Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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User 73706
Banned
Jorok Goldblade
Member
The general mood in post-Brawl Smash discussions seemed to flow toward "Ridley can't work if he's not ginormous." Personally, I trust Sakurai to make it work, but this attitude has poisoned the confidence of Ridley supporters.
You are of genius.
User 73706
Banned
Re: Donkey Kong newcomers:
RealDeadOne
Member
So you're saying we should have Candy Kong and a minecart as the newcomers?
Ride on a bike, throw news papers.
There's also quite a lot of stuff to draw from out of the games, like the dogs or whatever.
I mean, he would be a shitty character (and also is owned by Atari, i.e. Infogrames), but there's been people who do less getting a moveset.
Doesn't honestly sound interesting...
Minecart can be a rep for that "cancelled" Sadness game!
soviet prince
Member
I would love to have impa, one of my favorite characters from skyward sword
Gotta realize that this is a Japanese game made with Japanese tastes. 9 times out of 10, they'll choose Skyward Sword Impa over any other iteration because of the character design. If there was a moe or a Toon version, I'm pretty sure that would be first dibs.
That said, sometimes I wish Toon Link and Toon Zelda became the canon counterparts and are the ones represented more often. I really love love love the Toon designs a lot more than that of OoT, TP, and even Skyward Sword's impressionist style.
I really hope this new Zelda design pays homage to different art movements because Zelda should have a timeless art style no matter what. Zelda is that kind of series that deserves it and I think they've achieved that timelessness so far with Toon and SS character designs.
That said, sometimes I wish Toon Link and Toon Zelda became the canon counterparts and are the ones represented more often. I really love love love the Toon designs a lot more than that of OoT, TP, and even Skyward Sword's impressionist style.
I really hope this new Zelda design pays homage to different art movements because Zelda should have a timeless art style no matter what. Zelda is that kind of series that deserves it and I think they've achieved that timelessness so far with Toon and SS character designs.
soviet prince
Member
it prob would go with jpn taste which is why I worry on ridley since I heard they hate him in japan
User 73706
Banned
Here's 3DS Impa for comparison.
SS design is great, but I agree OoT Impa stands out more against the other ladies of Smash. Also, nostalgia.
Impa's body type from OoT and an undersuit in that style with the SS outfit design as outerwear would be a perfect mix imo. It could also always work as an alternate costume.
Red Arremer
Member
lol no they don't.
No idea where you got that from. Metroid just isn't as big in Japan as it is in the West, that's all.
soviet prince
Member
it just seems to be what ppl been saying but I hope your right
Got bored, did another one of these things:
Thoughts:
SS Impa: Adding her to the roster adds the final member of the ever prominent Zelda quartet to the cast, an interesting and very visually distinct character and a chance to go even further with the "ninja" archetype. It also has the nice bonus of adding further female representation to the cast. Thanks to taking inspiration primarily from her SS incarnation, she now has access to even more potent tools between her goddess granted/magical moves and a more traditional acrobatic and Sheik like move set. At the same time I don't want to see Sheik's play style gone since it is very iconic within the Smash franchise, I'd love it if Impa strayed more towards the former than the latter.
Dixie: DK series certainly deserves another rep between being one of the big old guys and having a bit of a resurgence in recent times thanks to the "Returns" series. Dixie is great for this for both being a call back (with Diddy) to most gamers' fondest memories of the DKC franchise (DKC2) as well as the upcoming Tropical Freeze title. Her potential in playstyle is also pretty robust between hair flails and 'copters as well as nimble monkey shenanigans.
Mewtwo: Totally deserves to come back. He had a very unique play style and Project M further reaffirms that all he ever really needed to be more satisfying to play were very minor tweaks and a neat gimmick. His role in Pokemon can never be understated and thanks to Pokemon X/Y's defining mechanic, he now has 2 big reasons to re-join the Smashers at current.
Ridley: Yet another case of bringing in a visually and thematically distinctive figure from a game that already has its strongest/primary representatives present. As Metroid is predominantly a franchise based around the concept of isolation and exploration, the case for Ridley is to get a second rep with both a unique relationship to the most important character in Samus as well as to make sure that said representative is full of unique potential as a fighter against her. As Ridley is both the most prominent recurring antagonistic figure (also dubbed "Samus' trauma") while also being a massive reptilian flyer whose traditional means of attack are various sweeps, rushing dives, flame breathing and the occasional grabs utilizing its "larger than thou" status, the obvious potential is there. It's all on the dev team to creatively use it.
Anna: This one is my first real stretch but as my third most wanted character, I'm hoping for magic to happen. Fire Emblem is one of those franchises where you could make a shortlist of 10 - 20 different characters you'd like to see doing cool shit in an environment like the platform fighter that Smash is and you'd still run into a sect of people with 7 or more picks that you've never considered (or heard of) before and there is a case to be made for the majority of them. With Anna however, there's a few things that I'd love to see emphasized. For one, as per Awakening, she is one of the few Trickster class promotees and as such can utilize a much more mixed offensive arsenal than most other Fire Emblem characters. This includes grandoise things like using more magic based moves in tandem with a standard sword, playing up her title's forte and using a lot of "heat of the moment" deceptions to gain the upper hand (her reversed grip on swords), or even simple things like forcibly "stealing" a character's held items, moves, or their properties all in the name of a day's profits.
Anna enjoys a modest popularity but also has enough seniority and a persistent role in the Fire Emblem franchise as its records keeper (and the face of its general tips/FAQ screens) ensuring that she wouldn't just be a one time fling in the roster either.
Palutena: A very popular pick and for all the right reasons. Great personality? Check. Moveset potential (and then some)? Check. Adds something meaningful as a main/focus figure within her own franchise? Check. Codec/banter potential? Check. She's currently the #2 of my three most wanted.
Shulk: I can only really say that I support this because of Xenoblade's lauded status as the biggest surprise in RPGs of last generation and because there has to be a very unique move set that can be utilized given the mechanics behind the Monado in game. I didn't play the game myself very far however. (I'm working on it I promise!)
Little Mac: A Nintendo classic that came back with even more personality than he had before thanks to Next Level's reboot. Little Mac, while seemingly offering nothing different beyond a move set of punches actually has a shot at being a very refreshing if basic character through different styles of boxing and countering.
Takamaru: The poster boy of the fighting style I've want to see represented in a Smash roster since forever and my current #1 want. Lyn teased the potential an eastern "iai-jutsu" or draw-and-sheathe styled sword fighter could have as a simple assist trophy
and I'm aching to see this taken to its logical conclusions. Beyond that, Takamaru brings with him other means of offense from over the top lightning spells to the more trite shuriken and bombs. With all the recent exposure his franchise has been receiving lately, its certainly become tantalizing to imagine that it's all leading to something and what better stage than Smash to re-debut upon?
Pac-Man: I believe in the Leaky 3 being a reality. Pac-man is also the most "what in the hell" idea ever that I'm forced to believe that if it is in fact a reality, it has to be ridiculously good in one way or another. Furthermore, video game enthusiasts of all levels would no doubt find the notion of Mario vs Sonic vs Megaman vs Pac-Man vs Snake to be a hilarious and truly unreal tribute to their hobby.
Mii: Originally one of the more controversial additions, now I anxiously await the (rumored) reveal just to have an idea of what degree of customization would be possible with the faces of the recent Nintendo.
Thoughts:
SS Impa: Adding her to the roster adds the final member of the ever prominent Zelda quartet to the cast, an interesting and very visually distinct character and a chance to go even further with the "ninja" archetype. It also has the nice bonus of adding further female representation to the cast. Thanks to taking inspiration primarily from her SS incarnation, she now has access to even more potent tools between her goddess granted/magical moves and a more traditional acrobatic and Sheik like move set. At the same time I don't want to see Sheik's play style gone since it is very iconic within the Smash franchise, I'd love it if Impa strayed more towards the former than the latter.
Dixie: DK series certainly deserves another rep between being one of the big old guys and having a bit of a resurgence in recent times thanks to the "Returns" series. Dixie is great for this for both being a call back (with Diddy) to most gamers' fondest memories of the DKC franchise (DKC2) as well as the upcoming Tropical Freeze title. Her potential in playstyle is also pretty robust between hair flails and 'copters as well as nimble monkey shenanigans.
Mewtwo: Totally deserves to come back. He had a very unique play style and Project M further reaffirms that all he ever really needed to be more satisfying to play were very minor tweaks and a neat gimmick. His role in Pokemon can never be understated and thanks to Pokemon X/Y's defining mechanic, he now has 2 big reasons to re-join the Smashers at current.
Ridley: Yet another case of bringing in a visually and thematically distinctive figure from a game that already has its strongest/primary representatives present. As Metroid is predominantly a franchise based around the concept of isolation and exploration, the case for Ridley is to get a second rep with both a unique relationship to the most important character in Samus as well as to make sure that said representative is full of unique potential as a fighter against her. As Ridley is both the most prominent recurring antagonistic figure (also dubbed "Samus' trauma") while also being a massive reptilian flyer whose traditional means of attack are various sweeps, rushing dives, flame breathing and the occasional grabs utilizing its "larger than thou" status, the obvious potential is there. It's all on the dev team to creatively use it.
Anna: This one is my first real stretch but as my third most wanted character, I'm hoping for magic to happen. Fire Emblem is one of those franchises where you could make a shortlist of 10 - 20 different characters you'd like to see doing cool shit in an environment like the platform fighter that Smash is and you'd still run into a sect of people with 7 or more picks that you've never considered (or heard of) before and there is a case to be made for the majority of them. With Anna however, there's a few things that I'd love to see emphasized. For one, as per Awakening, she is one of the few Trickster class promotees and as such can utilize a much more mixed offensive arsenal than most other Fire Emblem characters. This includes grandoise things like using more magic based moves in tandem with a standard sword, playing up her title's forte and using a lot of "heat of the moment" deceptions to gain the upper hand (her reversed grip on swords), or even simple things like forcibly "stealing" a character's held items, moves, or their properties all in the name of a day's profits.
Anna enjoys a modest popularity but also has enough seniority and a persistent role in the Fire Emblem franchise as its records keeper (and the face of its general tips/FAQ screens) ensuring that she wouldn't just be a one time fling in the roster either.
My FE shortlist includes Anna, Robin, Tharja, Chrom + Lucina tag, Hector, and if in full dream mode, Lyn. I also have a soft spot for Roy because of his previous Smash appearance.
Palutena: A very popular pick and for all the right reasons. Great personality? Check. Moveset potential (and then some)? Check. Adds something meaningful as a main/focus figure within her own franchise? Check. Codec/banter potential? Check. She's currently the #2 of my three most wanted.
Shulk: I can only really say that I support this because of Xenoblade's lauded status as the biggest surprise in RPGs of last generation and because there has to be a very unique move set that can be utilized given the mechanics behind the Monado in game. I didn't play the game myself very far however. (I'm working on it I promise!)
Little Mac: A Nintendo classic that came back with even more personality than he had before thanks to Next Level's reboot. Little Mac, while seemingly offering nothing different beyond a move set of punches actually has a shot at being a very refreshing if basic character through different styles of boxing and countering.
Takamaru: The poster boy of the fighting style I've want to see represented in a Smash roster since forever and my current #1 want. Lyn teased the potential an eastern "iai-jutsu" or draw-and-sheathe styled sword fighter could have as a simple assist trophy
never forget Zeed/#TeamLyn forever ;___;7
Pac-Man: I believe in the Leaky 3 being a reality. Pac-man is also the most "what in the hell" idea ever that I'm forced to believe that if it is in fact a reality, it has to be ridiculously good in one way or another. Furthermore, video game enthusiasts of all levels would no doubt find the notion of Mario vs Sonic vs Megaman vs Pac-Man vs Snake to be a hilarious and truly unreal tribute to their hobby.
Mii: Originally one of the more controversial additions, now I anxiously await the (rumored) reveal just to have an idea of what degree of customization would be possible with the faces of the recent Nintendo.
soviet prince
Member
btw I am #teamreal
Yep, a Rhythm Paradise rep could as well be one of the secret characters that won't be revealed before release. I think they could work in a bit of Game & Watch-y way.
Still going strong with no evidence against it.
Correction, there is evidence, it's just a matter of wether you choose to go with it or not.
Yeah, but no one has managed to disprove my point. All screenshots of that stage so far have shown the cloud I brought up in the background.
I mean no one has been able to prove out right that all reasons it could be fake are wrong.
It works both ways.
What about the dude who created the GIF overlay which disproved you? It had the cloud in the background.
OK, these are the arguments on either side:
Mario:
The only known source for Mario from the side at that distance is the Director's Direct video from E3. People have gone through it frame by frame to find a similar stance but it doesn't exist. Though just pausing it will reveal that the angle is not exactly the same.
However what is interesting is the fact that no pose seems to line up properly. Now of course we are assuming it is his idle stance, but if that is the case why is there no instance where his hands are in the same position as the leaked screenshot even taking the camera angle into account?
Also some have questioned the size of his hands pointing out that they should be bigger, but that could simply be a trick of the eye. Also his hat is apparently too smooth but again this could just be because it's a photo. It's amazing how easy it is to use an off screen photo is to hide flaws and add credibility.
Palutena
No known source of this model exists. It does not match either the Brawl model or the Uprising model. I should just note that the Starman thing has been disproven.
Regarding models
Usually lazy leaked images often just use a preexisting screencap and cut the images out. This is why they can be disproven quickly i.e. that Waluigi image from a few days ago. However making ones own models is not an impossibility and we have seen many instances where people will do just that. When you have someone taking the time to make a fake trailer for Majora's Mask HD is it really so hard to imagine someone putting just two models together for a static image?
Now regarding the Palutena model. We have two sources for her design but only one allows someone to extract the model and put it on their computer. I am of course referring to Brawl. Now what is interesting is that people have pointed out how close certain aspects of her model are to her Brawl design despite Sakurai taking the time to update Pit's look to reflect his Uprising design. Now I agree that clearly the model is not a direct rip of the Brawl model but we also know how easy it is to edit Brawl models. It could very well be the case that someone tried to update the model to look more like Uprising's but didn't quite do a good job of it. It would also explain why her stance is so lifeless, the original model was just a trophy so they would have had to add all the pivot points themselves so only a few basic ones like her right arm at the shoulder was added.
This could also be true for Mario. They may have imported the Brawl Mario model and edited the textures. This would explain things like the smaller gloves and smoother hat.
The background
I've already explained the cloud issue, but a few points of note. No, that gif did not disprove my point as said by the very person who posted said gif. His point was that it was non-conclusive which I agree with as my original post outlined the flaws and assumptions in my theory. But like I said, clouds are one thing no one questioned because why would you and thus it is very easily an area the leaker would have gotten a bit lazy. Using a feathered eraser to cut them out thus cutting away at the shape while not realising that shape is a constant throughout all the images and using a brush to fill in the gaps making his cloud far more shadowy than the real thing. Seriously, how many of you noticed before I pointed it out that the clouds are a fixed shape in all the screenshots?
I've likely forgotten a few things, but I think this shows that neither side have yet to make conclusive a argument and thus saying these is no evidence for it being fake is rather absurd as there is just as much evidence saying it is real.
Mario:
The only known source for Mario from the side at that distance is the Director's Direct video from E3. People have gone through it frame by frame to find a similar stance but it doesn't exist. Though just pausing it will reveal that the angle is not exactly the same.
However what is interesting is the fact that no pose seems to line up properly. Now of course we are assuming it is his idle stance, but if that is the case why is there no instance where his hands are in the same position as the leaked screenshot even taking the camera angle into account?
Also some have questioned the size of his hands pointing out that they should be bigger, but that could simply be a trick of the eye. Also his hat is apparently too smooth but again this could just be because it's a photo. It's amazing how easy it is to use an off screen photo is to hide flaws and add credibility.
Palutena
No known source of this model exists. It does not match either the Brawl model or the Uprising model. I should just note that the Starman thing has been disproven.
Regarding models
Usually lazy leaked images often just use a preexisting screencap and cut the images out. This is why they can be disproven quickly i.e. that Waluigi image from a few days ago. However making ones own models is not an impossibility and we have seen many instances where people will do just that. When you have someone taking the time to make a fake trailer for Majora's Mask HD is it really so hard to imagine someone putting just two models together for a static image?
Now regarding the Palutena model. We have two sources for her design but only one allows someone to extract the model and put it on their computer. I am of course referring to Brawl. Now what is interesting is that people have pointed out how close certain aspects of her model are to her Brawl design despite Sakurai taking the time to update Pit's look to reflect his Uprising design. Now I agree that clearly the model is not a direct rip of the Brawl model but we also know how easy it is to edit Brawl models. It could very well be the case that someone tried to update the model to look more like Uprising's but didn't quite do a good job of it. It would also explain why her stance is so lifeless, the original model was just a trophy so they would have had to add all the pivot points themselves so only a few basic ones like her right arm at the shoulder was added.
This could also be true for Mario. They may have imported the Brawl Mario model and edited the textures. This would explain things like the smaller gloves and smoother hat.
The background
I've already explained the cloud issue, but a few points of note. No, that gif did not disprove my point as said by the very person who posted said gif. His point was that it was non-conclusive which I agree with as my original post outlined the flaws and assumptions in my theory. But like I said, clouds are one thing no one questioned because why would you and thus it is very easily an area the leaker would have gotten a bit lazy. Using a feathered eraser to cut them out thus cutting away at the shape while not realising that shape is a constant throughout all the images and using a brush to fill in the gaps making his cloud far more shadowy than the real thing. Seriously, how many of you noticed before I pointed it out that the clouds are a fixed shape in all the screenshots?
I've likely forgotten a few things, but I think this shows that neither side have yet to make conclusive a argument and thus saying these is no evidence for it being fake is rather absurd as there is just as much evidence saying it is real.
Dr. Buni
Member
The Palutena leak is very very very likely real.
I somehow doubt Zelda will get a SS reskin with the Shiek transformation and everything. Twilight princess wasn't really a stretch, not to mention Brawl Zelda is once again a new model anyways.
It would be neat to get SS Sword as a lighter Zelda or something and replace the Shiek transformation with something else.
It would be neat to get SS Sword as a lighter Zelda or something and replace the Shiek transformation with something else.
If Pit's new Upperdash Arm attack is his side special (which most likely seems the case). Then I wonder if the move changes at all if used in the air? Captain Falcon has a vaguely similar attack in his Raptor Boost that sends foes in the air, but if used as an aerial attack it meteor smashes the target pretty powerfully.
It'll be interesting to find out, as I'm really excited to try out new Pit.
Great write-up. : )
It'll be interesting to find out, as I'm really excited to try out new Pit.
Great write-up. : )
rasberryjam
Member
Last night I had a dream that Turok made it into Smash Bros.
Never have I been so indifferent about a dream.
Never have I been so indifferent about a dream.
MrSaturn99
Member
Impa? No thanks.
I can't think of a Zelda newcomer I would want, really.
I can't think of a Zelda newcomer I would want, really.
liveman789
Neo Member
People still use the Ghirahim being a "one shot" as an excuse for him not being in the game? That argument has no ground. Sakurai has never said why he never included other one-shots like Zant and Skull Kid. It could have been because he simply didn't like them. There's a chance he likes Ghirahim and sees more potential in him as a playable character. Not to mention he's was fabulously more popular than any other non-Ganon villain.
Hell, look at Rosalina. There have been a good amount of important Mario characters who weren't playable before she existed (Bowser Jr. and Toad), yet she got in before them despite her young age and smaller amount of appearances.
Hell, look at Rosalina. There have been a good amount of important Mario characters who weren't playable before she existed (Bowser Jr. and Toad), yet she got in before them despite her young age and smaller amount of appearances.
The Bankslammer
Member
I would absolutely insta-main a Rhythm Heaven character.
Hoping it at least gets SOME representation this time around. Even just having music on the WarioWare stage would make me happy.
Hoping it at least gets SOME representation this time around. Even just having music on the WarioWare stage would make me happy.
rasberryjam
Member
Everyone will be amazed when Turok makes the final cut.
In celebration of Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate being announced for Western release, today we would like to reveal Monster Hunter as a new playable character in the latest Super Smash Brothers. for Nintendo 3DS and Nintendo Wii U. Furthermore, we would also like to show off a special trailer for this character.
Believe
Believe
Capcom couldn't even get a Monster Hunter character in their own fighting game.
Werewolf Jones
Member
Megaman is already Capcom's rep though, so... RIP your dreams.
A Monster Hunter character in Smash could actually be pretty cool. He could use a Great Sword* and have his Final Smash be a Felyne throwing an ill-timed bomb that sends you flying and kills everyone else. His victory music would be the cooking theme, of course. SO TASTY!
*and he would use a great sword because all other weapons are for weakling peasants
*and he would use a great sword because all other weapons are for weakling peasants
Gunlance laughs at you.
Hunting horn is the only answer for a proper smash weapon.
RealDeadOne
Member
Rosalina and Girahim are really different cases though, Girahim has literally been in one game in which he ended up not even being the primary villain. Rosalina has been a recurring character since her first appearance, and is even in all of the Mario Kart games. She very well represents the Galaxy games, which are a lot more important to Mario than say, Bowser Jr's debut game, Sunshine. Hell, since Galaxy, Bowser Jr. has lost almost all of his relevance, being largely usurped by the Koopa Kids now, which is why I imagine Sakurai went with Rosalina.
A better comparison would be Ike or Roy, or Lucas, who were all "one-off" characters (or two-off in Ike's case) that got in mostly by virtue of being the newest characters in the series. But even that is different as those series introduce an entirely new cast with every game, whereas Zelda keeps a core handful of characters.
I do think Girahim has an exceptional chance due to his popularity and viability as a unique character, but looking at the list of possible Zelda additions, he's pretty far down, and he's already lost most of his relevance since he didn't appear in the next game, ALBW, he won't appear in the inevitable Majora's Mask remake, and he almost certainly won't appear in Zelda U, or likely any Zelda game ever again. Impa, Vaati, Skull Kid, hell even Tingle would make more sense than he would, and even Skull Kid didn't make it in as a character, likely due to being in only one game!
Starphoenix
Member
You know what's going to be hard? Picking the Megaman music for the game. There are so many good tracks, it's going to be hard to pack them all in. This is even worse if you're counting the spin-off series like X and Battle Network, or spin-off games like Battle and Chase and the GB series.
What about a Professor Layton + Luke dual character, the games are associated with Nintendo (there have been spin-offs on iOS + Android) and could be a Level 5 rep. Moves could involve his cane and hat, and he;s a pretty good fighter anyway, I don't know what Luke could do though, maybe he's best as an assist trophy. Special move set could involve different puzzles, and I guess so could the final smash.
I don't think I would label X or Zero or ZX spin off series, since they effectively took over one another.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
The fact that Mega Man Classic continued to run after X launched, and X after Zero, I think it's safe to call them spinoffs.