IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
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davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
You're a troll, sir.
That or so conditioned regarding 'no no' words and phrases that some 1st year SWMS teach taught you as an undergrad that you refuse to allow context to exist in this dojo.
Let me make a l'll quiz for you so your can best understand what I said on twitter. Here's a question:
Imagine you are- God forbid- being raped. You have two choices:
a- remove a gun hidden in your waistband and shoot the freak raper dead.
b- engage the rapist in conversation about the latest batch of comics you purchased in hopes the rapist is a fellow comic fan and thus will humanize you and stop raping (yes, this is STUPID on purpose).
Now, which is the better way to react to the rape, a situation that EVERYONE agrees is horrific, not your fault, and should not be happening in the first place?
TLDR: I can say the woman could have handled the situation better while still saying NOTHING about this was her fault.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Making even more people stop paying attention to him and his creatively bankrupt videogames.
You can also do that outside of twitter and without leaning on hypotheticals. Sorry about the vidgame burn didn't think you'd be reading this.
Featheredkitten
Banned
I'm so glad women like me have someone like you to tell us how to react to rape. I'll make sure to keep my gun handy to shoot someone if they look at me funny.
Interfectum
Member
Your point is largely irrelevant as the entire reason this is an issue is she shouldn't have been put in that situation to begin with.
anexanhume
Member
Bad analogy. When someone is doing that to you, in all likelihood you could be in mortal danger and should react as such. There are instances where the woman had no such means to defend herself and did avoid further injury/assault by talking to the offender, but in either instance, the person you're talking about is a passive observer that was offended, not a direct, intended victim of sexual assault.
Prophet Steve
Member
I agree with you, that your comments regarding rape are not that bad and that it looks like it has been taken out of context.
But be aware that not everyone agrees that what you think is the best course of action is the actual course of action in the current situations, and besides that, for many people, how she responded should not be a factor at all.
Yes you can say that. But should you?
Hey, I'm just trying to figure out what he is trying to convey. He's just really sucking at it. I don't think his intentions are to victim blame though, and I think his initial stance of fighting back should be encouraged. No one should point a finger at the victim and say "you didn't do it right dipshit, you should've fought back" or anything like that, because damn, being a victim sucks and hindsight is 20/20. But I do think it's something that should be talked about and encouraged.
Noooo idea where Jaffe is going outside of that basic premise though. As I've said, he really should stop, or at least not be so ridiculously defensive. As for the journalist thing, I'm absolutely with you - that man's downward spiral descent is pretty awful.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Okay, if we're in hypothetical land, what if you did not have a gun and what if you were afraid that raising your arms would get you killed.
Also, what if telling rape victims that they should have owned a gun and shot their rapist in a hypothetical scenario and then constantly insisting that this doesn't constitute blame on the victim's part is really gross. (that's not a hypothetical, by the way)
Also, what if telling rape victims that they should have owned a gun and shot their rapist in a hypothetical scenario and then constantly insisting that this doesn't constitute blame on the victim's part is really gross. (that's not a hypothetical, by the way)
I'm glad you've moved to a longer form way to have conversations based on this because I don't really want to just shit on you for what you said on Twitter. It's hard to formulate proper thoughts on such a subject 140 characters at a time.
You're benefiting from the fact of not actually being raped right this second.
Or being sexually harassed.
With these benefits, it's very easy to point out what should and shouldn't be done. Say, for instance, you pepper spray the dude, and then he kills you. Oops. Sure made that situation better.
Or say, for instance, you tell the sexual harasser to stop as soon as you feel uncomfortable. He goes on to tell everyone that you're a frigid bitch who can't take a joke. It is, as I said, an impossibly narrow standard you're holding that shouldn't even be discussed. She choose to deal with the situation in a jokingly polite and obviously rejectionary way. Maybe because she's dealt with the situation before and was burned by direct confrontation? Who knows.
It's not for you to judge.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Just because something is true doesn't mean you need to say it. Like, when you're checking out your groceries you don't need to tell the clerk they're fat or ugly or that working at a grocery store is a shitty job or that you make more money in a day than they do in a month.
Part of being a human being is basic empathy and thinking about how what you say impacts other people rather than just going ahead and saying it.
Why on earth would someone go to bat for their right to say hurtful truths to rape victims or victims of harassment? Talk about misplaced priorities. I have no doubt in some fantasy world that's we were all super-human, rape victims might be able to take physical recourse to prevent their rape, but when a rape victim is telling you that they felt powerless you don't need to rub it in.
Part of being a human being is basic empathy and thinking about how what you say impacts other people rather than just going ahead and saying it.
Why on earth would someone go to bat for their right to say hurtful truths to rape victims or victims of harassment? Talk about misplaced priorities. I have no doubt in some fantasy world that's we were all super-human, rape victims might be able to take physical recourse to prevent their rape, but when a rape victim is telling you that they felt powerless you don't need to rub it in.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
You continue to miss the point.
I'm not telling YOU how to respond to ANYTHING.
I'm saying that I can say I disagree with how she responded to the situation w/out saying she was in ANY WAY responsible or at fault for the terrible situation.
Seems the divide between us is that once she is placed in a category of 'victim' the ONLY response you will allow is to shower her will well wishes and hugs and 'Oh you poor thing's. And she deservers ALL of those wonderful, supportive reactions to her terrible situation and more! I agree with that- but I also think me having an opinion on how she handled it doesn't take away from my desire for her to feel better and to never have had to deal with this at all.
Agree to disagree, agree to hate each other- fine by me.
Gotta go to work- later Gaf!
David
Oog. I mean, when I'm at a coffee shop, I'll usually say that with a smile to anyone I'm sitting next to (man, woman, kid, dog [ok, especially the dog]), and make small talk, but that's more along the lines of "I am a chatterbox and I'm from the middle of nowhere Midwest". If they don't engage in conversation, I just move on with my life though. But, from where I grew up, it is considered extremely rude to not be friendly to everyone around you.
Question: So you're sitting at a fairly crowded coffee shop, maybe surfing the web on your phone. Seat across from you is not taken. Random guy (say, someone in a suit and shirt, business casual) gets a coffee and sits down next to you. Grabs his phone, looks through it. Sipping through his coffee. After a couple of minutes of silence, looks up, says "Hey, how are you doing today?"
What's your reaction? (I'm genuinely curious - I'm a male minority middle of nowhere midwesterner transplant to the PNW, so I'm super curious as to how other people react to that)
As for Jaffe, understanding that I always try to see the good in people (and generally assume that while people can be douchebags, they are mostly good at heart IMO - they are just given poor incentives often times):
Jaffe's totally a parent with non toddler kids I'm guessing - what he's saying (terribly, mind you) is what a parent with school age or above kids would say. It's the difference between how things should work (it shouldn't matter what you're wearing or what you do, bad shit is bad) versus how things do work (that these things currently do impact how shit happens, and your responsibility as a parent is to protect your kids from how things do work regardless of how things should work).
I disagree with him in the vein of "be the change you want to see", but I'm not a parent, and seeing as parents tend to take anything that happens to their kids as a failure on their part, regardless of what they could have done (my mom & dad routinely blames me getting cancer on themselves, even though it probably wasn't genetic, seeing as no one in my immediate or extended family has ever had leukemia), I can see where Jaffe is coming from. It's not an uncommon perspective from folks who are a bit older / have 8+ year old kids - they have a much more "this is how shit actually works" view of the world rather than a more principled "this is how shit should work".
Thoughts? Or am I just giving Jaffe waaay too much benefit of the doubt?
More like David Gaffe, amirite?
Interfectum
Member
Again Stump, you put into words exactly what I want to say but fail to do so. Suffice to say I agree with this 100%.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Actually, statistically speaking the best way to survive rape is to let it happen rather than risking any escalation which might cause your attacker to respond with further violence.
These two things are not equivalent, and I explained why on the last page. Social situations such as bars or public Facebook posts are places where there is no inherent power imbalance which allows a certain democratisation of behaviour which isn't possible in professional circumstances, where the negotiation of power is less of a consistent back and forth exercise and more established by where the money lies.
A developer can't always afford to be blunt with a member of the press, which is something of a sad indictment on the industry but that's how it is right now.
These two things are not equivalent, and I explained why on the last page. Social situations such as bars or public Facebook posts are places where there is no inherent power imbalance which allows a certain democratisation of behaviour which isn't possible in professional circumstances, where the negotiation of power is less of a consistent back and forth exercise and more established by where the money lies.
A developer can't always afford to be blunt with a member of the press, which is something of a sad indictment on the industry but that's how it is right now.
NTIETS13A_Superiority
Banned
Holey shit Jaffe. You do not talk shit about rape and get away with it. Jaffe must be high or something.
Rape is rape, Jaffe. Pepperspray or no pepperspray.
EmCeeGramr
Member
If you're constantly telling someone that they should have responsibly handled a situation better, or that a situation could have been averted if they had made a "better" choice, but are still insisting that you're not claiming that the victim had any responsibility or blame, then you need to sit down and think for a long time about what you think you're saying and what you're actually saying.
Encouraged by a group of people who will likely never have to be in the situation? That's the problem with Jaffe, in a nutshell. He's talking out his ass. He's doing the post-game internet tough guy routine of saying what he'd do in such a situation, and being patronizing about how he's just trying to give advice to rape victims.
But he has no idea what he'd do in an attempted rape situation. This is the classic fourteen-year-old-boy mentality of thinking you're somehow better and tougher than other people who've been through some shit when you haven't.
"Oh, if someone tried to rape me, I'd gouge their eyes out, hit them with a burst of pepper spray, and then use my martial arts skills to cripple them. Because I'm not a pussy, dude."
It's an incredibly offensive tack to take regarding sexual assault, particularly from someone of a privileged class who's likely never going to have to deal with the situation.
Featheredkitten
Banned
I'm talking about say, someone in the service industry i interact with everyday, or nearly everyday. I've had a few days of "Hey how are? Sure is [weather] today!" and other various small talk of not rude-ness taken to mean "I'm slobbering for it, please oh please give me your number." Is no fun.
and to answer your question, I'd probably say "I'm doing good, sure is [weather] today!" and go back to what i was doing.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I guess Jaffe isn't concerned with how the public views him or his games anymore. Not that anyone would remember such titles as Calling All Cars, but you'd think a little more decorum would be exhibited on his part.
Guess Sony never had any classes on how to handle yourselves in a connected, social environment.
Guess Sony never had any classes on how to handle yourselves in a connected, social environment.
anexanhume
Member
Slippery slope. It becomes a lot more complicated when you consider her addressing them individually. Is she morally required to feel comfortable addressing them directly? Are the men victims of her having an overly pessimistic/fear based attitude of interacting with men?
I think the only thing that's clear is that both sides' employers overreacted in firing them. Had no one been fired, I don't think anyone would have raised a fuss about her speaking out about it, and she didn't actively call for them to be fired. She simply thought they should be removed for violating the code of conduct of the conference. The employers' desire to not have bad PR caused them to be overzealous and value the potential of a better image over the employment of real, actual people who probably felt remorse about the way they acted in the situation once they saw the outcome.
You shouldn't be telling women how to react to being raped or possibility being raped.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Some of the apologists here really don't know what harassment is. Not only disappointing, but scary.
Unwanted sexual advances from someone you have a position of power over or a professional relationship with is enough. Telling the person to stop is not necessary. Feeling threatened is not necessary. They have the power and the ability to retaliate, hence why the burden is on the person to not initiate the harassment.
Of course genders don't matter. If you are a male and your female boss makes uninvited sexual advances at you what would you do? Tell her to back off? Nah, you would probably try to brush it/laugh it off like the person on the OP did. What do you do if were hoping for a promotion or some career advancement? What would you do if you are married or in a relationship? How would you feel if your boss were a man? Genders don't matter. Sexual harassment is wrong. Dealing with it is extremely difficult, which is why it needs to be prevented.
Just like boss-employee, sexual harassment can happen in all kinds of professional relationships. Developer-journalist, coworker-coworker, teacher-student, etc. For those of you who don't get the backlash or can't get why sexual harassment is wrong or what it is, try to put yourself on the other side, and not just for the exchange, but in the bigger context of trying to a professional and perhaps advance your career.
Unwanted sexual advances from someone you have a position of power over or a professional relationship with is enough. Telling the person to stop is not necessary. Feeling threatened is not necessary. They have the power and the ability to retaliate, hence why the burden is on the person to not initiate the harassment.
Of course genders don't matter. If you are a male and your female boss makes uninvited sexual advances at you what would you do? Tell her to back off? Nah, you would probably try to brush it/laugh it off like the person on the OP did. What do you do if were hoping for a promotion or some career advancement? What would you do if you are married or in a relationship? How would you feel if your boss were a man? Genders don't matter. Sexual harassment is wrong. Dealing with it is extremely difficult, which is why it needs to be prevented.
Just like boss-employee, sexual harassment can happen in all kinds of professional relationships. Developer-journalist, coworker-coworker, teacher-student, etc. For those of you who don't get the backlash or can't get why sexual harassment is wrong or what it is, try to put yourself on the other side, and not just for the exchange, but in the bigger context of trying to a professional and perhaps advance your career.
I think everyone needs to take a step back though. A lot of people are obviously passionate about the topic and with good reason, but some of it is being taken out of context. Jaffe did plenty of grave digging, but it's not too hard to see his point though. Having said that, Jaffe, you need to take some time and really think about what you're saying. It's hard to convey one's thoughts sometimes, but c'mon man lol.
Jaffe didn't tell the victim directly that she should've handled the situation better** - he is stating that, in his view, it could've been handled better by simply asking to stop. It's not like she had to get on her knees and beg for it - just say it once. It's not her responsibility, but it's definitely an option, and to some people, it's the best option. Of course, if the journalist didn't listen, then by all means go to town with making that shit public.
Now, in this particular case, as we are finding that the journalist has a habit of pulling this kind of shit, I think he deserves what's coming to him.
**see: hindsight comment I made earlier.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
"Handle the situation better" needs to become the new " female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down"
Steve Youngblood
Member
Well, I can kind of see what you're ultimately getting at, but I think it requires a lot more care than what you're putting into it. I understand that some people don't want to just accept that rape sometimes happens, and there's nothing one can do to stop it. However, as someone who has never been sexually assaulted -- and also being a male that is statistically less likely to ever be assaulted -- I largely accept that any thoughts or advice I might have on how to mitigate the chances of being sexually assaulted are probably best kept to myself. Further, I disagree with your assessment that it might be helpful to offer advice to a victim after the fact, which is what you seem to be asserting if I'm reading your post correctly.
My view is that -- first of all -- it doesn't behoove us at all to try and convince women that they might be better served being prepared to prevent their own rapes. I don't see myself as being a responsible citizen by encouraging women to buy pepper spray, or to buy a gun, or to take self defense lessons. However, I also don't discount that maybe one or more of these actions might allow a woman to survive an attack. However, that would be entirely her call to make. Personally, I'm not really convinced that any such action would be effective as they could just as easily backfire and lead to an attacker being more irate. However, I do understand that some women don't just want to accept that there's nothing they can do to help their chances of not being attacked.
In that regard, I do understand that there's maybe a discussion worth having in regards to people who want to be prepared, but that conversation is only worth having for people that want to go out of their way to take those measures. They certainly don't have any responsibility to do so, and the time for that conversation certainly isn't after a woman has been assaulted.
It's a shame but at least he went here to further explain his take on the situation.
...Hopefully he and a few others in the thread can learn something from this as time goes on.
Ouch. Yeah, I can see where the polite-ness not being construed as flirting ends up being an issue.
I guess I'm sufficiently old-school enough in that I don't assume someone is interested in anything more than friendship unless they explicitly say they are interested in more. But...don't most people do that? I mean, it feels like that makes the most sense in ways to approach random people?
Why would you even feel like you need to say that other than to try and prove to yourself you knew better? No matter how much you try to convince yourself that you simply know do you are in no position at all to make that kind of comment because those sorts of hypotheticals rarely if ever align with reality. What about get some fucking empathy first, then start throwing out stupid advice?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Oh look, the guy who said the Vita was like a "warm, fresh pussy" has showed up. What nuggets of glorious genius might we be privy to?
YoYo Switch
Banned
Jaffe chiiiiiiiiillll
....I can dig that.
anexanhume
Member
I agree with all your points, but I think allowing the situation to be compared to a rape is fallacious in itself. No one questions whether the woman in a victim in a rape. In the situation with the comments, some people questioned whether or not the woman was actually a victim and whether her being offended was justified. That's a way different scenario.
Oh, errr, yeah. Hmmm.
Featheredkitten
Banned
What some people seem to misunderstand about rape (not saying that you are) is that it's not about sex, it's about control and power and rage. If someone with those feelings is attacking someone else, how likely do you think the victim is to survive when they fight back? Remembering that it's about control, power, and anger. Not bloody likely is the answer. Making your attacker more angry is not how you survive it.
These are the things most women know, this is why it's hard to reject unwanted advances, this is why we don't appreciate being told "Just fight back". Men and women are coming from different perspectives for these kind of encounters. Rejecting a woman is easy for men (Shut up), rejecting a man, especially one who might be sexist and certainly has power over you is a difficult proposition for a woman. It sucks, but that's what it is.
edit:
I would say from personal experience 8 or 9 out of 10 see politeness as politeness it's the last one or two that cause the problem. And trust me, being put in a situation where someone is quite obviously imagining you naked and thinking about...doing nasty things to you is one in which you don't want to be ever again. Makes you rethink being thought of as a frigid bitch.
Well,I think that having a discussion about it is healthy without the need to patronizing people. There's nothing wrong with talking about, and encouraging people to say "no". I also don't think it's wrong for people who have never been in that situation to talk about it - there's a lot more harm in ignoring the topic and leaving it exclusively to people who have had to go through the terrible experience. Again, I'm just talking about having a discussion about it - as long as it's just that, and as long as something of value is learned in the process.
I had the same reaction. Telling people how they should respond to a rape seems like a cataclysmic fuck up of an endeavor..
Interfectum
Member
It's not always that easy. Situations like this require empathy and not just "well if I was in this situation I would have..." That is such a pointless argument.
Maybe she didn't say 'stop' because that could have completely changed the tone of the conversation thus possibly making him say something super defense or even more offensive. She obviously didn't want to get into a confrontation with the man so she let it slide by. Also remember that the conversation was in two parts. 10pm~11pm and then she was treated to that gem of a quote on Sunday morning (which is, I'm guessing, what prompted her to escalate the situation beyond being a private conversation).
Featheredkitten
Banned
I'm on gaf, i'm cool with trash talking.
Corronchilejano
Member
Well he wasn't raping her or anything, and he wasn't blackmailing her either. Then again, he shouldn't have expected privacy from someone he barely knew, and as such he should've treated her with more respect. Then again, if he did have a history of being a creep, this is more than deserved, and maybe now he'll be more respectul with women.
Shame can be a great teacher.
Murder. She Wrote
Member
There's a lot of people doing a better job of dissecting your opinion but I would like to say something. Have you ever been literally frozen in fear? It's a terrifying experience. Now imagine a rape victim who was so scared and confused that she just didn't react. And now you come along all big and macho and say "I'm not gonna tell you how you should've reacted, but you should've fought back!"
Do you know how absolutely disgusting that would be? How that would make her feel?
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