forgot to include a subject.

I know literally nothing about this girl. Literally, all I have is a name and an e-mail address. My dad's friend gave it to him to give to me. My detective efforts to uncover anything on her via social media has gotten me nowhere. The thing that made me write to her, was my dad basically verbally kicking my ass for being a pussy (it was gentler than that, he gave me a hug when I was being insecure) and boredom.

What now, bro? What now? I panicked and hit send instead of re-reading and writing something interesting.

 

[nOoblet16]

Guys this is slightly off topic but since it's related to a girl that I'm trying to get along with I guess this is where I ask. I found her on Facebook but I can't add her for some reason, even though we have 2 mutual friends. The only settings facebook allows you to have is either everyone can send you requests or only friends of friends... wtf is going on here? FB cockblocking me? lol

 

[anarckitty]

How do you sound suave in an e-mail.

I have no idea. But I'm trying to be suave and cool and mysterious.

I'm not any of these things. I am wearing a mask and the mask is cracking.

Spoiler

I'm masking my nervousness with pretentious shit.

Edit:

God, I have no idea what I'm supposed to write.

Hmm, that's tough. I guess it depends on what the other person's interests are and what kind of personality they have. Personally, I'm attracted to people who like the same movies, music, books, that I like. Also, humor is a big thing to me. If you're able to form a complete thought/sentence correctly that's nice too.

Whatever you do please don't e-mail a woman a picture of your penis. That is so gross.

Well, I sent an e-mail and it was awful. My e-mail feels short and rambling and I forgot to include a subject.

I know literally nothing about this girl. Literally, all I have is a name and an e-mail address. My dad's friend gave it to him to give to me. My detective efforts to uncover anything on her via social media has gotten me nowhere. The thing that made me write to her, was my dad basically verbally kicking my ass for being a pussy (it was gentler than that, he gave me a hug when I was being insecure) and boredom.

What now, bro? What now? I panicked and hit send instead of re-reading and writing something interesting.

Well, if she e-mails you back then you can send a follow up e-mail asking her some of her favorite movies, or authors or some bullshit like that. People love to talk about themselves. If she replies asking what kinds of things you like then she is at least interested in learning more about you.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Hmm, that's tough. I guess it depends on what the other person's interests are and what kind of personality they have. Personally, I'm attracted to people who like the same movies, music, books, that I like. Also, humor is a big thing to me. If you're able to form a complete thought/sentence correctly that's nice too.

Whatever you do please don't e-mail a woman a picture of your penis. That is so gross.

I have no idea what she looks like, what her personality is, what her interests are, I think she might actually live five hours away which I should have put into consideration.

Man. I cocked this up, and I only am five seconds into this.

Spoiler

I considered sending a dick pic, but then I realized that that was a truly terrible idea.

Also, I didn't actually consider that.

 

[anarckitty]

I have no idea what she looks like, what her personality is, what her interests are, I think she might actually live five hours away which I should have put into consideration.

Man. I cocked this up, and I only am five seconds into this.

Spoiler

I considered sending a dick pic, but then I realized that that was a truly terrible idea.

Also, I didn't actually consider that.

lol. I will never understand why guys e-mail pics of their dicks to women....unless the woman has explicitly asked for one.

Don't sweat it. She'll probably at least e-mail you back this first time. Just make sure the next e-mail is better.

 

[mikeGFG]

Any tips for broke guys in the game? I simply can't afford to date right now, but I enjoy women to much to go on a dating hiatus. Any ideas? You're expected to not only take them out, but pay as well. My wallet can't handle any more restaurants damn it.

Don't do dinner dates son.

 

[TheExodu5]

It's taken me a while to figure it out, but on my end I can say that humour is one of the biggest things for me. If we have a similar sense of humour, and we respect each other, then it doesn't really matter if our interests don't really align.

 

[stn]

My rule on paying for a date: guy pays for first date, should be coffee so its not pricey. If things escalate then I expect the lady to offer to pay next time. I will refuse but I do expect her to offer, and the offer is all I care about. If she resists my refusal enough, she gets to pay (I've lost before, lol). Also, I don't mind paying for a girl who is thankful and respects the fact that I'm paying.

If a girl doesn't even offer, well, you should consider who you're going out with!

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

lol. I will never understand why guys e-mail pics of their dicks to women....unless the woman has explicitly asked for one.

Don't sweat it. She'll probably at least e-mail you back this first time. Just make sure the next e-mail is better.

Insecurity and arrogance make for a dangerous combination.

Edit: Well, all that panic was over nothing as I received a failure delivery notification. This e-mail does not exist.

Do I try .com? The .ca was a failure, but what if .com is like some random creep weirdo dude anyway?

 

[anarckitty]

Insecurity and arrogance make for a dangerous combination.

Edit: Well, all that panic was over nothing as I received a failure delivery notification. This e-mail does not exist.

Do I try .com? The .ca was a failure, but what if .com is like some random creep weirdo dude anyway?

lol. Is it wrong for me to want to just give you a big hug??? You got this e-mail address from your dad, right? You may just want to check with him first.

 

[Minamu]

You tell 'em Idde, that post pissed me off as well :lol

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

lol. Is it wrong for me to want to just give you a big hug??? You got this e-mail address from your dad, right? You may just want to check with him first.

Well, if we ever meet you can. I'm not really a hugger, but everyone is obsessed with giving me hugs. I'm not a fan. Maybe I'm just huggable?

Yeah, he's in a meeting but I'll check with him tonight. Otherwise I'll keep procastinating out of nervousness.

Weirdly enough, the dude who gave him the e-mail address? Was outside my house, just by random chance an hour ago. Serendipity? Coincidence? I dunno, but it made me feel paranoid.

 

[anarckitty]

You tell 'em Idde, that post pissed me off as well :lol

That's the fun thing about these threads. You can put your opinion on something, and when people don't understand your past experiences or what you've been through it's easy to be misunderstood. However, I could have done a better job of explaining myself in the beginning, but I'll stand by when I said I pretty much have the same attitude that Vince had. He had a much more eloquent way of explaining it than I did.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

That's the fun thing about these threads. You can put your opinion on something, and when people don't understand your past experiences or what you've been through it's easy to be misunderstood. However, I could have done a better job of explaining myself in the beginning, but I'll stand by when I said I pretty much have the same attitude that Vince had. He had a much more eloquent way of explaining it than I did.

Thanks. I've decided to post in here more often despite not dating and not trying to.

 

[Minamu]

These are the usual standards out there in the dating world. You either buck up and accept it and play the game, or try to play your own game that may give you some poor returns. It's up to you, either way is totally fine - just depends on what you're willing to do. I don't have a problem with throwing some money at dinner to have a good time. It shows you value their time and want to spend time with them.

No, that's just you paying money in hopes of getting laid. At least when you go to a real prostitute, they WILL fuck you, you're just hoping for some action. Paying for food doesn't show you value their time, you're making them your escort. And guys doing this, and girls allowing it, they're the ones keeping gender inequality a daily term to fight against.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

No, that's just you paying money in hopes of getting laid. At least when you go to a real prostitute, they WILL fuck you, you're just hoping for some action. Paying for food doesn't show you value their time, you're making them your escort. And guys doing this, and girls allowing it, they're the ones keeping gender inequality a daily term to fight against.

There's a big difference between meeting someone for a relationship and whoring.

 

[NeOak]

There's a big difference between meeting someone for a relationship and whoring.

You're right, one is cheaper.

 

[Minamu]

Insecurity and arrogance make for a dangerous combination.

Edit: Well, all that panic was over nothing as I received a failure delivery notification. This e-mail does not exist.

Do I try .com? The .ca was a failure, but what if .com is like some random creep weirdo dude anyway?

Care to share the email domain name? Finding the real top domain name shouldn't be that hard Also, you could just write something like "Hey, my dad gave me your email address and told me to contact you for some reason, isn't that super weird lol?" Because it is, and it's funny as well

That's the fun thing about these threads. You can put your opinion on something, and when people don't understand your past experiences or what you've been through it's easy to be misunderstood. However, I could have done a better job of explaining myself in the beginning, but I'll stand by when I said I pretty much have the same attitude that Vince had. He had a much more eloquent way of explaining it than I did.

Yes you're allowed to voice your opinion of course, I have no objection to that What truly ticked me off was actually more your advice on how to approach a set of girls in class. By giving empty compliments? Come on xD Talk about undermining the entire thread's ideals. I'm not saying it's wrong or that it doesn't work, the guy might succeed in that way, but it goes against pretty much everything the regulars in here try to teach guys about becoming men in a deeper sense of the word. Same thing with the guy who believes that paying for dates is part of "being a man". I've heard girls say the same thing! It doesn't get more twisted than that in my opinion. We gotta stop teaching these things and fill people's heads with crap.

There's a big difference between meeting someone for a relationship and whoring.

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood and have been all day. And getting rejected by five different girls for various reasons didn't really bring my mood back up :lol But I stand by my opinion. *Most guys* only talk to women in order to get something, usually sex. In many cases, that's the sole reason for going on a date as well. Or when guys buy girls drinks in order to like them. That's paying for their affection, substituting personality and true manliness with the size of their wallet instead. Granted, it's not the girl who gets the money when you pay for a date, but I think the principle is sound anyway. You are spending money to keep someone around you in hopes that they will like and reward you for it down the road. And as Idde said, keeping things the way they are just because they supposed to be a certain is stupid and backwards. With such reasonings from both genders, we will never have true gender equality.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood and have been all day. And getting rejected by five different girls for various reasons didn't really bring my mood back up :lol But I stand by my opinion. *Most guys* only talk to women in order to get something, usually sex. In many cases, that's the sole reason for going on a date as well. Or when guys buy girls drinks in order to like them. That's paying for their affection, substituting personality and true manliness with the size of their wallet instead. Granted, it's not the girl who gets the money when you pay for a date, but I think the principle is sound anyway. You are spending money to keep someone around you in hopes that they will like and reward you for it down the road. And as Idde said, keeping things the way they are just because they supposed to be a certain is stupid and backwards. With such reasonings from both genders, we will never have true gender equality.

It's alright if you've had a shit day but hey.

Maybe "most guys" do look at it like that - does that mean everyone on the receiving end is playing that game? Do YOU yourself feel like that? Is that why you're there? If you end up assuming everyone out there is out there for the same thing, you could easily be throwing away someone decent or interesting, someone you want to spend time with, because you're not taking people on a per-person basis. Mutual respect, and treating each person as a unique and different person is key because they ARE different and unique, every single one. And who knows, they may think the same about you - but will you be receptive if they are?

Just some food for thought. In my experience, no good has ever come of assuming someone is guilty (so to speak) of a preconceived notion about their gender. I've only struck out or acted like a dipshit whenever I decided to assume I knew what someone was all about.

 

[Minamu]

It's alright if you've had a shit day but hey.

Maybe "most guys" do look at it like that - does that mean everyone on the receiving end is playing that game? Do YOU yourself feel like that? Is that why you're there? If you end up assuming everyone out there is out there for the same thing, you could easily be throwing away someone decent or interesting, someone you want to spend time with, because you're not taking people on a per-person basis. Mutual respect, and treating each person as a unique and different person is key because they ARE different and unique, every single one. And who knows, they may think the same about you - but will you be receptive if they are?

Just some food for thought. In my experience, no good has ever come of assuming someone is guilty (so to speak) of a preconceived notion about their gender. I've only struck out or acted like a dipshit whenever I decided to assume I knew what someone was all about.

Sorry, I didn't really mean to paint you as a bad guy or anything And I've calmed down haha. I get touchy when it comes to equality and I do think that paying for dates and drinks "because that's what men do" is one of the reasons females are still oppressed. And when girls themselves expect it and even take advantage of that standard, that's even worse and rubs me the wrong way because they don't know what they're doing. This thread has always been about trying to change the world into a better place, at least that was my plan when I created it in 2012, by changing the mindset of one gaf member at a time. And buying drinks and giving empty compliments goes against the belief system that many regulars in here give advice based upon. As for your questions, no that's not why I'm here That is probably clear now. I don't mean to place you with "most guys", it's just that I speak in more general terms. I don't really care how you justify paying for dates, that's fine and up to you to do what you want, I just believe that the act itself is doing more damage than good overall. Am I expressing myself correctly here? I hope so. I give people the benefit of the doubt, I really do, sometimes wau too much when it should be clear that I don't need to, but I do.